Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ May 07 2011,15:40)

Worshipping Jesus and Mike Boll, I believe you understand what John writes here when he states that false teachers went forth from them literally but were not of them spiritually and yet you seem not to understand John 6:38, where Jesus teaches he came from God spiritually even though we know he came from his mother literally. Quote 1 John 2:19 (Young's Literal Translation) 19out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but — that they might be manifested that they are not all of us. You should though since you seem to be aware Jesus teaches Spiritual truths and not worldly ones.

Hi Kerwin,

I understand 1 John 2:19 to be saying that the antichrists LITERALLY came out of the group of Jesus' discples.  They were not spirits, but people who WERE a part of that group, and then manifested themselves as enemies of that group as time went by.

I do, however, understand your point that some teachings are spiritual, and do not speak of the flesh.  But your assertions that John 6 is one of those teachings remains unfounded, for Jesus literally says he came down from heaven, suggests he will ascend back there again, and then many disciples saw him do this…………LITERALLY.

And that is just one passage out of many that eliminate any possibility of Jesus “metaphorically” coming from heaven.  For example, Phil 2 makes it pretty clear that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but then was made as a human being.  And there are the many times Jesus is said to have “taken on flesh” or had the phrase “according to the flesh” attributed to him.  These are phrases not said about any other human being, for no other human has ever been anything BUT flesh, so the phrases would not make sense.  The only way they make sense for Jesus is if he was at some time something OTHER THAN flesh.

peace to you,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,17:35)

There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understnad “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?”

Hi Paladin,

I truly do understand the point you are making.  It is the same point Marty and Gene have been making for years here.  And I could even agree with your point if not for some very clear scriptures.

Consider this:  The sons of God shouted for joy at the founding of the earth, right?  Now we only know the names of two of the myriads upon myriads of them, and we don't know of any particular activity that any one of them participated in before the founding of the earth, right?  But by your logic, we could assert that not one of them pre-existed the founding of the earth, because we don't know of any of their activities prior to this time.  Does this sound sensible to you?  Because that's exactly what you're doing with Jesus.  You are saying that just because YOU don't know of a particular activity he performed before he was human means that he didn't exist before he was human.

But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.  And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.  And John 6 says he came down from heaven and would ascend to where he WAS BEFORE – and then he did that.  Proverbs 30:4 speaks of God's son as an already existing entity way before John speaks of the Word, through whom all things were created, BECOMING flesh and having the glory of the only begotten from the Father. Proverbs 8 says he was the master craftsman at God's side.  Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn of ALL creation, and in Rev 3:14, Jesus himself says he was the BEGINNING of the creation by God.  Hebrews 2:6 tells of God AGAIN bringing His firstborn INTO THE WORLD, suggesting God had previously brought His firstborn INTO THE WORLD.  Heb 1:2 speaks of the AGES, (as in more than one age) being created through him.

I could go on an on, but the references to Jesus' pre-existent activities are right there in the scriptures if you care to believe.

And look at the way you guys try to change these scripture.  You say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had as “a thought in God's head”.  That would be like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to the glory he had as a wooden puppet.  

And your alternate explanations to the other 50 scriptures we've put together are similarly weak and far reaching.

Paladin, it wouldn't matter one bit to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed, but I must go with what the scriptures teach.  You guys, on the other hand, seem to be willing to go to great and nonsensical lengths to make the Bible somehow teach what you've already decided in your own minds that it should teach.  You are trying to make the Bible teach what you want it to instead of letting it teach what God actually wrote.

peace,
mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,17:35) There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understnad “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?” Hi Paladin, I truly do understand the point you are making.  It is the same point Marty and Gene have been making for years here.  And I could even agree with your point if not for some very clear scriptures. Consider this:  The sons of God shouted for joy at the founding of the earth, right?  Now we only know the names of two of the myriads upon myriads of them, and we don't know of any particular activity that any one of them participated in before the founding of the earth, right?  But by your logic, we could assert that not one of them pre-existed the founding of the earth, because we don't know of any of their activities prior to this time.  Does this sound sensible to you?  Because that's exactly what you're doing with Jesus.  You are saying that just because YOU don't know of a particular activity he performed before he was human means that he didn't exist before he was human. But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.  And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.  And John 6 says he came down from heaven and would ascend to where he WAS BEFORE – and then he did that.  Proverbs 30:4 speaks of God's son as an already existing entity way before John speaks of the Word, through whom all things were created, BECOMING flesh and having the glory of the only begotten from the Father.  Proverbs 8 says he was the master craftsman at God's side.  Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn of ALL creation, and in Rev 3:14, Jesus himself says he was the BEGINNING of the creation by God.  Hebrews 2:6 tells of God AGAIN bringing His firstborn INTO THE WORLD, suggesting God had previously brought His firstborn INTO THE WORLD.  Heb 1:2 speaks of the AGES, (as in more than one age) being created through him. I could go on an on, but the references to Jesus' pre-existent activities are right there in the scriptures if you care to believe. And look at the way you guys try to change these scripture.  You say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had as “a thought in God's head”.  That would be like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to the glory he had as a wooden puppet.   And your alternate explanations to the other 50 scriptures we've put together are similarly weak and far reaching. Paladin, it wouldn't matter one bit to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed, but I must go with what the scriptures teach.  You guys, on the other hand, seem to be willing to go to great and nonsensical lengths to make the Bible somehow teach what you've already decided in your own minds that it should teach.  You are trying to make the Bible teach what you want it to instead of letting it teach what God actually wrote. peace, mike

Good post mike… And I agree….Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Thanks Irene.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,10:14)

Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,17:35) There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understnad “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?” Hi Paladin, I truly do understand the point you are making.  It is the same point Marty and Gene have been making for years here.  And I could even agree with your point if not for some very clear scriptures. Consider this:  The sons of God shouted for joy at the founding of the earth, right?  Now we only know the names of two of the myriads upon myriads of them, and we don't know of any particular activity that any one of them participated in before the founding of the earth, right?  But by your logic, we could assert that not one of them pre-existed the founding of the earth, because we don't know of any of their activities prior to this time.  Does this sound sensible to you?  Because that's exactly what you're doing with Jesus.  You are saying that just because YOU don't know of a particular activity he performed before he was human means that he didn't exist before he was human. But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.  And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.  And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.  And John 6 says he came down from heaven and would ascend to where he WAS BEFORE – and then he did that.  Proverbs 30:4 speaks of God's son as an already existing entity way before John speaks of the Word, through whom all things were created, BECOMING flesh and having the glory of the only begotten from the Father.  Proverbs 8 says he was the master craftsman at God's side.  Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn of ALL creation, and in Rev 3:14, Jesus himself says he was the BEGINNING of the creation by God.  Hebrews 2:6 tells of God AGAIN bringing His firstborn INTO THE WORLD, suggesting God had previously brought His firstborn INTO THE WORLD.  Heb 1:2 speaks of the AGES, (as in more than one age) being created through him. I could go on an on, but the references to Jesus' pre-existent activities are right there in the scriptures if you care to believe. And look at the way you guys try to change these scripture.  You say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had as “a thought in God's head”.  That would be like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to the glory he had as a wooden puppet.   And your alternate explanations to the other 50 scriptures we've put together are similarly weak and far reaching. Paladin, it wouldn't matter one bit to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed, but I must go with what the scriptures teach.  You guys, on the other hand, seem to be willing to go to great and nonsensical lengths to make the Bible somehow teach what you've already decided in your own minds that it should teach.  You are trying to make the Bible teach what you want it to instead of letting it teach what God actually wrote. peace, mike

Mike

very good post and so true

Pierre

[942767]

Hi:

The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,17:30)

Hi: The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[ Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

this scripture confirm that Christ was preexisting;

since scriptures are showing Christ to be the first born of all creation ,God made sure that Christ would be the first born of the dead .

so Christ is and will be first in all things .that is what Paul explains.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30)

Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures: Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages.

mike

[mikeboll64]

I agree Pierre,

Christ would have been the “only-born son” of God. He is the “firstborn” only because God already knew he would eventually have brothers.

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,18:41)

I agree Pierre, Christ would have been the “only-born son” of God.  He is the “firstborn” only because God already knew he would eventually have brothers. mike

Mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39)

Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike

Hi Mike:

He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world.

Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible. And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption.

Quote

Galatians 4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law

This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,20:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike Hi Mike: He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible.  And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption. Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

can you send something what you do not have ?

I can't ,can you ?

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,03:14)

[/quote] Quote (Paladin @ May 07 2011,17:35) There is no place ever in scripture that describes the person of Jesus in pre-existant heaven, that then tells us he came down to be born of a woman. That necessary link is missing, unless you understand “came down from heaven” is a reference to “This came from the authority of God in heaven,” which is shortened to “this came from heaven,” just like “The Baptism of John, from heaven or of men?” Hi Paladin, I truly do understand the point you are making.  It is the same point Marty and Gene have been making for years here.  And I could even agree with your point if not for some very clear scriptures. Consider this:  The sons of God shouted for joy at the founding of the earth, right?  Now we only know the names of two of the myriads upon myriads of them, and we don't know of any particular activity that any one of them participated in before the founding of the earth, right? But by your logic, we could assert that not one of them pre-existed the founding of the earth, because we don't know of any of their activities prior to this time.  Does this sound sensible to you?

No! And the reason it is not sensible is because I am not making that argument.

Look again at what I am saying, my friend.

The angels were for the most part anonymous. I have no problem with that. But there is no verse anywhere that says “before me there were no angels; after me their will be no angels formed; beside me there are no angels; there are no angels equal to me;” nor did he ever say to an angel “Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.”

That is why angels anonymity bothers me not at all. Nor a lack of documentation as to their activities. It is of no consequence.

I do not even make the argument that lack of record about Jesus' pre-existent activity proves anything one way or another. But I do make the argument that when scripture tells us God was alone (i.e., without Jesus) when he created the heavens and earth; and that Jesus had nowhere to be, prior to his begettal in [Mat 1:20][John 3:6] and [Gal 4:4], then I begin to question this record of not being, in light of the doctrines and creeds dealing with his being. Therein lies the contradiction. It is not the silence of scripture, my friend, it is the blatant shout of the doctrines and creeds contrary to scripture that get my attention.

Isaiah tells us Jehovah's name is “EL.” [Psalm 85:8][Psalm 118:27]
Malachai tells us one “El” created us. [Mal 2:10] And “El” is singular
Isaiah tells us of Messiah who will be the son of El; [Isa 7:14]
The Psalmist tells us the sons of El are not to be compared to Jehovah. “For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah? who among the sons of the El'm can be likened unto Jehovah?” [Psalm 89:6] [Note: The plural of “El” is El'm]

Isaiah tells us Jehovah alone [monos] created heaven and earth[Isa 37:16,20]
John tells us that when he is with the Father, they are “ouk eimi monos” [not alone], but when the father is not with him, he is “monos” [alone] “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos [alone]: and yet ouk eimi monos , because the Father is with me.” [John 16:32]

So my question is reinforced by the inactivity of scripture, i.e., where was Jesus in his pre-existant state? He was not beside God, before God, after God, with god, creating, or even applauding with angels at the creative success; he was simply absent and silent.

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Because that's exactly what you're doing with Jesus.  You are saying that just because YOU don't know of a particular activity he performed before he was human means that he didn't exist before he was human.

nope! I am not saying I don't know of a particular activity, I am saying I do know of a particular activity in which he was not engaged. i.e, being with God, creating with God, sharing with God.

Quote

But Micah 5:2 says his origins are from ancient times.

And just what do you think prophecies are? If God prophesied that Mike would be saved by obeying the gospel, would not Mikes' prophesied goings forth be from of old through the prophecy?

The same word describing the ancient times, also describes ancient mountains, ancient landmarks, ancient boundaries, and ancient civilizations. Do you think they were all pre-existant entities? Look up “ow-lam” in the History of ancient Jewish writings.

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And Phil 2 says he was EXISTING in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.

You need to consider exaqctly what was being said in Phil 2:5-8. First of all, “being in a form of God” did not change when he “took upon him a form of a servant. It says nothing about his form changing. When Jesus, who was born to be a king [John 18:37], and could have commanded angels [mat 26:53]; instead, washed the disciples feet, thus taking on him the form of a servant, But his form as king and angel commander did not alter one bit. And neither did his being in a form of God. As a matter of course, being the son of God made him a form of God, without making him God. You cannot be both a thing and a form of the thing, at the same time.

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And John 17:5 says he HIMSELF had glory alongside God before the creation of the world.

Actually John says no such thing. Just because “para” is sometimes translated “beside” does not mean para means “along side of.”
It can also mean “by way of promise” as recorded in Acts 2:33 –

“Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received [para] of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”

He received a promise from the Father, and the Greek is “para” which is used to show the source of a promise of God; it is from God; and does not require one to be along side in God's presence to receive a promise of God. We were promised of God, eternal life, before the foundation of the world, But we were not in God's presence to appreciate it.

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And John 6 says he came down from heaven and would ascend to where he WAS BEFORE – and then he did that.

Exactly. He descended first into the lower parts of the earth, then ascended to where he was at first –  “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high (described in Acts 1:9-11), he led captivity captive, and gave gifts
unto men. 9 Now that he ascended [Acts 1:9-11], what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10]

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Proverbs 30:4 speaks of God's son as an already existing entity way before John speaks of the Word, through whom all things were created, BECOMING flesh and having the glory of the only begotten from the Father.

Please spell it out for me in Proverbs 30. It is not there.

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Proverbs 8 says he was the master craftsman at God's side.

Please show us where a proverb about the female daughter, wisdom was secretly about the unbegotten, unborn male son of God.

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Col 1:15 says he is the firstborn of ALL creation, and in Rev 3:14, Jesus himself says he was the BEGINNING of the creation by God.

Both verses deal with the resurrected, new type of creature. it is called “new creation” in scripture.

You make me think of two men who see a bunch of people walking across a river without sinking, and you think you have witnessed a miracle, while the other discovers a bunch of rocks beneath the surface of the water, that people use to walk across the river; He thinks it is pretty clever that folks will accomodate nature to their use, but you run out into the river touching each rock and loudly proclaim “I've discovered a miracle; and here's another one, and over there's another one.” You think you have discovered a miraculous way to cross the river, while the other man quietly shakes his head and ponders the “miracles” others discover in scripture.

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Hebrews 2:6 tells of God AGAIN bringing His firstborn INTO THE WORLD, suggesting God had previously brought His firstborn INTO THE WORLD.

Mike do you ever just sit and quietly study what you read? Or do you just suddenly find a new word and make a miracle out of it?

Do you mean Heb 1:6 –
“And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him…” [Heb 1:6]

God had brought his son into the world of Israel, not to go to the gentiles, but to the lost children of the house of Israel. Then, after his resurrection, he was taken by the gospel, into the uttermost parts of the world, the oikoumeneen, the world of the Gentile nations.

And it does not mean something was repeated every time the word “again” is used in the Hebrew letter. It is an expression used seventeen times in nine verses in Hebrews, and means something like “and also consider this…”

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?[How many times was he a father to the same son?]

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[see above]

Hebrews 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.[how many times did God give his children to the Messiah, in scripture?]

Hebrews 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. [please tell us what this is a reference to “again” happening]

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [this speaks for itself]

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [not repeating our labor]

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[how many times can you “renew” one?]

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [do you still think the use of “again” is a reference to doing something twice or more, or is it a reference to “also consider this…?”]

Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:[how many times were their men resurrected?]

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Heb 1:2 speaks of the AGES, (as in more than one age) being created through him.

We have already been over this same material before, Mike, but rather than spend hours looking for the prior post, I will simply retell what I told you before.

There is a concept discussed in Hebrews, of “adjusting the ages” which is a reference to when eras merge and separate, as when the Jewish dispensation ended, and the Christian age began. This did not take ploac ein a moment or upon a singular occasion, but happened over a period of forty years, between the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem.

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I could go on an on, but the references to Jesus' pre-existent activities are right there in the scriptures if you care to believe.

I know you keep claiming to have 50 scriptures that plainly tell…” but you never produce them. Or is it on another board? Give me a link, for I do not intend to cruise the internet looking for a needle in a haystack.

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And look at the way you guys try to change these scripture.  You say John 17:5 refers to the glory Jesus had as “a thought in God's head”.  That would be like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to the glory he had as a wooden puppet.

You will not find that in any of my posts. The only place I used that illustration was in reference to the logos being a concept in the mind of God. I think you are confusing yourself by mixing what is said about one thing, with what is said about another thing. And i don't remember “pinocchio” being in anything I said about anything.

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And your alternate explanations to the other 50 scriptures we've put together are similarly weak and far reaching.

I don't even know what you are
talking about here. did you  post them and receive a response from me? Where?

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Paladin, it wouldn't matter one bit to my faith whether or not Jesus pre-existed, but I must go with what the scriptures teach.  You guys, on the other hand, seem to be willing to go to great and nonsensical lengths to make the Bible somehow teach what you've already decided in your own minds that it should teach.  You are trying to make the Bible teach what you want it to instead of letting it teach what God actually wrote.

Then why do you insist on reading the scriptures in any way other than the way in which the Holy Spirit produced them? You cannot possibly understand Paul's “The logos of God” if you begin by interpreting it in John's gospel, written over thirty years later. It becomes a very different thing.

Yet, you insist it does not matter in what order the books are read.
You have somehow convinced yourself that ignorance is superior to inspiration. Well, I will admit it is certainly more popular.

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…….What Paladin is saying is right brother, you and some others here are indoctrinated into a form of MYSTERY RELIGION i believe you are sincere but you are sincerely wrong brother. Time is short please take another look at these things and drop thise false teaching that so many Trinitarians and Preexistences are caught up in while there is time Brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,13:03)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 09 2011,11:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2011,17:30) Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, While this scripture teaches that God already foreknew the ones who would later be conformed to the image of His Son, it says nothing to indicate that the Son didn't already exist before the ages. mike Hi Mike: He did exist in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world, and in 1 Peter 1 it states that he was foreordained, but there is no scripture which states that he pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren who would also be born of God, and we know that it only through him that this is possible.  And so, it does not speak of him being the “firstborn” in some pre-existent state, but he is the “firstborn” of God, the Only Begotten Son of God when he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world. and we born of God and his brethren by the spirit of adoption. Quote Galatians  4:4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law This verse states that God sent forth “His Son, made of a woman, made under the law”, and not that He sent forth his pre-existent Son into the womb of a woman, and then he was born into this world of a woman. Love in Christ, Marty

Right on Marty……..if only God would allow them to understand this brother.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[Pastry]

Paladin!

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saiah tells us Jehovah alone [monos] created heaven and earth[Isa 37:16,20] John tells us that when he is with the Father, they are “ouk eimi monos” [not alone

This contradicts what it says in

Gen 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who were the “us” and “our” in this Scripture of the creation of God. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, So He was there

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This Scripture tells us He was the beginning of Gods creation….

Then in this Scripture it tell s us that thriough jesus God created all..
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Fist John tells us that The Word of God was in the beginning with God. Then He said He made all by Gods power.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There also should not be any doubt that The Word of God is Gods only begotten Son..verse 14
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Not in Gods MIND, bur in real Spiritual Being…..Like the Angels, but above the Angels.. All Spirit Beings…. could Jesus be an Angel? I am not ruling that out…. They are all called Son's of the most High….
Now don't get confused who is saying this. Once more we are having problem log-in in with our Baker users name. We are Pastry now….Peace Irene

[Pastry]

Marty!

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Romans 8:29 states that he is the “firstborn among many brethren”, and so this implies that he is the firstborn Son of God among many brethren

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. You only see that He was foreknown….He still was the firstborn of all creation. What you don't want to see that Jehovah God existed long before He created His only begotten Son…Peace Irene

Thank you Marty…. This Scripture too says tha Jesus was the firstborn of all creation….Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,11:29)

Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,17:30) Hi: The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[ Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. this scripture confirm that Christ was preexisting; since scriptures are showing Christ to be the first born of all creation ,God made sure that Christ would be the first born of the dead . so Christ is and will be first in all things .that is what Paul explains. Pierre

All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn.

No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection.

[Pastry]

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All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection.

That is not so…
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Jesus is not only the firstborn of all creation verse 15, but also the firstborn from the dead, so in all things He may have preeminence. He is firstborn of all creation. and firstborn from the dead…..

Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Paladin @ May 10 2011,15:22)

Quote (terraricca @ May 09 2011,11:29) Quote (942767 @ May 09 2011,17:30) Hi: The following verses of scripture have been given by those who propose that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person prior to his birth into this world. Col 1:12   Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:   Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:   Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:   Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;[ Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven. Perhaps the following scriptures will help us to understand what is meant by the word “firstborn” in the above posted scriptures:  Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Love in Christ, Marty Marty Rom 8:29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. this scripture confirm that Christ was preexisting; since scriptures are showing Christ to be the first born of all creation ,God made sure that Christ would be the first born of the dead . so Christ is and will be first in all things .that is what Paul explains. Pierre All this passage proces is that God raised Jesus to be the firstborn from the dead, and arranged it so that christians would comform to his image, and be younger brothers to him who was firstborn. No “pre-existance” required other than the resurrection.

paladin

you have become a smooth talker ,but your answer does not cut any wood,you forget or do not see the other scriptures that are not in your favor,

so you are a slick talker not a true one.

Pierre

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