Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,14:30)

Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,20:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike Hi Mike: He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible.  And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption. Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty Marty can you send something what you do not have ? I can't  ,can you ? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Can you read the scripture? Does it not say “God sent forth his Son made of a woman, made under the Law”?

It does not say he sent forth his Son prior to being made of a woman.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,19:04)

Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,14:30) Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,20:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike Hi Mike: He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible.  And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption. Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty Marty can you send something what you do not have ? I can't  ,can you ? Pierre Hi Pierre: Can you read the scripture?  Does it not say “God sent forth his Son made of a woman, made under the Law”? It does not say he sent forth his Son prior to being made of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

is this the only scripture in the bible that talks about the coming of the son of God and also Paul letters in col;1;15-17

why are you try to reject the son of God ?

if he would be a mere men he could not save anyone not even himself.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,20:03)

Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”,

Hi Marty,

I agree with this.  No one here has ever claimed that Jesus did not come forth from Mary according to the flesh.  Now, where does this scripture say that the ages WEREN'T created through him?  Where does it say he DIDN'T have glory alongside his God before the founding of the world?

Are you starting to get the picture?  You guys bend over backwards to show us scriptures that say Jesus was at one time a human being.  But we have never denied this at any time.

Yet you have not shown us one scripture that prohibits him from existing with glory in the form of God alongside his God before the creation of the earth.  Because these are also words from the scriptures, Marty.  You can't just show the ones saying Jesus was a human being and ignore the ones that say all things in heaven and on earth were created through HIM (not “the thought of him in his God's head”).

We acknowledge the fact that Jesus was “predestined” and “foreordained”.  They are the words of scripture, so why wouldn't we accept them?  But the fact is that being foreordained to come as a savior doesn't prohibit him from pre-existing.  The fact that he was made of a woman doesn't prohibit him from pre-existing this occurance.  The fact that God knew he would be the firstborn of many brothers doesn't prohibit him from pre-existing.

Marty, do you or do you not actually have any scripture at all that WOULD prohibit Jesus from pre-existing?

Because so far, you haven't shown us one.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………..How about where God said he would bring forth Jesus from among their brethren the Isrealites. Now where does it say He would bring forth a “Preexisting Being”?, no not any scripture nor did anyone else say that So if you say Jesus preexisted his berth one earth then the burden of (PROOF) belongs to you not us to prove he did not but You to Prove with any Specific Scripture he did exist. Why keep trying to turn things around and try to put that on the ones who disagree with you, when you have no true scripture that “Specifically say” such an import thing as “a incarnate Being” did really happen , You have never produce ONE SCRIPTURE that says anything about an “Incarnation process ever taking Place in the history of all mankind, Not Jesus ore anyone else, the only one who can into the flesh was GOD or the Logos called in scripture the FATHER BY Jesus, and Jesus said the Father was in Him through that process and can be in all who have recieved Him into themselves they are the Logos also in the Flesh as Paladin has brought out.

Mike you will never grow as long as you hold on to those false teachings of the Gnostic's and Trinitarians Preexistence beliefs. IMO, Jesus was not “THE” Logos he had (IT) (IN) him and if you have IT in you then the Logos of GOD is in you also Just as it was in Jesus the Christ or LOGOS of GOD. The Logos is the common denominator that puts us all in God together with Jesus and the Father. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………..gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2011,09:41)

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,15:22) Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,11:29) Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,17:30) Hi: The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[ Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. this scripture confirm that Christ was preexisting; since scriptures are showing Christ to be the first born of all creation ,God made sure that Christ would be the first born of the dead . so Christ is and will be first in all things .that is what Paul explains. Pierre All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. paladin you have become a smooth talker ,but your answer does not cut any wood,you forget or do not see the other scriptures that are not in your favor, so you are a slick talker not a true one. Pierre

Terricca………..Again with the Character Assignations and insults, Seem to be your expertise here as it was when you first started. Paladin has taken every effort to clearly explain exactly what he was saying and been extremely patient taking your insults as he has done with all who are here. You ought to all be ashame of you ignorant and insulting behaviors. IMO

gene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Paladin,

I'm hesitant to do this, for it seems when we get down to the nitty gritty, you choose to avoid answering my points, claiming that I didn't speak to you nicely enough or whatever.  I will give it a try on two or three of your points, and see if you stay with the discussion this time.

Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14) But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times. And just what do you think prophecies are? If God prophesied that Mike would be saved by obeying the gospel, would not Mikes' prophesied goings forth be from of old through the prophecy?

Ah, but Micah wasn't prophesying about future “goings forth” was he?  He was prophesying about the future Messiah, whose goings forth had already been from ancient times.

Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)

The same word describing the ancient times, also describes ancient mountains, ancient landmarks, ancient boundaries, and ancient civilizations. Do you think they were all pre-existant entities?

Now why on earth would I think that?    What I would think is that they had been around from ANCIENT TIMES, which is why they are ANCIENT landmarks or mountains or whatever.  This is the same reasoning that would lead me to believe that the origin of Jesus was from ANCIENT times………because it says so.

Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14) And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being. You need to consider exaqctly what was being said in Phil 2:5-8. First of all, “being in a form of God” did not change when he “took upon him a form of a servant. It says nothing about his form changing.

What exactly did he “empty himself” of?

Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)

When Jesus, who was born to be a king [John 18:37], and could have commanded angels [mat 26:53]; instead, washed the disciples feet, thus taking on him the form of a servant, But his form as king and angel commander did not alter one bit. And neither did his being in a form of God. As a matter of course, being the son of God made him a form of God, without making him God. You cannot be both a thing and a form of the thing, at the same time.

I don't claim Jesus is God and never have, so your last point is wasted on me.  All I need to know from you about Phil 2, is at what point was he “made in the likeness of a human being”?  Do you see that there is a string of events that took place?  He WAS existing in the form of God.  He THEN emptied himself.  He THEN was made in the likeness of a human being.  Figure out that last part for me.

Quote (Paladin @ May 09 2011,06:41)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14) And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world. Actually John says no such thing. Just because “para” is sometimes translated “beside” does not mean para means “along side of.” It can also mean “by way of promise” as recorded in Acts 2:33 – “Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received [para] of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

Not exactly Paladin.  Here's what is meant by the use of “para” in Acts 2:33:  (pará) usually adds the overtone, “from close beside”

So Acts 2:33 says that Jesus had been exalted to the right hand of God – about as “close beside” God as one can get – and had recieved the promise of the Holy Spirit “from close beside” God, and then proceeded to pour that Spirit out on his disciples.

Paladin, you have again butchered the meaning of the Greek words – just like you tried to do with Psalm 138:2.  And that's not cool, because a lot of the members here don't take the time to check if what you're claiming is legit.  You are misleading people here, and they are believing you.

The word “epangelian”, which means “promise”, is not even in John 17:5.  And your claim that it means “by way of promise” doesn't even work in Acts 2:33, which DOES have the word “epangelian” in it.  The word “para” IS sometimes translated as “by”, as in “I'm standing BY you”, but not “by way of”.  And even if it was, then Acts 2:33 would be saying “and having received [para/BY WAY OF] the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost”.  See?  Even IF “by way of” was accurate, it wouldn't be saying “by way of PROMISE”, but “by way of THE FATHER”.  And since John 17:5 doesn't even have the word “promise” in it, there is no way Jesus is speaking of a promise God made to him.

You seem to post many inaccurate things about the Greek language, and I sure hope it is by accident.

Paladin, in John 17:5, Jesus asks God to glorify him now IN HIS PRESENCE with the glory he had IN HIS PRESENCE before the creation of the world.  Your “para” claim has been debunked.  Do you have something else to change the clear meaning of this scripture?

That's enough for now.  Let's see if you address these points before I address any more of yours, okay?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 09 2011,20:38)

Mike…………..How about where God said he would bring forth Jesus from among their brethren the Isrealites.

What about it?  God did what he said, right?  

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 09 2011,20:38)

So if you say Jesus preexisted his berth one earth then the burden of (PROOF) belongs to you

He is the firstborn of all creation because all other things, whether in heaven or on earth, were created through him.

There's your burden of proof answered, Gene.  Now, you have a direct question from a couple of pages back waiting for you.  If you choose not to answer my questions to you, then please also choose not to post anything at all to me.

Thanks,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 09 2011,20:54)

Paladin has taken every effort to clearly explain exactly what he was saying and been extremely patient taking your insults as he has done with all who are here. You ought to all be ashame of you ignorant and insulting behaviors. IMO

Gene,

Paladin has also consistently posted misinformation about the Greek words of scripture – as can be clearly seen in my last post to him. And you guys are lapping it up as if he is a scholar or something -without even checking if what he's saying is legit. If anyone should be ashamed of themselves, it should by you guys.

[terraricca]

Gene

Quote

Terricca………..Again with the Character Assignations and insults, Seem to be your expertise here as it was when you first started. Paladin has taken every effort to clearly explain exactly what he was saying and been extremely patient taking your insults as he has done with all who are here. You ought to all be ashame of you ignorant and insulting behaviors. IMO gene

we have gone trough with your opinions ,it like this; if we say this car is color black you would say no it is in the shade and so it shows black ,if we say it is white you would say no it is in the light and shine white,even if we show you that in the scriptures it is black or withe, you guys will just not accept scriptures unless it is your interpretation.so be it .

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 10 2011,09:22)

Quote All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. That is not so… Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead….. Peace Irene

If I tell you I am going to share with you and your husband, all of the treasure of my home, whether it is my front yard or my porch, would you expect to have a claim on my domestic treasure in the backyard of my home?

Have I not made it clear when I used a limitimg parameter,
“Whether?” When I said “all of the treasure whether it is my front yard or my porch? Do you not understand that the phrase “all of the treasure of my home” has been modified by the limiting parameter “Whether?”

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16]

The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.”

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2011,09:41)

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,15:22) Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,11:29) Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,17:30) Hi: The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[ Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. this scripture confirm that Christ was preexisting; since scriptures are showing Christ to be the first born of all creation ,God made sure that Christ would be the first born of the dead . so Christ is and will be first in all things .that is what Paul explains. Pierre All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. paladin you have become a smooth talker ,but your answer does not cut any wood,you forget or do not see the other scriptures that are not in your favor, so you are a slick talker not a true one. Pierre

Just because I do not have time to rewrite your entire faulted theology to comply with scripture does not mean I cannot correct your errors, Pierre.

And accusations are not welcome on this thread. If a poster cannot be polite with those with whom they disagree, I recommend one of the other boards where hostility may be better expressed.

I disagree with you, but still treat you like the image of God you are supposed to represent, and only ask the same courtesy in return.

And that message is not reserved only to you. All my friends on the board need to take heed also. Be that image of God he designed you to be. When Jesus took a cord and made a scourge ut of it to drive the money-changers from the temple, it was not because he hated them, nor was it because they were beneath the power of his love, no, my friends, it was becasue they were desecrating his father's house by making profit in exchanging money, and he could not allow them to desectrate his father's house.

All the accusations and attempts to be “cute” or “clever” at another's expense do not belong in a discussion between Brothers and Sisters, in Christ.

Grace and Hope to you all, whether you consider yourself my friend, or my opponent in thology, we can be God's children in discussion.

[Pastry]

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,20:37)

Quote (Pastry @ May 10 2011,09:22) Quote All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. That is not so… Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead….. Peace Irene If I tell you I am going to share with you and your husband, all of the treasure of my home, whether it is my front yard or my porch, would you expect to have a claim on my domestic treasure in the backyard of my home? Have I not made it clear when I used a limitimg parameter, “Whether?” When I said “all of the treasure whether it is my front yard or my porch? Do you not understand that the phrase “all of the treasure of my home” has been modified by the limiting parameter “Whether?” “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16] The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.”

Paladin! What I find amazing of your last post is, that you take one WORD and take it apart. When it says He is the firstborn of all creation, AND the firstborn from the death, you ignore it…. Why? It says both, not just one…..According to you we have just one firstborn of the death. your explanation is short of everything else…..Peace Irene

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2011,12:24)

Quote (942767 @ May 10 2011,19:04) Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,14:30) Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,20:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike Hi Mike: He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible.  And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption. Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty Marty can you send something what you do not have ? I can't  ,can you ? Pierre Hi Pierre: Can you read the scripture?  Does it not say “God sent forth his Son made of a woman, made under the Law”? It does not say he sent forth his Son prior to being made of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty Marty is this the only scripture in the bible that talks about the coming of the son of God and also Paul letters in col;1;15-17 why are you try to reject the son of God ? if he would be a mere men he could not save anyone not even himself. Pierre

Hi Pierre:

Does God say one thing in one scripture and something else by another. The scriptures must be consistent. And so, what does this scripture state?

I never said that Jesus is a mere man. The scriptures state that he is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”, but the scriptures also state that he is a man, no, not just a mere man, but nevertheless a man.

And why are you accusing me of rejecting the Son of God. Jesus is my Lord.

The discussion here is whether or not he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and by this scripture in Galatians which I posted, it shows that he did not.

God sent forth his Son after be was born of the flesh, not before. That is what the scripture states.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 11 2011,00:44)

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,20:37) Quote (Pastry @ May 10 2011,09:22) Quote All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. That is not so… Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead….. Peace Irene If I tell you I am going to share with you and your husband, all of the treasure of my home, whether it is my front yard or my porch, would you expect to have a claim on my domestic treasure in the backyard of my home? Have I not made it clear when I used a limitimg parameter, “Whether?” When I said “all of the treasure whether it is my front yard or my porch? Do you not understand that the phrase “all of the treasure of my home” has been modified by the limiting parameter “Whether?” “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16] The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.” Paladin!  What I find amazing of your last post is, that you take one WORD and take it apart.  When it says He is the firstborn of all creation, AND the firstborn from the death, you ignore it…. Why? It says both, not just one…..According to you we have just one firstborn of the death.  your explanation is short of everything else…..Peace Irene

Irene:

He was the only Begotten Son of God who was born of the virgin Mary, the firstbegotten of God, and then he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, and he then was resurrected from the dead, or he was born again from the dead, making him the firstborn from the dead.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ May 10 2011,14:39)

Gene Quote Terricca………..Again with the Character Assignations and insults,  Seem to be your expertise here as it was when you first started. Paladin has taken every effort to clearly explain exactly what he was saying and been extremely patient taking your insults as he has done with all who are here. You ought to all be ashame of you ignorant and insulting behaviors. IMO gene we have gone trough with your opinions ,it like this; if we say this car is color black you would say no it is in the shade and so it shows black ,if we say it is white you would say no it is in the light and shine white,even if we show you that in the scriptures it is black or withe, you guys will just not accept scriptures unless it is your interpretation.so be it . Pierre

Terricca……….If you insist Jesus was a incarnate being as all Catholics and Protestants and Preexistence do , the produce ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAY [/B] JESUS 'PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS A SENTINEL BEING” not some scripture you guys can twist to come to those conclusions.

You example of disagreeing with what is black or what ever is exactly what you people do . or you would not have to force the text as you all do. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………………….gene

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 11 2011,00:44)

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,20:37) Quote (Pastry @ May 10 2011,09:22) Quote All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection. That is not so… Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead….. Peace Irene If I tell you I am going to share with you and your husband, all of the treasure of my home, whether it is my front yard or my porch, would you expect to have a claim on my domestic treasure in the backyard of my home? Have I not made it clear when I used a limitimg parameter, “Whether?” When I said “all of the treasure whether it is my front yard or my porch? Do you not understand that the phrase “all of the treasure of my home” has been modified by the limiting parameter “Whether?” “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16] The same principle applies when Paul uses “whether” in this verse, it is a limiting parameter detailing the scope of “all things.” Paladin!  What I find amazing of your last post is, that you take one WORD and take it apart.  When it says He is the firstborn of all creation, AND the firstborn from the death, you ignore it…. Why? It says both, not just one…..According to you we have just one firstborn of the death.  your explanation is short of everything else…..Peace Irene

Irene, when God says Israel is his firstborn, centuries prior to the birth of Jesus; then says ephraim is his firstborn, also centuries prior to Jesus' birth, and again tells us david is his firstborn, centuries prior to the birth of Jesus, do you think he is saying “Oh, I forgot to mention it, Jesus was already my firstborn of all creation; I just forgot to mention it?”

No, Irene, there is a significance to being God's firstborn, just as the Hebrew letter points out to us when it references “the church of the firstborn.” It is not a reference to the church belonging to Jesus, it is a reference to all those who by being in Jesus, are considered to be “firstborn sons.” There is a whole church full.

When God said Jesus is the firstborn of creation, it was well after the crucifixion, and resurrection, both of which took place in the 33rd year of Jesus' life. Paul tells us of Jesus being the firstborn of creation in 60 a.d.

And John first references Jesus as the “beginning of the creation of God” in revel 3:14, a little late for the original creation. It is not a reference to original creation, it is a reference to the new creation, first mentioned long after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, the son of God. Now Irene, if you want to take information you learned at the back of the book, and try to force it into a slot in the front of the book, go ahead, but don't expect me to join in that effort. It is totally wasted as far as understanding God's word is concerned. And any attempt you make to apply this to Jesus prior to his death, will always have those scriptures tellin gof his death, butial and resurrection, between your position and the reality of original creation.

Grace and Hope to you and yours

[Pastry]

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When God said Jesus is the firstborn of creation, it was well after the crucifixion, and resurrection, both of which took place in the 33rd year of Jesus' life. Paul tells us of Jesus being the firstborn of creation in 60 a.d.

Paladin! That makes no sense at all. When we read all in the New and Old Testament it is after Jesus resurrection. So when I quote a Scripture out of the Old testament it now is not true? No my friend that is not so. All Scriptures in the New Testament and Old for that matter, were written by a Monk after the resurrection of Jesus….
Peace Irene

[Pastry]

Also, Jesus was His literal firstborn Son, while both Israel and David were not. They were born of man, Jesus was not….He came forth from God Himself, David and Israel were not…..

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When God said Jesus is the firstborn of creation, it was well after the crucifixion, and resurrection, both of which took place in the 33rd year of Jesus' life. Paul tells us of Jesus being the firstborn of creation in 60 a.d.

That is Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

The Church that Jesus is the Head of will come soon….Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Marty

Quote

Hi Pierre: Does God say one thing in one scripture and something else by another. The scriptures must be consistent. And so, what does this scripture state? I never said that Jesus is a mere man. The scriptures state that he is “The Christ, the Son of the Living God”, but the scriptures also state that he is a man, no, not just a mere man, but nevertheless a man. And why are you accusing me of rejecting the Son of God. Jesus is my Lord. The discussion here is whether or not he existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world, and by this scripture in Galatians which I posted, it shows that he did not. God sent forth his Son after be was born of the flesh, not before. That is what the scripture states. Love in Christ, Marty

and what is wrong with these scriptures ?;Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant

and this ones;Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me(Christ the son) forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I(Christ) was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I(Christ) was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I (Christ)was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he (God)made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I(Christ) was there when he(God) set the heavens in place,
when he(God) marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he(God) established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he(God) gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he (God) marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I (Christ)was the craftsman at his side.
I (Christ)was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his(God the father) presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his(God) whole world
and delighting in mankind.

if you can not see it ,I can not help you only God can so pray.

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ May 11 2011,01:41)

Also, Jesus was His literal firstborn Son, while both Israel and David were not.

And you know this because…..???

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They were born of man, Jesus was not….

What do you think Mary was? Adam and Eve were the first man, Adam. “Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:2]

Mary was as much “man” as Adam was. Don't confuse “man” with “male.”

Jesus is called “son of God” 188 times in 74 verses in the N.T.
Jesus is called “Son of man” 274 times in 97 verses in the N.T.

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He came forth from God Himself, David and Israel were not…..

don't confuse Jesus with Wisdom in the 8th proverb.

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When God said Jesus is the firstborn of creation, it was well after the crucifixion, and resurrection, both of which took place in the 33rd year of Jesus' life. Paul tells us of Jesus being the firstborn of creation in 60 a.d.

Quote

That is Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. The Church that Jesus is the Head of will come soon….Peace Irene

So, you choose to simply ignore what I told you?
No explanation, no rebuttal, just skip over it?

Do you see no significance in the chronological facts that God spoke of the creation by God alone in Isaiah, Malachai, and other old testament passages, then in the new testament tells us of the new creation by Jesus Christ, before telling us Jesus is the firstborn of creation? Before he tells us Jesus is the firstborn from the dead? The new creation was already an accomplished fact, when God told us of these things.

Yet you feel safe in grabbing sound bytes and forcing them back to a time prior to their application in scripture because you “have a doctrine” to protect.

No wonder we cannot agree.

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