Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[GeneBalthrop]

Shimmer…………..So was Man conceived (brought into existence) by the Holy Spirit. was not Adam conceived by GOD, He is called the son of GOD, Is GOD Not Holy and if he is Holy then holy spirit brought Adam forth right?. Conceived of Holy Spirit simply is saying Jesus was Physically put together in the womb of Mary and has nothing to do with any preexistence whatsoever . God used his power to construct Jesus' DNA in Mary. The word Conceive simply means brought into a state of existence, it absolutely does not mean a preexistent state as in the case of those who think he preexisted as a sentinel being in another realm or as another sentential being in some time past and then was Morphed into a human body. No such scripture exists that say “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH” to get that from scriptures they must force the text to say it. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Shimmer…………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2011,11:39)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 03 2011,09:24) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels Notice Mike it is the same words as used for all of mankind in the above scripture in verse 7,  Do you see any difference between those two scriptures I don't. Hi Gene, Can “was made a little lower than the angels” be reconciled with Phil 2, which says that Jesus was existing in the form of God, but then “was made in the likeness of a human being”? If he was made as a human being, then for a while he was made lower than the angels – for human beings are lower than the angels, right?  But the scripture doesn't say he was ORIGINALLY made a little lower than the angels, does it?  So when you reconcile that scripture with Phil 2 and John 1:14, everything fits in nicely. Gene, before posting your “proof scripture”, ask yourself this one question:  Does this scripture prohibit Jesus from existing in heaven before this particular event took place? Here, let's try it on your latest scripture:  “Well, it says Jesus was made a little lower than the angels……….but does this scripture prohibit Jesus from existing in heaven before he was made a little lower than the angels?“ The answer is NO.  Being made as a man, which is a little lower than the angels, fits right in with our pre-existent understanding. Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 03 2011,09:24) Again the question come forth …..> why do you preexistences and your brother the trinitarians try so hear to separate Jesus for our (EXACT) Identity Is it not your false teaching that does this?. IMO Gene, even your friend Paladin has made it clear that Jesus was never exactly identical to the sons of Adam.  You have never believed me, but I thought for sure you would have believed Paladin when he told you this.  So which of us is really the one propagating a “false teaching” Gene? mike

Mike ………Your quite a Dancer, to elude the direct questions put to you, My question to you was did you see any difference in what God said about man Jesus in this verse is simply described as the First to achieve what GOD already planned and Said about MAN, It also Identifies Jesus as a MAN in the same why it does us also. Not one thing different from Us is shown there in Hebrews. You did not read and think about what i posted all the way through, or you would not have altered my point or you did and decided to detract from the points anyway. IMO

As far as i know i see no difference between My perception of Jesus with Paladin as Jesus Having the LOGOS of GOD (IN) HIM. He believes as i do that anyone who has the spirit of God in them Have the Logos also (IN) them just as Jesus did. Mike you need to try to stay on what a person is saying in complete context and stop pulling only part of what a person writes to try to distort what he is saying . IMO

Again the question was, Did you see any difference in the Hebrew scriptures i listed between Jesus and Our Identity as a Past Tense expression and how the  exact same expressions are made for us as Jesus. Try to stay with the question and not divert off to some where else or nothing can ever be resolved here. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 04 2011,11:51)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2011,18:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 03 2011,12:30) Quote (942767 @ May 02 2011,17:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,08:29) Hi Marty, What exactly do you think the “Word of God” is?  God's Spirit?  His very spoken words that have taken up an existence of their own?  Is the Word of God a separate entity from God? I'm curious how you understand it. mike Hi Mike: The Word of God is that which God has spoken. As to your question: Is the Word of God a separate entity from God?  No, it is not. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, Okay, I read your answer and it gives birth to a whole bunch of questions in my mind…………but let's start with just one: Do you believe that Jesus is NOT the one named “the Word of God” in Rev 19? mike Hi Mike: Yes, I believe this is Jesus.   Hi Marty, So the being of Jesus, according to you is: 1.  A being which God has spoken. 2.  Not a separate entity from God. Am I understanding you so far, because these are your own words I'm using for MY understanding of YOUR understanding. mike

No, Mike:

You are misconstruing what I have stated.

Of course Jesus is a separate person from God, but his spirit was formed by God through his obedience to God's Word.

The scriptures state that he is the express image of God's person, and we have seen this through the works of obedience that he did to God's Word.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (shimmer @ May 04 2011,21:08)

Quote (942767 @ May 03 2011,11:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,08:29) Hi Marty, What exactly do you think the “Word of God” is?  God's Spirit?  His very spoken words that have taken up an existence of their own?  Is the Word of God a separate entity from God? I'm curious how you understand it. mike Hi Mike: The Word of God is that which God has spoken. As to your question: Is the Word of God a separate entity from God?  No, it is not. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty. You mean just how our words are what we speak, and they are a part of us. Like this: Isaiah 55:11 “So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.”

Yes, Shimmer, the words that you speak and the life that you live, relating this to applying God's Word in your daily life, reflect who you are.

It is what you do in the body that defines who you are.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Paladin]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 01 2011,02:06)

Hi All To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny a very basic fundamental truth. There are way to many scriptures that one has to explain away or give some ethereal interpretation to the text when it is obvious a litteral interpretation of the text is what is meant by the writers. John 6:38-40 For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated. The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation. The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined… 1) to go down, come down, descend a) the place from which one has come down from b) to come down “In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“. katabainō  is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood! “The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.” Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above. “The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action. “The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. ”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38 The same word is used here… And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16 And here… And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2 Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven? Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”. Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3 Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”. When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven! Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father! Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words… What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62 Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action. Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”! Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world. John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“. The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as… 1) to have, i.e. to hold a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”! To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation! The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow! John 6:61, 62 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“? And we know he literally ascended back where he was before. WJ

To all those on the board that have attacked my Greek data; welcome.

I have waited for several days now, to see if any of my worthy opponents would correct the errors made in WJ's post. I was assuming that all you folks are interested in, is presenting the truth.

You say bad things about my use and knowledge of the Greek, but when you see WJ's post you say nothing? That tells me one of two things; 1) you care nothing for the truth, or 2) you know nothing of the Greek.

I will wait one more day to allow you to correct the issues raised by WJ's post, then I will post my own response. I would rather WJ correct it himself, or, if he does not know (nothing wrong with ignorance, we all have some), perhaps one of his friends would help the board with a little bit of truth.

Or is your theology all that matters here? If I saw one of my brothers in theology post this, I would have long since corrected him, either by e-mail, or by PM, or by this thread.

Maybe that's too much to expect where theology is at stake.

Come on fellows, give it a try.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Paladin

What you need to show is an example in scripture that has the same Greek structure as the verses I quote, and even if you find some problem with “The Scholars” Greek who by the way have credentials and you do not, then whatever you say will not be believed by me.

Even if you do not take the Greek into consideration then you have to at least look at other scriptures that compare with the same “Greek Structure”.

So maybe you can address my point to Marty…

”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

The same word is used here…

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16

And here…

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2

Paladin, was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” who came down from heaven? Or did they really “descend” (katabainō) from heaven?

Keep in mind every time the word “descend” (katabainō) is found in scriptures it refers to a literal event involving a living being and not some abstract concept like the “thought and plan of God came down from heaven”.

If the Holy Spirit and the Angel “descended” (katabainō) from heaven literally then why do you deny Jesus literally came down from heaven?

WJ

05/06/11 Edited to delete a sentence per HN Staff.

[Baker]

Paladin!  Since you started posting, members have gone into the Greek.  I find it not necessary to do do.  I also find it ironic that YOU my friend think more highly of yourself then Translators are.
Why should I agree with what YOU have to say…..The Bible is good enough for me.,….. Bye   Irene

[shimmer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2011,00:58)

God used his power to construct Jesus' DNA in Mary. The word Conceive simply means brought into a state of existence,

Hi Gene.

So do you believe then, that Jesus was born of a virgin? That his conception was different than most? By the POWER of God not man. So he was different in that way?

[kerwin]

Paladin,

I am but a student who God has chosen to give many limits including a limited number of skills and time. I am sometimes am able to read other posts I am not directly involved in but that is a tiny portion of what is posted. My skills in the manuscript language are limited to online lexicons and my limited ability to use them.

If you see a need that must be addressed then feel free to do so. If you wish the opinion of another then ask them directly to get their attention. A PM may be more effective in alerting them for various reasons.

[terraricca]

Paladin

Quote

To all those on the board that have attacked my Greek data; welcome. I have waited for several days now, to see if any of my worthy opponents would correct the errors made in WJ's post. I was assuming that all you folks are interested in, is presenting the truth. You say bad things about my use and knowledge of the Greek, but when you see WJ's post you say nothing? That tells me one of two things; 1) you care nothing for the truth, or 2) you know nothing of the Greek. I will wait one more day to allow you to correct the issues raised by WJ's post, then I will post my own response. I would rather WJ correct it himself, or, if he does not know (nothing wrong with ignorance, we all have some), perhaps one of his friends would help the board with a little bit of truth. Or is your theology all that matters here? If I saw one of my brothers in theology post this, I would have long since corrected him, either by e-mail, or by PM, or by this thread. Maybe that's too much to expect where theology is at stake. Come on fellows, give it a try.

to be honest I have no knowledge of Hebrew or Greek,but what i know is the scriptures what i read in two languages and in 14 different version

i assume that each version had is own Hebrew and Greek master theologian ect.

my deep understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus preexisted ,now if you can show us all that we have the scriptures all wrong and because there is a word that you believe should mean some thing different than what we have so far seen,please show what you believe it is otherwise,but explain all other scriptures that state he preexisted,and do not brush those scriptures away just by saying those are a dream to come or in the spirit ect.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (shimmer @ May 05 2011,09:22)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2011,00:58) God used his power to construct Jesus' DNA in Mary. The word Conceive simply means brought into a state of existence, Hi Gene. So do you believe then, that Jesus was born of a virgin? That his conception was different than most? By the POWER of God not man. So he was different in that way?

Shimmer ……..I believe Jesus' conception was exactly the same as our is, the only difference is that God altered the DNA to fit what he wanted an what he Prophesied Jesus to look like. That was all that was done , he did not have the DNA of a Man and WOMEN supplied by a Sexual act between them, the Male DNA was Supplied by GOD, but that did not make him no different then any other human being. DNA only produces a Physical person and have nothing to do with what is not Physical like the Spirit (IN) that person. In fact God creating Adam and EVE was even a greater feat in my opinion then what he performed in Jesus' berth.

The flesh prophets nothing neither did Jesus' body prophet him anything either. Jesus not only was not much to look at , but it appears he had a lot of infirmities also. “For he has born our infirmities”> He was despised , no attractiveness that we should desire him………..>. God the Father wanted Jesus to look a certain way and that required a Manipulation of his DNA in Mary's womb.

Shimmer none of that had anything to do with a MORPHING process at all. GOD like a master Sculpture made Jesus just the way He wanted him to look Just as He did Adam and EVE. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Shimmer…………………gene

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 05 2011,08:40)

Quote (shimmer @ May 04 2011,21:08) Quote (942767 @ May 03 2011,11:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 02 2011,08:29) Hi Marty, What exactly do you think the “Word of God” is?  God's Spirit?  His very spoken words that have taken up an existence of their own?  Is the Word of God a separate entity from God? I'm curious how you understand it. mike Hi Mike: The Word of God is that which God has spoken. As to your question: Is the Word of God a separate entity from God?  No, it is not. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty. You mean just how our words are what we speak, and they are a part of us. Like this: Isaiah 55:11 “So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.” Yes, Shimmer, the words that you speak and the life that you live, relating this to applying God's Word in your daily life, reflect who you are. It is what you do in the body that defines who you are. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

you right in the visible way,but there still the part in the heart

this is only God who can see.

Pierre

[shimmer]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2011,12:03)

Quote (shimmer @ May 05 2011,09:22) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 05 2011,00:58) God used his power to construct Jesus' DNA in Mary. The word Conceive simply means brought into a state of existence, Hi Gene. So do you believe then, that Jesus was born of a virgin? That his conception was different than most? By the POWER of God not man. So he was different in that way? Shimmer ……..I believe Jesus' conception was exactly the same as our is, the only difference is that God altered the DNA to fit what he wanted an what he Prophesied Jesus to look like. That was all that was done , he did not have the DNA of a Man and WOMEN supplied by a Sexual act between them, the Male DNA was Supplied by GOD, but that did not make him no different then any other human being. DNA only produces a Physical person and have nothing to do with what is not Physical like the Spirit (IN) that person. In fact God creating Adam and EVE was even a greater feat in my opinion then what he performed in Jesus' berth. The flesh prophets nothing neither did Jesus' body prophet him anything either. Jesus not only was not much to look at , but it appears he had a lot of infirmities also.  “For he has born our infirmities”> He was despised , no attractiveness that we should desire him………..>.  God the Father wanted Jesus to look a certain way and that required a Manipulation of his DNA in Mary's womb. Shimmer none of that had anything to do with a MORPHING process at all. GOD like a master Sculpture made Jesus just the way He wanted him to look Just as He did Adam and EVE. IMO peace and love to you and yours Shimmer…………………gene

Hi Gene. So you believe in the virgin birth? Yay or nay? It seems like you do believe in the virgin birth.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 04 2011,08:32)

Of course Jesus is a separate person from God, but his spirit was formed by God through his obedience to God's Word.

Hi Marty,

Okay……………..so now Jesus is NOT the “Word of God” like you previously said, but instead, someone who OBEYS the “Word of God”?

I'm getting confused.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 04 2011,07:21)

Try to stay with the question and not divert off to some where else or nothing can ever be resolved here.

Hi Gene,

Or……………………..maybe YOU could try answering a question now and then.  

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 04 2011,07:21)

Again the question was, Did you see any difference in the Hebrew scriptures i listed between Jesus and Our Identity as a Past Tense expression and how the  exact same expressions are made for us as Jesus.

No, not one difference at all.  Does that answer YOUR question adequately?  If so, it's your turn to answer mine:

God made man a little lower than the angels, right?  And Jesus was also made a little lower than the angels, right?

Gene, everyone on this site agrees that Jesus was made as a man.  You think he was ORIGINALLY made as a man, while I think he was existing in the form of God, but emptied himself of his spirit nature and was made as a man.  So here's the simple question that I would like a DIRECT answer to:

Gene, does Heb 2:9 say that Jesus was ORIGINALLY made a little lower than the angels………….or could this scripture fit in with both your view AND the pre-existent view?

Gene, this is what I've been after from Marty…………to no avail.  I understand that you guys have scriptures you like to use as support for non-preexistence, but no matter what they DO say, not one of them actually has a “Yes” answer to that “test” question I posted for you yesterday.  In other words, not one of them actually prohibits Jesus from pre-existing in heaven BEFORE the thing the scripture describes happened.

Heb 2:9 is just another example of the same.  YES, Jesus was made a little lower than the angels…………..but we all already know and believe this because he was made in the likeness of a man.  But does Heb 2:9 prohibit Jesus from existing in heaven BEFORE he was made in the likeness of a man, therefore being a little lower than the angels for a while?  NO.

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,13:16)

Quote (942767 @ May 04 2011,08:32) Of course Jesus is a separate person from God, but his spirit was formed by God through his obedience to God's Word. Hi Marty, Okay……………..so now Jesus is NOT the “Word of God” like you previously said, but instead, someone who OBEYS the “Word of God”? I'm getting confused. mike

Hi Mike:

The scripture states that “his Name” is called the Word of God. It does not say that he is the Word of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Baker]

Quote (942767 @ May 06 2011,00:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 05 2011,13:16) Quote (942767 @ May 04 2011,08:32) Of course Jesus is a separate person from God, but his spirit was formed by God through his obedience to God's Word. Hi Marty, Okay……………..so now Jesus is NOT the “Word of God” like you previously said, but instead, someone who OBEYS the “Word of God”? I'm getting confused. mike Hi Mike: The scripture states that “his Name” is called the Word of God.  It does not say that he is the Word of God. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty! Are you called Marty? And then according to your logic, your not Marty….Am I getting that right? Jesus is called The Word of God in both Rev.19 and John 1, yet He is not Jesus, that makes no sense at all. When you look at Rev. 19 there should be no doubt it is Jesus. Your grasping for straws…hollow……Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Marty………Right being called something does not necessarily mean your are that. For example a airplane is called a Bird, a ship is call a she, men call their wives honey, some men are called a slug because the are so slow, Mike once gave and example of a man being called the kings word, but anyone would know he was not actually the kings word, but he spoke the kings words, that also is the case of Jesus being called the word of GOD.

These Trinitarians and Preexistences alway seek to Give GOD'S GLORY to a man, The MAN JESUS, and in that way are Robing GOD of HIS GLORY. But Jesus never took the Glory of GOD to himself, Saying “the son of man could do nothing of himself but the Father who was (IN) him does the works''. This is what Idolaters do they rob GOD of His Glory and turn it into a idol of some kind, Stone or iron or a man. Jesus never ever did that, he gave continual Glory to GOD the Father. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….No scripture say Jesus was originally made any different then we are. that is an assumption on your part. When you refer to Paul saying Jesus (EXISTED) a past tense expression, what you are failing to realize He was talking about Jesus Past earthly existence not some assumed before earth existence as you believe Mike. Mike even if you don't want to listen to me please listen to Paladin and Marty and Kerwin they are presenting it right brother.

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[Baker]

Marty! Believing that Jesus was with His Father before all of creation, is not robing God Almighty of His glory. I also find it wrong to associate those that believe in the preexisting of Jesus with the trinitarian,. We believe that Jesus had a beginning, they believe He always existed. Calling material to a Human being is much different. But if I call a Ship a bird, is that Ship then not a Ship? Or if my husband calls me Honey, am not then His wife? Maybe you need to think a little deeper. It doesn't matter if I call someone by a particular word, it is still that someone.,…..Peace Irene

[Author]

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