Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

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May 17, 2011 at 9:53 am#246116

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,12:52)

Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,16:42)

Scripture does not say “He was called by the name;” it says “His name is called…”

You know only that concerning the one described as “became flesh, it is said “we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,” [John 1:14]

“As of” is not synonymous with “of.” He did not have “the glory of” – he had “the glory as of…“

Listen to yourself Paladin. You don't think the phrase “His name is called” means “His name is”?

nope! Look at Deut 25 for an example of when a man's name is called one thing, but his name is another.

“If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.

8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;
9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.
10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.”

Now, Mike, you can look into all the geneologies ever publidhed in Israel, and will never find “The house of him that hath his shoe loosed” listed in any fmaily geneology nor in any list of names anywhere. Because it is not what his name is; it is what his name is called in Israel.

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Could you tell me what 100% of sane people would think my name was if I said, “My name is called Mike”?

First I would try to ascertain if those sane people are Jews who know their own history, then I would try to take a census to determine how many of them are sane, and then I would try to see how many of them that are sane, know the story of the man who hath his shoe loosed; and only then would I ask the big one.

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And does “Glory as of” mean there was a different only begotten of the Father, and the Word's glory was AS OF the glory of this OTHER only begotten?

yes. There was the glory Jesus had as God's only begotten son. When a saint lioved his life devoted to God, so that he yielded control of his life to Jesus, and Jesus lives in him, those who see this saint, will see glory as of an only begotten son of God, because they will not see him, but will see Jesus living in him. Read your scriptures Mike.

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Paladin, have you ever heard the phrase, “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it IS a duck”?

Yes, but I don't remember it being in scripture. Therefore, it is not my standard. My standard goes something like “God said it; I believe it; that settles it.”

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Let's word that well known phrase like John worded 1:14. “If it has the walk AS OF a duck, and it has the quack AS OF a duck, then it's a duck.” The Word had the glory AS OF the only begotten from God because HE WAS the only begotten from God. Do you know of another ONLY begotten of God that the Word's glory was AS OF?

Yes, I know of a whole church full of saints having glory as of an only begotten child of God. “To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,” [Heb 12:23]

Look again at what John's reference is – “we beheld his glory”,
Whose glory? The logos who became flesh – “the glory as of the only begotten of the Father” – And what is the “logos who became flesh?”

Look once more as I outline it for you from scripture:

In 48 a.d. paul wrote:
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” [Gal 4:19]

In 55 a.d. Paul wrote: “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” [II Cor 13:5]

In 60 a.d. Paul wrote that he had preached to the whole world: “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:” [Col 1:23-24]

And that he was given a mission to “fully preach' (fulfill) the logos of God: “Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” [Col 1:25-27]

In 69 a.d. John tells us of a new (kainon) name which is to be given to resurrected Jesus: “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.” [Rev 3:12] [That word “kainon” means “New, not previously known”]

“His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The logos [Word] of God.” [Rev 19:12-13]

In 85 a.d. John wrote: “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God:” [In this verse John uses (eleeluthota perfect active accusative masculine singular form of the verb participle erxomai) The use of the perfect active participle is
to show the continuing result in an active way, of Christ coming in flesh of the saints; i.e., the personification of the logos of God.

“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” II John 7][This time john uses (erxomenon present middle or pass deponent accusative masculine singular form of verb participle erxomai) to show the ongoing effect of Christ in flesh as saints give over control of their life to Jesus.

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Are these petty points, along with some imagined difference between the words “logos” and “rhema”, your big rebuttals to Jesus' clear and direct words, “I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN”?

Nope! They are not “petty points” Mike, which you would do well to remember, as they are the words of instruction from God through Paul to us.

AS for logos and reema difference being “some imagined difference” – Paul tells us the reema of God is the Holy Spirit, in Eph 6:17 – “Which” modifies “Spirit” not sword. And John tells us “the logos was God” [John 1:1]; so you have the logos was God, but the reema of God is the Spirit of God.

I would not scoff so loud Mike, I think you would be better served to learns some scripture, and stay away from those scholars of yours.

May 17, 2011 at 9:56 am#246117

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,11:45)

Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,05:51)

Peter is simply pointing out that the king is supreme, and all others are commissioned, whether governors, or cops on the beat.

Okay. So was I right that Peter's use of “whether” did not exclude “cops on the beat”, even though they were not specifically mentioned?

I'll let the readers sort it all out. The record is still there for all to read.

May 17, 2011 at 10:02 am#246118

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,11:59)

Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,05:56)

That is my use of “or” where Peter said “as.” I was showing you (well, trying to show you at least) that Peter is saying that supreme kings commission all lessor men through authority bestowed by his supreme authority. That are all authorities, just some with more, some with less.

Paladin,

You don't need to show me this. I already understood this from Peter's own words. What I'm trying to get YOU to acknowledge is that Peter's use of the word “whether” did not EXCLUDE all authorities EXCEPT FOR kings or governors. You are right that Peter means even down to the cop on the beat.

And what that shows you is that the use of the word “whether” does not limit the meaning of “EVERY HUMAN INSTITUTION” to ONLY kings or governors just because those are the only two Peter specifically names by title.

Are we now in agreement on this FACT?

mike

nope! It is not about what Peter meant, or what could be included, or what must be excluded; It is about the use of “Whether” in scripture.

“Whether” is always used to present options for selection, each to the exclusion of the other; i.,e., one or the other, but not both, and not neither; one option of two, or more, or many.

Tell me Mike, which of the following verses is the exception to this:

I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. -Genesis 18:21

And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD
had made his journey prosperous or not. -Genesis 24:21

And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel
thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not. -Genesis 27:21

That which was torn of beasts I brought not unto thee; I bare the loss
of it; of my hand didst thou require it, whether stolen by day, or
stolen by night. -Genesis 31:39

And he said to him, Go, I pray thee, see whether it be well with thy
brethren, and well with the flocks; and bring me word again. So he
sent him out of the vale of Hebron, and he came to Shechem. -Genesis
37:14

And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their
father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's
coat or no. -Genesis 37:32

Send one of you, and let him fetch your brother, and ye shall be kept
in prison, that your words may be proved, whether there be any truth
in you: or else by the life of Pharaoh surely ye are spies. -Genesis
42:16

And Israel said, Wherefore dealt ye so ill with me, as to tell the man
whether ye had yet a brother? -Genesis 43:6

And Moses went and returned to Jethro his father in law, and said unto
him, Let me go, I pray thee, and return unto my brethren which are in
Egypt, and see whether they be yet alive. And Jethro said to Moses, Go
in peace. -Exodus 4:18

Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for
whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut
off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born
in the land. -Exodus 12:19

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven
for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every
day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
-Exodus 16:4

There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or
shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the
trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount. -Exodus 19:13

Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to
this judgment shall it be done unto him. -Exodus 21:31

If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox,
or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double. -Exodus 22:4

If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be
brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his
neighbour's goods. -Exodus 22:8

For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep,
for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another
challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the
judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto
his neighbour. -Exodus 22:9

All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy
cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. -Exodus 34:19

And if his oblation be a sacrifice of peace offering, if he offer it
of the herd; whether it be a male or female, he shall offer it without
blemish before the LORD. -Lev 3:1

And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness,
whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he
shall bear his iniquity. -Lev 5:1

Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an
unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of
unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall
be unclean, and guilty. -Lev 5:2

Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of
beast, in any of your dwellings. -Lev 7:26

And upon whatsoever any of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it
shall be unclean; whether it be any vessel of wood, or raiment, or
skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel it be, wherein any work is done, it
must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it
shall be cleansed. -Lev 11:32

And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be
unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken
down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you. -Lev 11:35

The garment also that the plague of leprosy is in, whether it be a
woollen garment, or a linen garment; -Lev 13:47

Whether it be in the warp, or woof; of linen, or of woollen; whether
in a skin, or in any thing made of skin; -Lev 13:48

He shall therefore burn that garment, whether warp or woof, in woollen
or in linen, or any thing of skin, wherein the plague is: for it is a
fretting leprosy; it shall be burnt in the fire. -Lev 13:52

And the priest shall look on the plague, after that it is washed: and,
behold, if the plague have not changed his colour, and the plague be
not spread; it is unclean; thou shalt burn it in the fire; it is fret
inward, whether it be bare within or without. -Lev 13:55

And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run
with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his
uncleanness. -Lev 15:3

And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh
month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and
do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a
stranger that sojourneth among you: -Lev 16:29

And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which
was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a
stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water,
and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean. -Lev 17:15

The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter
of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their
nakedness thou shalt not uncover. -Lev 18:9

And whether it be cow or ewe, ye shall not kill it and her young both

in one day. -Lev 22:28

And the priest shall value it, whether it be good or bad: as thou
valuest it, who art the priest, so shall it be. -Lev 27:12

And when a man shall sanctify his house to be holy unto the LORD, then
the priest shall estimate it, whether it be good or bad: as the priest
shall estimate it, so shall it stand. -Lev 27:14

Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD'S
firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is
the LORD'S. -Lev 27:26

And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of
the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. -Lev
27:30

He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change
it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof
shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. -Lev 27:33

And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and
that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed:
whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they
journeyed. -Numbers 9:21

Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud
tarried upon the tabernacle, remaining thereon, the children of Israel
abode in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up,
they journeyed. -Numbers 9:22

And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD'S hand waxed short? thou
shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.
-Numbers 11:23

And see the land, what it is ; and the people that dwelleth therein,
whether they be strong or weak, few or many; -Numbers 13:18

And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad;
and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in
strong holds; -Numbers 13:19

And what the land is , whether it be fat or lean, whether there be
wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the
fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes.
-Numbers 13:20

But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in
the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul
shall be cut off from among his people. -Numbers 15:30

Every thing that openeth the matrix in all flesh, which they bring
unto the LORD, whether it be of men or beasts, shall be thine:
nevertheless the firstborn of man shalt thou surely redeem, and the
firstling of unclean beasts shalt thou redeem. -Numbers 18:15

For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since
the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side
of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as
this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? -Deut 4:32

And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee
these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove
thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his
commandments, or no. -Deut 8:2

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer
of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love
the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deut
13:3

And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that
offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto
the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw. -Deut 18:3

If a bird's nest chance to be before thee in the way in any tree, or
on the ground, whether they be young ones, or eggs, and the dam
sitting upon the young, or upon the eggs, thou shalt not take the dam
with the young: -Deut 22:6

Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy,
whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy
land within thy gates: -Deut 24:14

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day
whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that
were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in
whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the
LORD. -Joshua 24:15

That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way
of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
-Jdgs 2:22

And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would
hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their
fathers by the hand of Moses. -Jdgs 3:4

Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is
better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are
threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over
you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh. -Jdgs 9:2

And they said unto him, Ask counsel, we pray thee, of God, that we may
know whether our way which we go shall be prosperous. -Jdgs 18:5

And he said, Blessed be thou of the LORD, my daughter: for thou hast
shewed more kindness in the latter end than at the beginning, inasmuch
as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich. -Ruth 3:10

And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I
said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child
may live? -2 Sam 12:22

And Ittai answered the king, and said, As the LORD liveth, and as my
lord the king liveth, surely in what place my lord the king shall be,
whether in death or life, even there also will thy servant be. -2 Sam
15:21

And he said, Whether they be come out for peace, take them alive; or
whether they be come out for war, take them alive. -1 Kings 20:18

Now the men did diligently observe whether any thing would come from
him, and did hastily catch it: and they said, Thy brother Ben-hadad.
Then he said, Go ye, bring him. Then Ben-hadad came forth to him; and
he caused him to come up into the chariot. -1 Kings 20:33

And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was
in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them,
Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of
this disease. -2 Kings 1:2

And Asa cried unto the LORD his God, and said, LORD, it is nothing
with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power:
help us, O LORD our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go
against this multitude. O LORD, thou art our God; let not man prevail
against thee. -2 Chron 14:11

That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to
death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. -2 Chron 15:13

And these were they which went up from Tel-melah, Tel-harsa, Cherub,
Addan, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's house, and
their seed, whether they were of Israel: -Ezra 2:59

Now therefore, if it seem good to the king, let there be search made
in the king's treasure house, which is there at Babylon, whether it be
so, that a decree was made of Cyrus the king to build this house of
God at Jerusalem, and let the king send his pleasure to us concerning
this matter. -Ezra 5:17

And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the law of the king,
let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death,
or to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.
-Ezra 7:26

And these were they which went up also from Telmelah, Telharesha,
Cherub, Addon, and Immer: but they could not shew their father's
house, nor their seed, whether they were of Israel. -Neh 7:61

Now it came to pass, when they spake daily unto him, and he hearkened
not unto them, that they told Haman, to see whether Mordecai's matters
would stand: for he had told them that he was a Jew. -Esther 3:4

All the king's servants, and the people of the king's provinces, do
know, that whosoever, wh
ether man or woman, shall come unto the king
into the inner court, who is not called, there is one law of his to
put him to death, except such to whom the king shall hold out the
golden sceptre, that he may live: but I have not been called to come
in unto the king these thirty days. -Esther 4:11

For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall
there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another
place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who
knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
-Esther 4:14

When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he
hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a
nation, or against a man only: -Job 34:29

Should it be according to thy mind? he will recompense it, whether
thou refuse, or whether thou choose; and not I: therefore speak what
thou knowest. -Job 34:33

He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for
mercy. -Job 37:13

Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and
whether it be right. -Prov 20:11

If a wise man contendeth with a foolish man, whether he rage or laugh,
there is no rest. -Prov 29:9

And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? yet shall he
have rule over all my labour wherein I have laboured, and wherein I
have shewed myself wise under the sun. This is also vanity. -Eccl 2:19

The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much:
but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep. -Eccl 5:12

In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine
hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that,
or whether they both shall be alike good. -Eccl 11:6

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing,
whether it be good, or whether it be evil. -Eccl 12:14

I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley,
and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded.
-Song 6:11

Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish,
whether the tender grape appear, and the pomegranates bud forth: there
will I give thee my loves. -Song 7:12

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore
do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail,
and all faces are turned into paleness? -Jer 30:6

Whether it be good, or whether it be evil, we will obey the voice of
the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us,
when we obey the voice of the LORD our God. -Jer 42:6

And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for
they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a
prophet among them. -Ezekiel 2:5

And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or
whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious. -Ezekiel 2:7

And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy
people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD;
whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear. -Ezekiel 3:11

The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or
torn, whether it be fowl or beast. -Ezekiel 44:31

For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say,
Arise, and walk? -Matthew 9:5

Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him,
The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the
publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
-Matthew 21:31

Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple
that sanctifieth the gold? -Matthew 23:17

Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar
that sanctifieth the gift? -Matthew 23:19

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto
him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou
be the Christ, the Son of God. -Matthew 26:63

The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye
that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. -Matthew 27:21

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
-Matthew 27:49

Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be
forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? -Mark
2:9

And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day;
that they might accuse him. -Mark 3:2

And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed,
and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias
will come to take him down. -Mark 15:36

And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the
centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. -Mark
15:44

And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their
hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; -Luke 3:15

Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise
up and walk? -Luke 5:23

And the scribes and Pharisees watched him whether he would heal on the
sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him. -Luke 6:7

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first,
and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? -Luke
14:28

Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down
first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him
that cometh against him with twenty thousand? -Luke 14:31

For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth?
is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
-Luke 22:27

When Pilate heard of Galilee, he asked whether the man were a
Galilaean. -Luke 23:6

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it
be of God, or whether I speak of myself. -John 7:17

He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one
thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. -John 9:25

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all
men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, -Acts 1:24

But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in
the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
-Acts 4:19

And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so
much? And she said, Yea, for so much. -Acts 5:8

And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he
found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring
them bound unto Jerusalem. -Acts 9:2

And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were
lodged there. -Acts 10:18

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they
received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the
scriptures daily, whether those things were so. -Acts 17:11

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be
any Holy Ghost. -Acts 19:2

And because I doubted of such manner of questions, I asked him whether
he would go to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these matters. -Acts
25:20

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of
obedience unto righteousness? -Romans 6:16

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to
us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of
faith; -Romans 12:6

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die
unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
-Romans 14:8

And I bapti
zed also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not
whether I baptized any other. -1 Cor 1:16

Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death,
or things present, or things to come; all are yours; -1 Cor 3:22

For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or
how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? -1 Cor 7:16

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in
earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) -1 Cor 8:5

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the
glory of God. -1 Cor 10:31

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be
Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made
to drink into one Spirit. -1 Cor 12:13

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one
member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. -1 Cor 12:26

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall
fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be
knowledge, it shall vanish away. -1 Cor 13:8

And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp,
except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known
what is piped or harped? -1 Cor 14:7

Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
-1 Cor 15:11

And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation,
which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we
also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation
and salvation. -2 Cor 1:6

For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you,
whether ye be obedient in all things. -2 Cor 2:9

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be
accepted of him. -2 Cor 5:9

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every
one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath
done, whether it be good or bad. -2 Cor 5:10

For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be
sober, it is for your cause. -2 Cor 5:13

Whether any do inquire of Titus, he is my partner and fellowhelper
concerning you: or our brethren be inquired of, they are the
messengers of the churches, and the glory of Christ. -2 Cor 8:23

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God
knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. -2 Cor 12:2

And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I
cannot tell: God knoweth;) -2 Cor 12:3

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except
ye be reprobates? -2 Cor 13:5

Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he
receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. -Eph 6:8

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in
truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will
rejoice. -Phil 1:18

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I
shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also
Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by
death. -Phil 1:20

Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ:
that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your
affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving
together for the faith of the gospel; -Phil 1:27

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are
in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or
dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by
him, and for him: -Col 1:16

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to
reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be
things in earth, or things in heaven. -Col 1:20

Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live
together with him. -1 Thes 5:10

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have
been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. -2 Thes 2:15

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake:
whether it be to the king, as supreme; -1 Peter 2:13

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they
are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
-1 John 4:1

May 17, 2011 at 11:53 am#246121

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,12:13)

Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,16:07)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2011,11:10)

Quote (Paladin @ May 15 2011,16:11)

And “ho logos een pros ton theon” the logos was with the God. So ho logos was not the same one with whom he was with.

Hi Paladin,

Isn't that what I just said to Gene? Ho logos is NOT the same One that he was with. Therefore TWO are mentioned in John 1:1, and only ONE of them is “ton theon” (THE God).

I thought you said you know the Greek Mike?

“Ton theon” and 'theos” are references to the same person.

Do you know why?

Hmmmm…………..seems to me like you're sending mixed signals here. In your first quote above, you say the Word was NOT the same one as the One he was with. (Notice that you do say “HE”, not “IT”. )

Now in this post, you seem to be saying they ARE the same person.

So yes, I would like to know why you make this claim.[/quote]

Ho logos was with ton theon, and was theos. Theon and theos are one and the same. Ton Theon is the direct object of “with.” Theos is the predicate nominative of the subject
“ho logos.” The importance of this is found in the fact that no verse says “ho logos is theos;” the form of the verb is critical here Mike, because the logos changed by becoming flesh, while theos did not.

This is how we know John is not talking about a pre-existant Jesus being God and becoming flesh; which is a prevalent doctrine in the church today.

And it might have been what you said to Gene, I will let the readers judge that one. It is still there to read.

May 17, 2011 at 11:54 am#246122

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 17 2011,13:03)

Quote (Paladin @ May 16 2011,16:42)

“ws” is a Greek particle of comparison. John is telling us that when the saint so lives that he gives his life over to Jesus, and Jesus Christ lives in his flesh, “We beheld the glory, as of an only begotten son” becasue it is no longer the saint that people see, but Christ living in him.

Well then WHO EXACTLY IS “the only begotten Son of God”? Was it the Word of God that lived IN Jesus Christ? Or was it the man Jesus Christ?

It was the resurrected Jesus, having been raised from the dead.

May 17, 2011 at 12:33 pm#246125

Pastry

Participant

Quote

God was not saying this is the way to learn, Irene, he said this was the only way Israel could handle the truth; and still they could not understand it; but God's word was unto Israel, here a little, there a little, that they might go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken.

“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.” [Isa 28:11-13]

Most scholars I know will teach young Christians that this is the way to learn and apply scripture; but it is actually the opposite of what God is saying about Israel, and the learning proccess.

So tell me don't you take Scriptures out of both the Old Test. and the New to prove the trinity? Also as far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, we only take scriptures mostly from the New Test.
And I am not a young Christian either…. God called us out of the Catholic Church in 1985……Since we also left the W.W.Church of God, since Mr. Armstrong died, they believe in the trinity again. In spite of staying Home God has shown us new truths…..
I do find it interesting though, that you will find anything just so you don't have to say 'I was wrong/”
Peace Irene

May 17, 2011 at 1:20 pm#246126

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike………..In (the) beginning , the as you know is a definite article, right?, so we must establish which beginning we are talking about here, I propose it is the very beginning of (all ) things , why?, because if it were relating to a different beginning the definite article (THE) would not be used there, but a specific article would have been used their describing which beginning he was talking about., IMO, remember scripture say GOD “Said” another words he Spoke thing into existence , His word is powerful. John said the Word was with God and WAS GOD. the reason he used the word Was is because he was referencing the past or the beginning, so he had to use the word WAS there, right?, I still maintain GOD and His Word are one and the same thing , just as you and your words are one and the same thing, John i believe is representing God and his word as one and the same in the sense that you and your word are one and the same God and His words are one, now if you have the words of God (IN) you you are ONE With GOD , just as Jesus said He and the Father are ONE. The scripture that says the Word Became Flesh , does not mean a word or Spirit can literally become flesh , it (the word) came to be and dwell in the human flesh and Jesus was the first one that happened to, and because God's words are life life was In Jesus the man. “if the words of him that raised Christ Jesus from the grave dwell (IN) you (IT) shall (ALSO) quicken you Mortal body”.

I do not see Jesus as the anointing, I.E the CHRISTOS, but the ANOINTED ONE of GOD. Paul i believe some times is expressing the Christos and not Jesus the person, and i believe this can get confusing at times. but if we remember it was the Spirit of GOD that raised Jesus from the Grave and that this Spirit is called the Anointing or Christos from GOD, we can see GOD (IN) Jesus by his very Spirt, and so when Jesus the man said the “THE FATHER WAS (IN) HIM” he truly meant it, Remember “the father who is (IN) me HE Doth the works”. God who is Spirit can dwell (IN) his creation , He came to Be (IN) Jesus , God and His word is one and the same, Thomas came to see that when he said “MY Lord (AND) MY GOD” Thomas full well knew Jesus was not his GOD but he came to see GOD was trully Present (IN) Jesus and there were represented two Being in the One body Jesus (and ) God the Father. “believe you not that the Father is (IN) me , if you don't believe that then believe the Miracles , Jesus wanted them to come to understand God the Father was truly (IN) Him. Jesus was not the Logos Jesus had the Logos (IN) him. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

May 17, 2011 at 1:38 pm#246128

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 17 2011,01:48)

Paladin………..Just for my clarification, Jesus said GOD was a Spirit, as i believe you also believe, then he said , The “WORDS” i am telling you ARE spirit and life. My problem is separating GOD from His word, it is like trying to separate a man from his words. Jesus also said the Father was in Him. This show the very presents of GOD himself residing (IN) Jesus right. would that not be the case brother, i can not yet comprehend how a being and his word can be seperated. So i see it as God in all and Through all brother. What is you understanding on this Paladin?.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………gene

Hello Brother;

What Jesus actually said, according to the Greek is “God is spirit.” Neither “a” nor “the.” God is not limited to being “a spirit, as though there are other spirits that are more than God. God is spirit, and the father of spirits.[Heb 12:9]

There are two verses that testify to the issue you raise brother, and they are John 6:63 and Eph 6:17. I will give you in reverse order;

First of all, Paul tells us in Eph 6:17, that the reema of God is the Spirit of God (Being as all spirits are of God); then John tells us – “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the reema that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” [John 6:63]

Once God makes a declaration, and someone tries to ignore its consequences by going in rebellion against that declaration, God often simply blocks that persons way, interrupting his intentions, and frustrating his endeavors.

One example I can think of is Balaam's donkey; God sent an angel to frustrate Balaam, who was determined to go against God's declaration. Balaam beat the donkey till God caused the donkey to speak to ask Balaam “why are you beating me?”
I can imagine the look on Balaam's face, and am glad God has not called me out publickly for all of the times I have tried to get around his proclamations and rules. Instead, he has shown me mercy beyond expectation, and blessings beyond discovery; and I will ever so testify.

God's word, once it has gone out of his mouth, is as though it is a separate entity, because it will not return to God unfulfilled – “So shall my reema be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” [Isa 55:11]

God can send his spirit to accomplish a thing, and so also God can send his reema to accomplish a thing; sometimes using it as he would render an enemy with a sword, which he says is his spirit, his reema; – “And thou, son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, The sword, the sword is drawn: for the slaughter it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering: 29 Whiles they see vanity unto thee, whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of the wicked, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end. 30 Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee in the place where thou wast created, in the land of thy nativity.” Eze 21:26

God has told man in two covenants that his reema is his spirit, and is used like a sword, to both attack and defend against error, or against enemies of God.

Now, he tells us of his logos, that when we yield ourself to Christ, Christ will live in us, so that others will see glory, as of an only begotten son; becasue as we fade, He shines forth, giving glory to God by our life.

You were close brother, God's word, whether reema or logos, becomes a separate tool or weapon according to how God has deployed it in the hands of his saints.

May 17, 2011 at 1:47 pm#246129

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ May 17 2011,23:33)

Quote

Most scholars I know will teach young Christians that this is the way to learn and apply scripture; but it is actually the opposite of what God is saying about Israel, and the learning proccess.

Is that your goal dear sister? To see in print, paladin admitting to being wrong?”

Is your soul not fed, do you not feel full just learning what God has to say about “Christ in me” being “The Logos Of God” and Paul telling us how to be a part of that glorious presentation of God's justification of his creatures?

When I am wrong, and recognize it to be so, I will have no problem making it publickly known. But I will not do so just to satisfy the whim of one who has strange spiritual appetites.

May 17, 2011 at 4:45 pm#246130

Pastry

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ May 18 2011,00:47)

Quote (Pastry @ May 17 2011,23:33)

Quote

Most scholars I know will teach young Christians that this is the way to learn and apply scripture; but it is actually the opposite of what God is saying about Israel, and the learning proccess.

Is that your goal dear sister? To see in print, paladin admitting to being wrong?”

When I am wrong, and recognize it to be so, I will have no problem making it publickly known. But I will not do so just to satisfy the whim of one who has strange spiritual appetites.

Oh, I agree Brother…. i don't need your apology… Its just that I don't like it in a Christian when they think they know it all. There is not one time that you said ' I agree.' And if you did tell me which post…….. My believe is that ALL HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, that includes ME and YOU…Can You find one single doctrine besides the trinity, You agree with Me on??? Also you were implying that I am a young Christians, which is not so,… You see all these thinks you say to me, I don't like in you. I really hope and I have prayed that one day soon, we can agree on something…. and BTW I mean no harm to anyone…
The bell will ring one day for you and me, then we will know all truths….look at the beautiful Song thehappyman put up on “Praise and Worship to God' tread…
Peace Irene

May 17, 2011 at 10:31 pm#246142

Paladin

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ May 18 2011,03:45)

Quote (Paladin @ May 18 2011,00:47)

Quote (Pastry @ May 17 2011,23:33)

Quote

Most scholars I know will teach young Christians that this is the way to learn and apply scripture; but it is actually the opposite of what God is saying about Israel, and the learning proccess.

So tell me don't you take Scriptures out of both the Old Test. and the New to prove the trinity? Also as far as the preexisting of Jesus goes, we only take scriptures mostly from the New Test.

And I am not a young Christian either…. God called us out of the Catholic Church in 1985……Since we also left the W.W.Church of God, since Mr. Armstrong died, they believe in the trinity again. In spite of staying Home God has shown us new truths…..

I do find it interesting though, that you will find anything just so you don't have to say 'I was wrong/”
Peace Irene

Is that your goal dear sister? To see in print, paladin admitting to being wrong?”

When I am wrong, and recognize it to be so, I will have no problem making it publickly known. But I will not do so just to satisfy the whim of one who has strange spiritual appetites.

Also you were implying that I am a young Christians, which is not so,… You see all these thinks you say to me, I don't like in you. I really hope and I have prayed that one day soon, we can agree on something…. and BTW I mean no harm to anyone…

The bell will ring one day for you and me, then we will know all truths….look at the beautiful Song thehappyman put up on “Praise and Worship to God' tread…

Peace Irene

Did it ever occur to you Irene, if I knew it all” I would not need several days to respond to some of your posts. I would already know it all. I would have no need for research.

If I knew it all, I could just plug in the total truth, and both you and Mike would rejoice in the new truth made clear.

I not only do not know it all, I do not know even those things which are mine by faith. If I did, it would not be faith, it would be knowledge.

Just because I assert with assurance, those things I understand by faith, and will not admit to errors based upon another person's perspective about truths I have spent a lifetime persuing, does not mean I do not have doubts, nor that I “think I know it all.”

No, my friend, I only know I cannot give over to something just because it has a popular concensus; or because it is agreed to by scholars; nor yet, because it is the latest fad on the market. And no, these are not accusations, just as I did not say you are a young Christian, (though I perceive all Christians as “children” of God) I said Isaiah's admonition was used by some teachers to address young Christians as the way to learn.

I think my remark may have been misunderstood, because I have re-read what I posted, and your response, and can see where it might be a bit cloudy as to what I was saying, or rather, intending to say.

God said that the people who were his children were being fed doctrine here a little , there a little, precept upon precept, and line upon line, so they would fall backwards and be snared. The reason God said that is because his people were adults, not babes, who need taught in little pieces.

In fact Peter said “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:” So I must clear up what I failed to make clear earlier; God's admonition to the Jews was because the adults were behaving like children, as they knew the laws, and all things pertaining to the covenant by the time they were teenagers, and had no need to be taught again, the first principles of Judaism.

Christians, though, are taken as adults, and must become babes, to be taught here a little, there a litte, precept upon precept, line upon line, until they grow to perfection, to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I do hope this clears that issue up. If not, ask and I will try again.

What I said that needed clarification:

Quote

Most scholars I know will teach young Christians that this is the way to learn and apply scripture; but it is actually the opposite of what God is saying about Israel, and the learning proccess

I should have said that what was correct training practice for young Christians was not correct for grown-up Jews.

Thank you for questioning this Irene.

Grace and Hope to you and yours from me and mine.

May 18, 2011 at 3:31 am#246152