Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[942767]

Hi Paladin:

And so, plain and simple, the scriptures state the Word that was with God became flesh, and not that God became flesh, meaning that the teaching that Jesus is God incarnate is not correct.  God did not become a man, but what He has said or spoken became flesh.  And the Word was God: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. “God is love”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Pastry]

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2011,06:13)

Hi Irene: You say to Gene: Quote There are three Scriptures that state Jesus is the firstborn.  Being Gods Son He did have a beginning….. How could He be a Son and always existed.  Did your Son exist at the same time then you did??? I bet not,… And so, you acknowledge that Jesus had a beginning by your statement here, is that correct? And if the statement above is correct, when did Jesus begin to be?  The scriptures state that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.  Is this when he begin to be or did he have more than one beginning? Love in Christ, Marty

Since Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, He existed before God created everything else.
In John 1 and Col. 1 it also tells us that Jesus created everything else by the Power of Almighty God…
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
If you want to know more, there is a good article by t8 in the preexisting Debate tread…Peace Irene

Peace Irene

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 20 2011,08:26)

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2011,06:13) Hi Irene: You say to Gene: Quote There are three Scriptures that state Jesus is the firstborn.  Being Gods Son He did have a beginning….. How could He be a Son and always existed.  Did your Son exist at the same time then you did??? I bet not,… And so, you acknowledge that Jesus had a beginning by your statement here, is that correct? And if the statement above is correct, when did Jesus begin to be?  The scriptures state that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.  Is this when he begin to be or did he have more than one beginning? Love in Christ, Marty Since Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, He existed before God created everything else. In John 1 and Col. 1 it also tells us that Jesus created everything else by the Power of Almighty God… Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   If you want to know more, there is a good article by t8 in the preexisting Debate tread…Peace Irene Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

And so, Jesus was a begotten Son of God prior to his being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Pastry]

Quote

And so, Jesus was a begotten Son of God prior to his being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary?

Marty!  Jesus is the literal Son of God.  He came forth from Jehovah God and not out of the dust of the earth.  Begotten means simple born.  Jesus was born by Maria.  But He was created by God first.  Scriptures in previous post.  Then He
Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  

Notice that He was in the form of God.  God is Spirit and so Jesus was and is a Spirt Being.

Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  

Then He made in the likeness of men…..Just think if He was a man at that time, then it was not necessary to be made into the likeness of men.

Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Pastry @ May 19 2011,17:59)

Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   Then He made in the likeness of men…..Just think if He was a man at that time, then it was not necessary to be made into the likeness of men. Peace Irene

Hi Irene,

I'd like to hear Marty's answer to that question also.  He must have overlooked my post from page 135:

Quote

Okay, let's test YOUR theory about Phil 2: 6Who, being in the form of God…………while he was a human being did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,………while he was a human being 7but emptied himself,……………while he was a human being (but emptied himself of what, I might ask) taking the form of a servant,…………………while he was a human being and was made in human likeness………….while he was a ? ? ? It seems we've hit a snag ol' boy. If I have understood you wrong, please clarify how you DO understand this passage by posting it the same way I did, so there's no question about how you understand it.  (You don't need to add your commentary on what Paul was teaching and all that.  I just want you to tell me how Jesus WAS a human being when he was made into the likeness of a human being.)

Well Marty?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2011,09:34)

Just as your words and you are one and the same thing So is GOD and HIS words.  God and His word is one and the same thing.

Hi Gene,

Then John 1:14 says that God Himself became flesh and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father, right?  Who is this “Father” to whom God Himself is an “only begotten”?  

Gene, do you think that the Word is the “Son of God”?  YES or NO?

I will answer one of your points, and will only answer another one IF and WHEN you answer my bolded question DIRECTLY (and preferrably without a long speech).

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2011,09:34)

so i will ask you it “SPECIFICALLY” and ask you for a Definite answer. Do you actually think if John Meant Jesus there He would not have simply written his mane there?

John specifically says he wrote his gospel for the sole purpose of teaching that JESUS is the Son of God.  In his writings, John calls Jesus “Son of Man”, “Son of God”, “Lord”, “only begotten god”, “Christ”, “Word of God”, “Lamb of God”, “King of kings”, “Lord of lords”, “the Son”, and other titles and names.  

Now if it is clear to you he's speaking of Jesus when he calls him “Lamb”, or when he calls him “Savior”, then does your question here really prove anything?  If John didn't specifically say “Jesus” each and every time he referred to Jesus, but instead referred to him by many names and titles, why would he have had to use the name “Jesus” in 1:1 in order to mean Jesus?

Your point falls way short of being a point at all.  If John had only ever referred to Jesus by his name, then you'd have a point.  But that's not the case, is it?

I'll await your answer to my question.

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 20 2011,10:59)

Quote And so, Jesus was a begotten Son of God prior to his being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary? Marty!  Jesus is the literal Son of God.  He came forth from Jehovah God and not out of the dust of the earth.  Begotten means simple born.  Jesus was born by Maria.  But He was created by God first.  Scriptures in previous post.  Then He Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:   Notice that He was in the form of God.  God is Spirit and so Jesus was and is a Spirt Being. Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   Then He made in the likeness of men…..Just think if He was a man at that time, then it was not necessary to be made into the likeness of men. Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

But you did not answer my question, and that is was Jesus was a begotten Son of God prior to being conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary? Yes or no.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mrs:

You are not making any sense with the following comment when you say:

Quote

Begotten means simple born. Jesus was born by Maria. But He was created by God first.

Jesus was created by God first? Show where this occurred by the scriptures.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,11:46)

Quote (Pastry @ May 19 2011,17:59) Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   Then He made in the likeness of men…..Just think if He was a man at that time, then it was not necessary to be made into the likeness of men. Peace Irene Hi Irene, I'd like to hear Marty's answer to that question also.  He must have overlooked my post from page 135: Quote Okay, let's test YOUR theory about Phil 2: 6Who, being in the form of God…………while he was a human being did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,………while he was a human being 7but emptied himself,……………while he was a human being (but emptied himself of what, I might ask) taking the form of a servant,…………………while he was a human being and was made in human likeness………….while he was a ? ? ? It seems we've hit a snag ol' boy. If I have understood you wrong, please clarify how you DO understand this passage by posting it the same way I did, so there's no question about how you understand it.  (You don't need to add your commentary on what Paul was teaching and all that.  I just want you to tell me how Jesus WAS a human being when he was made into the likeness of a human being.) Well Marty?

Hi Mike:

I have already given you my understanding of this and so has Paladin.

Now, please show me where that “big word”, that you keep adding to this scripture appears in the scripture.

The scripture states:

Quote

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God,(here is where you are adding, “before he became a man”) thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

But the scripture does not say, “that he was in the form of God before he became a man”, therefore, it is an assumption on your part.

Verse 7 in the KJV state that “he made himself no reputation”, therefore, he emptied himself of the pride that could have had by virture of his position of authority as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ.

And he was made in human likeness as the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19)

Hi Mike: I have already given you my understanding of this and so has Paladin.

Maybe I'm mistaken Marty, but I don't believe any non-preexister has ever sufficiently answered this point.

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19)

Verse 7 in the KJV state that “he made himself no reputation”, therefore, he emptied himself of the pride that could have had by virture of his position of authority as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. And he was made in human likeness as the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God.

I don't understand what you're saying.  Could you PLEASE do it the way I asked you to, so I CAN understand?

I want to know how ANYONE who already IS in human likeness can be made in human likeness.

Break it down for me Marty.  Like this:

Was existing in the form of God……………..Mike, I think this part refers to………………….?

Emptied himself………………Mike, this part means…………?

Was made in the likeness of a human being……………Mike, this part refers to when he……………?

See what I'm asking?  You are not being clear at all – at least not to where I can even grasp what you're saying.

Please help me.

mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,14:28)

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19) Hi Mike: I have already given you my understanding of this and so has Paladin. Maybe I'm mistaken Marty, but I don't believe any non-preexister has ever sufficiently answered this point. Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19) Verse 7 in the KJV state that “he made himself no reputation”, therefore, he emptied himself of the pride that could have had by virture of his position of authority as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. And he was made in human likeness as the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. I don't understand what you're saying.  Could you PLEASE do it the way I asked you to, so I CAN understand? I want to know how ANYONE who already IS in human likeness can be made in human likeness. Break it down for me Marty.  Like this: Was existing in the form of God……………..Mike, I think this part refers to………………….? Emptied himself………………Mike, this part means…………? Was made in the likeness of a human being……………Mike, this part refers to when he……………? See what I'm asking?  You are not being clear at all – at least not to where I can even grasp what you're saying. Please help me. mike

Hi Mike:

I don't believe that anyone can explain it to you so that you can understand seeing that you have a pre-conceived philosophy relative to these scriptures.

But I have given you my understanding of this, and so, now, please acknowledge that “before he became a man” does not appear in this scripture, but is something that you are assuming.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Marty………They add to scriptures all the time , insert word that are not even mention in scriptures to there dogmas and false teachings. I have said that time and time again. Notice I ask a simple question to Mike , Why did not John simply say Jesus if that is what he meant in John 1:1, and look at what he call an answer. And they do not truly believe GOD the Father was truly (IN) Jesus, because they see GOD as a Person and Not a Spirit. That is because they do not know what Spirit is. They think spirit is beings of some kind, instead of intellects that form ideas and cognations in our minds.

They deny GOD was TRULY (IN) JESUS, AS Jesus said HE WAS> Because they can't understand GOD and His words are one and the same thing. Even in the face of Scriptures that say “God was (IN) Christ reconciling the world unto himself “. Nor do they believe Thomas who said “MY lord and My GOD. That was a present tense statement made by Thomas. Jesus said so clearly the FATHER WAS (IN) HIM> Why cant people believe that? IMO

peace and love to you and yours Marty……………………………………….gene

[Pastry]

Quote

Jesus was created by God first?  Show where this occurred by the scriptures.

Marty!  There are three Scriptures that shows Jesus was createde in

Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.  

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God.  Then through Jesus God created all.

Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Jesus was not only the firstborn of all creation, He also was the firstborn from the death.

Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.  

I think we at one time discussed John 1:1 to show you that it is Jesus.
In verse 14 The Word of God became flesh…
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

Notice here the last part of that verse it says:” …the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.  This also answers your question when Jesus was begotten.
Since He at that point became flesh, He was begotten before He became a man.  Again what is the definition of begotten?  Does it not mean to come forth from God?  Jesus is the only one that is the literal Son of God, not made from the dust of the earth…..
begotten means beget, come forth from the Father…to procreate or generate….that is what our Ransom House Dictionary says….
Some also think john is not talkink about Jesus in John 1, but to compare That the Word of God is jesus, we have this Scripture in

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus will come back as The Word of God. These Scriotures prove that…

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………….The beginning of the Creation of GOD in Rev 3:14……Is referencing Jesus as the Beginning of GOD'S Created Son from among Men in the Kingdom of GOD, Jesus was the First one or the beginning of this creation, this scripture has nothing to do with any prior existence of Jesus before his berth on earth.

God Created Adam and He went his separate way and consequently all man kind has also, all man kind was as a result separated from GOD, And were childern wrath Childern of an Adversarial Spirit (Satan), until Jesus was born and He was the First MAN to achieved what God had in mind for all man kind He was the very first from all creation to achieve the Goal God had in mind for all his creation.

Trinitarians and Preexistences are completely wrong in there assertions that Jesus preexisted His berth on earth that simply is not true , there is no record in scripture of any activity of Jesus' before his berth . IMO

peace and love………………………….gene

[Pastry]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 20 2011,15:47)

To All………….The beginning of the Creation of GOD in Rev 3:14……Is referencing Jesus as the Beginning of GOD'S Created Son from among Men in the Kingdom of GOD, Jesus was the First one or the beginning of this creation,  this  scripture has nothing to do with any prior existence of Jesus before his berth on earth.   God Created Adam and He went his separate way and consequently all man kind has also, all man kind was as a result separated from GOD, And were childern wrath Childern of an Adversarial Spirit (Satan), until Jesus was born  and He was the First MAN to achieved what God had in mind for all man kind He was the very first from all creation to achieve the Goal God had in mind for all his creation. Trinitarians and Preexistences are completely wrong in there assertions that Jesus preexisted His berth on earth that simply is not true , there is no record in scripture of any activity of Jesus' before his berth .  IMO peace and love………………………….gene

Gene, you are adding to Scriptures. It dies not say that in Rev. 3:14/ Besides we have Col. and Romans that also state that Jesus was the firstborn of creation…… Peace Irene

[Wispring]

I hope Paladin is OK.

[Pastry]

Quote (Wispring @ May 20 2011,17:18)

I hope Paladin is OK.

Yes, I second that….. Have you ever gotten a personal Message from Paldin? If so, you could send Him an e-mail…..I will pray for Him tonight……Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 18 2011,14:37)

Quote (Paladin @ May 17 2011,04:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,11:59) Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,05:56) That is my use of “or” where Peter said “as.” I was showing you (well, trying to show you at least) that Peter is saying that supreme kings commission all lessor men through authority bestowed by his supreme authority. That are all authorities, just some with more, some with less. Paladin, You don't need to show me this.  I already understood this from Peter's own words.  What I'm trying to get YOU to acknowledge is that Peter's use of the word “whether” did not EXCLUDE all authorities EXCEPT FOR kings or governors.  You are right that Peter means even down to the cop on the beat. And what that shows you is that the use of the word “whether” does not limit the meaning of “EVERY HUMAN INSTITUTION” to ONLY kings or governors just because those are the only two Peter specifically names by title. Are we now in agreement on this FACT? mike nope! It is not about what Peter meant, or what could be included, or what must be excluded; It is about the use of “Whether” in scripture. “Whether” is always used to present options for selection, each to the exclusion of the other; i.,e., one or the other, but not both, and not neither; one option of two, or more, or many. Tell me Mike, which of the following verses is the exception to this…………….  I've already showed you the only verse I need to.  I'm asking a simple question that you are trying hard to avoid. Peter says we should subject ourselves to EVERY HUMAN INSTITUTION, whether it be a king or a governor. My question:  Is Peter EXCLUDING all other authorities EXCEPT FOR kings and governors by his use of the word “whether”?  YES or NO? mike

Your problem Mike, is that when someone answers your question, if they don't say it like you say it, you do not consider it as an answer, but an evasion. I have answered your question, and you call it an evasion.

I will not spend any more time on your question once I have answered it, unless your rebuttal causes me to reflect upon my previous response, and reconsider, in which case, I will let you know.

Please, stop trying to get me to “say it like you say it.” The way I say it is clearer to me than the way you say it.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 20 2011,14:28)

Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19) Hi Mike: I have already given you my understanding of this and so has Paladin. Maybe I'm mistaken Marty, but I don't believe any non-preexister has ever sufficiently answered this point. Quote (942767 @ May 19 2011,21:19) Verse 7 in the KJV state that “he made himself no reputation”, therefore, he emptied himself of the pride that could have had by virture of his position of authority as God's Only Begotten Son and His Christ. And he was made in human likeness as the Christ the Only Begotten Son of the Living God. I don't understand what you're saying.  Could you PLEASE do it the way I asked you to, so I CAN understand? I want to know how ANYONE who already IS in human likeness can be made in human likeness. Break it down for me Marty.  Like this: Was existing in the form of God……………..Mike, I think this part refers to………………….? Emptied himself………………Mike, this part means…………? Was made in the likeness of a human being……………Mike, this part refers to when he……………? See what I'm asking?  You are not being clear at all – at least not to where I can even grasp what you're saying. Please help me. mike

There you go again Mike, insisting it be said like you say it or it doesn't make sense.

When a king (a human being) changes his clothes, shaves off his beard, puts on the clothes of a servant, and walks into town instead of riding his horse, he has taken the form of a servant (a human being.)

Is that too hard to understand?

Jesus, born to be a king, a commander of angels, washed the disciples feet. The king (human being) washed the disciples feet (took the form of a servant (a human being )).

[Paladin]

Quote (942767 @ May 20 2011,06:30)

Hi Paladin: And so, plain and simple, the scriptures state the Word that was with God became flesh, and not that God became flesh, meaning that the teaching that Jesus is God incarnate is not correct.  God did not become a man, but what He has said or spoken became flesh.  And the Word was God: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”.  “God is love”. Love in Christ, Marty

God sent his son to serve as a template for man. When we conform to the form of the template, we resemble his son. When we conform to the behaviour of the template, we emulate his son, and when people see us, they do not recognize us, they recognize the son of God whom we emulate. That proccess is given a name “The Logos Of God” because it was God's plan to begin with.

The key to understanding how the logos could both be with God, and be God, yet not be God, is found in John's use of the time-word “was” instead of another time-word “is.”

In the beginning was the logos; and the logos was theon [Greek form of Direct Object of preposition (was”)]; and “theos een ho logos.” Here, John is not saying the logos is the same person as ton theon, he is saying the logos was the same person as ton theon; but John later tells us the logos became not God (flesh) [1:14] This God cannot do. God cannot become “not God.”

But when God developes a concept, and gives it a name, than puts it into practice, when it developes just as he designed it to do, it becomes what we know as a “personification of his lconcept; i.e., a personification of his logos;” and “The logos became flesh” once more, each and every time a saint of God emulates the Christ, both in form and in behaviour, conforms to that template provided by God (who gave us the template, his only begotten son), we personify that logos of God yet again.

[Author]

Posts