Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

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April 30, 2011 at 1:03 am#244866

terraricca

Participant

Marty

Quote

Pierre:

Jesus is not the creator. He is the “basis for the whole of creation”. God made everything knowing that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son through whom his plan for this world and humanity would be fulfilled.

you right Christ was there and all creation was created after he was created.that is what scriptures say;

Quote

Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father’” ?

if God did not have a son then why are scriptures talked about the son,

and i never say that Christ preexisted as an angel but as the first born in creation;

read this parable;Mk 12:1 He then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey.
Mk 12:2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard.
Mk 12:3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
Mk 12:4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully.
Mk 12:5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
Mk 12:6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
Mk 12:7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
Mk 12:8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
Mk 12:9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others.
Mk 12:10 Haven’t you read this scripture:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone ;
Mk 12:11 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’

you believe what ever, it also our responsibility to make sure it is the truth and this goes for all of us.

Pierre

April 30, 2011 at 1:49 am#244867

Baker

Participant

Marty! You still don;t get it. There are several Scrioptures that tell us, Jesus was only a Spirit Being…. And flesh and blood cannot inherit any Kingdom of God….The King of Kings is seated at the right hand of His Father who is a Spirit Being, and YOU think that His body also came from Heaven? Is that what you are trying to tell us?? Well wrong 1 Corinth, 15:50 read it….I am wasting my time…Irene

April 30, 2011 at 4:11 am#244871

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2011,05:59)

Not one scripture have you produced in the old testament that shows any activity of your preexistent Jesus.

Hi Gene,

Do you know the activities of every one of the myriads and myriads of angels that existed before the creation of the world?

If you do not, does that mean they didn't really exist? Of course not. So now that you know this “point” you're trying to make is a “non-point”, we shouldn't have to read it anymore, right?

Once you either acknowledge or refute what I've just said, I will address one of your other points, okay? But if you neither acknowledge nor refute my post, then don't bother posting to me anymore. Because we've already been over and over everything in your post a hundred times. But when I address your claims, you don't ever respond TO my rebuttal, but instead just post the same tired stuff again and again. And I'm tired of answering to the same stuff just to have you ignore my answer.

Fair enough?

Gene, does not knowing the activities of a being that existed before the creation of the world mean that being did not exist? YES or NO?

peace,
mike

April 30, 2011 at 4:23 am#244874

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Mike…………But Jesus is not Just a ordinary Angel according to You, the world was created “THROUGH” him according to you, hardly an ordinary angel, In fact you have not produce (ONE) Scripture saying Jesus preexisted as any kind of Angel. Mike say there are myriad of angels that are not talked abut is just another way you have of ignoring the direct question i ask , it is simple a diversion from truth. IMO

peace and love…………………………………..gene

April 30, 2011 at 5:24 am#244877

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2011,22:23)

peace and love…………………………………..gene

Gene

there you go again ,we posted this scripture Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,

and others .

if you do not believe Paul apostle of Christ ,I say gene you do not believe in the scriptures ,

this is black and white.

this is the ending for me to respond to you .

Pierre

April 30, 2011 at 10:42 am#244884

kerwin

Participant

Pierre,

You wrote:

Quote

you right Christ was there and all creation was created after he was created.that is what scriptures say;

If you are speaking of the Spirit of Christ then I agree as it clearly states in the story of the old creation that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.

If you are speaking of the new Creation that I agree that Jesus the Messiah then it is indeed created through him even as God foreknew.

If you are stating Jesus the Messiah was at the old creation then I disagree as Adam was the first human being created and that was on the Sixth Day.

April 30, 2011 at 10:52 am#244885

kerwin

Participant

Quote (Baker @ April 30 2011,07:49)

? Well wrong 1 Corinth, 15:50 read it….I am wasting my time…Irene

Quote

Luke 17(Young's Litteral Translation)

20And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;

21nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

Since the reign of God is within you then how do you inherit it?

April 30, 2011 at 12:58 pm#244886

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Terricca…………… ALL human beings are made in the image of GOD he is conforming us to this same image of Him through his spirit working in us . The word image means to mirror or reflect someone. Jesus was the first from all mankind to fulfill that Goal God has in mind for us all. He is the firstborn from mankind into the kingdom of God as scripture plainly says. Your confusing the LOGOS of GOD with the Man Jesus , who the LOGOS was in . Paladin, Kerwin, Marty, Wispring, JA, Martin and myself all understand this why can't you and Mike and Irene?. GOD is SPIRIT (intellect) GOD and His Word are ONE and the SAME, Just as you and your word are one and the same thing, It was not Jesus who was following the childern of Israel in the wilderness it was the CHRISTOS or anointing of God. the spirit of GOD (IN) his messengers and servants that was guiding Israel in the wilderness. It was his Spirit or Logos that was speaking to us in times past through the Prophets and in these ladder day through his Son Jesus who is call the Christos or anointed one. Simple and clear if you understand it Pierre. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………………..gene

April 30, 2011 at 1:55 pm#244890

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2011,22:23)

peace and love…………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

You didn't ask a “direct question” of me. In fact, you asked no question at all that I can see. You rarely do, for it seems you'd rather just post the same things again and again.

You are correct about my understanding that Jesus was not just an ordinary angel. You are also correct about my understanding that the world was created through him. The scriptures say it, so why in the world woudn't that be my understanding?

This is not a “diversion”, but a way to show you that not specifically knowing the activities of Jesus before he became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being doesn't tell us he didn't exist before that time. So please just acknowledge this point, because I'm trying to piece by piece eliminate your “standard post” about pre-existence that we've all read at least 100 times by now.

Do you hear what I'm saying, Gene? I've asked a question that we all know the honest answer to. Would you answer it so I can move on the next “piece” of your “stock post”?

Here it is again – either answer it or don't bother posting to me at all:

Gene, does not knowing the activities of a being that existed before the creation of the world mean that being did not exist? YES or NO?

peace,
mike

April 30, 2011 at 2:05 pm#244892

Paladin

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2011,00:55)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 29 2011,22:23)

peace and love…………………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

You didn't ask a “direct question” of me. In fact, you asked no question at all that I can see. You rarely do, for it seems you'd rather just post the same things again and again.

Do you hear what I'm saying, Gene? I've asked a question that we all know the honest answer to. Would you answer it so I can move on the next “piece” of your “stock post”?

Here it is again – either answer it or don't bother posting to me at all:

Gene, does not knowing the activities of a being that existed before the creation of the world mean that being did not exist? YES or NO?

peace,
mike

Mike; I would like to see you name someone that existed but who had no activity before the creation of the world; and of course, give the scriptural reference for it.

April 30, 2011 at 2:21 pm#244893

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ April 29 2011,17:45)

I hope that this satisfies your demands because I am not going to go beyond this

Why wouldn't you “go beyond this”? Are you afraid that by delving into your doctrine it may be exposed for the fallacy it is?

Once again, I'm only asking if you have a scripture that prohibits John 17:5 from saying that the person of Jesus had glory alongside his God before the creation of the world (considering that IS actually what it says).

You either do or you don't. The scriptures you did list say nothing that would prohibit a pre-existent Jesus. And the explanations you gave seem to me like the words of someone who is desparately trying to find odd, alternate meanings to the clear teachings of the scriptures – for his own personal reasons.

I know why Gene does it – because his own mind has convinced him that Jesus must have been exactly like us in order for us to follow him. Is this your man-made reason also, Marty?

Here's the thing guys, for one to read a scripture where Jesus point blank says “I came down from heaven”, and then to try so hard to make it mean something else, shows a pre-conceived notion at work.

I'm asking you to remove your pre-conceived notions from your brains, and take the scriptures for what they say. If scripture says the ages were created through Jesus………..then just believe it. If Jesus says he had glory with God before the founding of the world…………..then just believe it. If scripture says Jesus is the firstborn of all creation for all other things were created through him………….then just believe it. And if the PERSON Jesus says, “I came down from heaven”…………..then just believe it.

Marty, I know it will be hard, for you've hung on to this pre-conceived notion for so long. But you can't let the Word of God teach you if you are too busy disregarding the scriptures that don't conform to your own “truth”.

peace,
mike

April 30, 2011 at 2:32 pm#244894

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ April 30 2011,08:05)

Mike; I would like to see you name someone that existed but who had no activity before the creation of the world; and of course, give the scriptural reference for it.

Hi Paladin,

And I would like to see you answer the questions I ask of you in a direct manner. But it seems that only one of our wishes will be granted, eh?

Okay, we know that Michael came to the aid of the messenger God sent to Daniel, right? What activities did Michael partake in before he helped subdue the Prince of Persia? Does the fact we don't know mean that Michael didn't exist until the very moment he helped Daniel's angel? What activities was Michael involved in while Jesus was on earth? We don't know, do we? Is our not knowing a reason to assume that Michael didn't exist during those 33 years?

If you can now understand the point I'm making to Gene, and still feel the need to disregard my direct questions to YOU in favor of addressing my posts to others, then at least be good enough to answer the QUESTION I asked Gene, okay?

peace,
mike

April 30, 2011 at 2:44 pm#244896

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2011,04:42)

If you are speaking of the Spirit of Christ then I agree as it clearly states in the story of the old creation that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters.

Hi Kerwin,

I think you are stating that God's Spirit “married” flesh, (not BECAME flesh), and was “married to” the likeness of a human being, (not WAS MADE INTO the likeness of a human being), and that it was this Spirit of God who had the glory of an only begotten Son and dwelled among us, right?

If that is the case, then I have only one question for you.
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Who is Jesus talking about in this scripture if he already IS the Holy Spirit?

mike

April 30, 2011 at 3:06 pm#244899

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi All

To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny a very basic fundamental truth. There are way to many scriptures that one has to explain away or give some ethereal interpretation to the text when it is obvious a litteral interpretation of the text is what is meant by the writers.

John 6:38-40
For “I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will“, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is obvious what Jesus meant, but men who know nothing of the construction of the Greek have set out to make themselves greater than the truth by misinterpreting the clear meaning of the text in which the authors intended and which the translators translated.

The Greek construction of the text concerning the preexistence of Jesus does not allow for a “Unitarian” interpretation.

The Greek for “I have come” is Strong's G2597 – katabainō which is defined…

1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down

“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.

katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!

“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”

Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.

“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

The same word is used here…

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16

And here…

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2

Was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” come down from heaven? Or did they really descend from heaven?

Jesus said plainly that he came “From God” and “went to God”.

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that “he was come from God, and went to God“; John 13:3

Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really occurred”.

When Jesus ascended to heaven., it was Jesus that did the ascending! The scriptures do not tell us the Father took him to heaven!

Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest way implied that he was or came from a plan or thought of the Father!

Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…

What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62

Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.

Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!

Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from and to the Glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with “the glory which I had with thee before the world was“.

The Greek word for “I had” is Strong's G2192 – echō which is defined as…

1) to have, i.e. to hold

a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as 2) to have i.e. own, possess

Again “I had” is in the “imperfect tense”, the “active voice”, and the “indicative mood”, so there is no way Jesus was saying “I shared his glory because I was in his thought and plan”!

To deny the preexistence of Jesus is to deny the simple truths of the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning of all of creation!

The Jews mumured among themselves because Jesus said he was the Bread of Life that came down from heaven and many turned back because it was a hard pill they could not swallow!

John 6:61, 62
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before“?

And we know he literally ascended back where he was before.

April 30, 2011 at 3:20 pm#244901

Baker

Participant

Keith! I do agree with you that Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth. But what you did not say in your
post is that He had a beginning.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, and then by Jesus all was created.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I also agree that the Greek is not easy to understand. Then for Paladin to come on this site and want to say He knows it better then the translators, is a hard thing to say…. And I also caught Him in a contradiction by His own words. So I will not believe whatever He dishes out….. Peace Irene

April 30, 2011 at 4:04 pm#244905

mikeboll64

Blocked

Good post Keith.

April 30, 2011 at 4:05 pm#244906

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2011,11:04)

Good post Keith.

Thanks MIke

Unlike Irene you didn't find fault.

April 30, 2011 at 6:47 pm#244913

942767

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 01 2011,01:21)

Quote (942767 @ April 29 2011,17:45)

I hope that this satisfies your demands because I am not going to go beyond this

Why wouldn't you “go beyond this”? Are you afraid that by delving into your doctrine it may be exposed for the fallacy it is?

I know why Gene does it – because his own mind has convinced him that Jesus must have been exactly like us in order for us to follow him. Is this your man-made reason also, Marty?

peace,
mike

Hi Mike:

Since you want to teach the pre-existence of Jesus, it is up to you to substatiate it with scripture.

Kieth has given you the go ahead to teach it, and so, I guess both you and he can teach whatever you wish, and so am I. I know that he existed in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, and came down from heaven according to what is written in the scriptures.

We are all responsible to God for what we teach.

He did not pre-exist as a man, and I already showed why, and he did not pre-exist as an angel, and I showed you why.

Philippians 2:5 states: Let this “mind” be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus and then 2:6 Who, being in the form of God thought it not roberry to be equal with God…

And so, this is referring to the “mind” that was in Christ Jesus.
He did not become a living soul until he was born of the virgin Mary. And so, this is referring to him when he was here on earth.

You want to teach that “he was in the form of God” in a pre-existent state. Where does the scripture state that this refers to his pre-existent state? And what does it mean to be in the form of God, in some pre-existent state?

I have given you my understanding and that is that Jesus came down from heaven in two ways. First, he became a living soul when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary and born into this world an infant, and his spirit came down from heaven as he learned to apply the Word of God in his daily life, and he obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.

This is what I understand the scriptures to say, and so, this is what I will teach.

Before you accuse me of bailing out, I will just simply say that I have nothing more to say about this at this point in time. If God gives me something different than what I have shared based on my understanding, then I will say something more at that time.

Love in Christ,
Marty

April 30, 2011 at 6:56 pm#244915

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (942767 @ April 30 2011,13:47)

Since you want to teach the pre-existence of Jesus, it is up to you to substatiate it with scripture.

Marty

We have already given you clear scripture and the literral Greek meanings.

”For I came down (katabainō) from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38

The same word is used here…

And here…

And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2

Marty, was the Holy Spirit and the Angel a “thought or plan” who came down from heaven? Or did they really “descend” (katabain&#333) from heaven?

April 30, 2011 at 7:43 pm#244918

mikeboll64

Blocked