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Quote (terraricca @ April 28 2011,07:01) Quote (Paladin @ April 28 2011,00:50) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,12:31) Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)
He was not an angel:Sure he was. “Aggelos” simply means “messenger”, and Jesus, Gabriel and John the Baptist were all “aggelos” of their God.
No, he wasn't. No scripture ever applies “aggelos” to Jesus. I think you are thinking of Hebrews 3:1 where Jesus is called the “Apostle and high priest” of our profession.”
Bbut Jesus was “made a little lower than the angels” [Psa 8:5][Heb 2:9]
Paladinwrong;there is one here;MAL 3:1 “ Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and ;the messenger of the covenant;, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the LORD of hosts.
the messenger of the covenant,this is Christ.
Pierre
I don't think so Pierre, because the Malachai passage is a reference to a messenger of the covenant who is desired by the people; but Isaiah says concerning Messiah –NO “”BEAUTY” FOUND IN HIM THAT WE SHOULD DESIRE HIM
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.No, my friend, I think the Malachai reference is to John the Baptist, the messenger of the covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice of the covenant, providing the blood of the covenant.
Heb 9:11-15 “But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”
John was the “messenger of the covenant who was sent from God” – John 1:6-8 “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.”
Isaiah speaks of the messenger of the covenant this way-
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Luke 3:4-6 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”
John 1:20-23 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
II Chron 36:15 And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place: 16 But they mocked the messengers of God and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy.
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mat 11:7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses. 9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. 10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Luke 7:24-28 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.John was the messenger, Jesus was the sacrifice.
Then of course there is this
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.Quote (Paladin @ April 28 2011,00:29) Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,23:48)
Paladin! There are three Scriptures talking about the Mediator, you mentioned 1 Tim. 2:5Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus gave us a new covenant under His blood, and is He not the Mediator so we can go to the Throne of God to ask for the forgiveness of sin?
I would not disagree with that assessment, but I would also offer this – A “mediator” is a middleman, between two extremes. God who cannot sin, and man who will not refrain from sinning. Since Jesus was tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin, he knows the strength of lustful flesh, and can speak to the Father of these things with the knowlege of experience as to the pull of temptations.
Quote Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. In the old covenant animals (Lamb) was used, for atonement for sins, now we are under Jesus Blood and no other Scarifies is needed….
Peace Irene
Hmmmm…!!
Not quite dear sister – You must remember we are priests,whose job it is to offer our bodies a daily sacrifice, Holy, Acceptible to God – “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” [Rom 12:1]
There are actually six verses that deal with one aspect or another of this issue;
Mesitees = Mediator;
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Grace and Hope to your house from my house[/quote]
Paladin! In this post to me, you say that we offer our bodies as scarifies. I had said that Jesus is our perfect scarifies. Now I read in the post you make to Pierre, you say thisNo, my friend, I think the Malachai reference is to John the Baptist, the messenger of the covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice of the covenant, providing the blood of the covenant.
And I was right. Irene
I am bringing this up, so you Paladin can see why I said you contradicted yourself….Irene
Quote (Baker @ April 29 2011,01:22) Quote (Paladin @ April 28 2011,00:29) Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,23:48)
Paladin! There are three Scriptures talking about the Mediator, you mentioned 1 Tim. 2:5Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Jesus gave us a new covenant under His blood, and is He not the Mediator so we can go to the Throne of God to ask for the forgiveness of sin?
I would not disagree with that assessment, but I would also offer this – A “mediator” is a middleman, between two extremes. God who cannot sin, and man who will not refrain from sinning. Since Jesus was tempted in all points like as we, yet without sin, he knows the strength of lustful flesh, and can speak to the Father of these things with the knowlege of experience as to the pull of temptations.
Quote Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel. In the old covenant animals (Lamb) was used, for atonement for sins, now we are under Jesus Blood and no other Scarifies is needed….
Peace Irene
Hmmmm…!!
Not quite dear sister – You must remember we are priests,whose job it is to offer our bodies a daily sacrifice, Holy, Acceptible to God – “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.” [Rom 12:1]
There are actually six verses that deal with one aspect or another of this issue;
Mesitees = Mediator;
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Grace and Hope to your house from my house[/quote]
Paladin! In this post to me, you say that we offer our bodies as scarifies. I had said that Jesus is our perfect scarifies. Now I read in the post you make to Pierre, you say thisNo, my friend, I think the Malachai reference is to John the Baptist, the messenger of the covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice of the covenant, providing the blood of the covenant.
And I was right. Irene
But dear sister, your question and Pierre's question were not the same question.My response to his question has to do with who is the messenger of the covenant, and he was addressing the issue from the position of jesus being the messenger instead of the sacrifice.
My response to your question was related to your observation “now we are under Jesus Blood and no other Sacrifice is needed….”
You are correct that there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, but when we present our body a living sacrigfice, that is not a sacrifice for sin, it is simply a case of a saint responding to Paul's “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them.” [Eph 2:10]
It is a good work because God designed it. It is ours to do because God said to do it. We are not saved by our won works, but we are obedient by doing the works he designed and commanded for us to do.
We are a royal priesthood, and priests duties are to make sacrifices,a nd the Christian's highest sacrificial offer is to sacrifice his life to God daily, through Jesus Christ, to that Christ lives in me, and the “logos of God” becomes personified through the sacrifice of Christ making possible the sacrifice of me in christ, through the works designed by God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,11:34) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,12:24) But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning.
Hi Marty,Your own words are doing it again. You say if I can understand how he was IN the Father, then I can understand how he was WITH the Father. But IN and WITH carry different conotations.
Jesus asked to be glorified with the glory HE had. Do you see this? This is a man saying that HE HIMSELF actually POSSESSED glory while he was IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world.
Now I'll state my case once more: I don't care how many alternate meanings you can come up with to convince people that Jesus is NOT saying what he clearly IS saying. All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created.
What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
peace to you Marty,
mike
Hi Mike:What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
Jesus is not the Logos, but he is the “basis” for the whole of creation, and the Logos, the Word of God, speaks prophetically about him from beginning with the plan of God which states in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”. He is the culmination of God's plan for humanity. The last Adam who is the express image of God's person.
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic. God had forseen this from the beginning. And so, it was so from the beginning because God had foreordained it.
Was he already in the presence of God here or is this prophetic?
Quote Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Quote Acts 2:25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry. It was here that God sent him into the world to be the propitiation for our sins.
It was from the beginning that God had forseen that he would conceive a Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and that through him he would reconcile the world unto himself.
Quote Colossians 1:19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God through the perfect obedience to His Word, and so He could say, “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.
Love in Christ,
MartyPaladin!
Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Is this not speaking of both, John the Baptist the Messenger, and Jesus who is the Messenger of the New Covenant.
As far as the Sacrifice is concerned, I first mentioned the Old Covenant. Thinking that when I said that Jesus is our perfect Sacrifice, that it was understood, He is of the New Covenant. Especially since I had mentioned it before….Irene
Paladin
Quote I don't think so Pierre, because the Malachai passage is a reference to a messenger of the covenant who is desired by the people; but Isaiah says concerning Messiah – NO “”BEAUTY” FOUND IN HIM THAT WE SHOULD DESIRE HIM
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.No, my friend, I think the Malachai reference is to John the Baptist, the messenger of the covenant. Jesus was the sacrifice of the covenant, providing the blood of the covenant.
John the baptist is ;
Mal 3:1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me.Jesus Christ is;Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
you see God in prophesy does not pay attention to wicket people so the one he calls ;whom you desire;and seeking, those are the righteous who were waiting for the coming of the messiah.
Pierre
Quote (942767 @ April 29 2011,10:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,11:34) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,12:24) But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning.
Hi Marty,Your own words are doing it again. You say if I can understand how he was IN the Father, then I can understand how he was WITH the Father. But IN and WITH carry different conotations.
Jesus asked to be glorified with the glory HE had. Do you see this? This is a man saying that HE HIMSELF actually POSSESSED glory while he was IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world.
Now I'll state my case once more: I don't care how many alternate meanings you can come up with to convince people that Jesus is NOT saying what he clearly IS saying. All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created.
What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
peace to you Marty,
mike
Hi Mike:What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
Jesus is not the Logos, but he is the “basis” for the whole of creation, and the Logos, the Word of God, speaks prophetically about him from beginning with the plan of God which states in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”. He is the culmination of God's plan for humanity. The last Adam who is the express image of God's person.
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic. God had forseen this from the beginning. And so, it was so from the beginning because God had foreordained it.
Was he already in the presence of God here or is this prophetic?
Quote Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Quote Acts 2:25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry. It was here that God sent him into the world to be the propitiation for our sins.
It was from the beginning that God had forseen that he would conceive a Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and that through him he would reconcile the world unto himself.
Quote Colossians 1:19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God through the perfect obedience to His Word, and so He could say, “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyEze 12:28 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ ”
do you see what God says;
so you think that GoD speaks and not fulfill it ?,wen God say then it is done
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ April 29 2011,10:58) Quote (942767 @ April 29 2011,10:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,11:34) Quote (942767 @ April 25 2011,12:24) But what I indicated by what I have you was that Jesus said that “He was in the Father”, and so, if you can understand this, you will also understand how he was with the Father in the beginning.
Hi Marty,Your own words are doing it again. You say if I can understand how he was IN the Father, then I can understand how he was WITH the Father. But IN and WITH carry different conotations.
Jesus asked to be glorified with the glory HE had. Do you see this? This is a man saying that HE HIMSELF actually POSSESSED glory while he was IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world.
Now I'll state my case once more: I don't care how many alternate meanings you can come up with to convince people that Jesus is NOT saying what he clearly IS saying. All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created.
What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
peace to you Marty,
mike
Hi Mike:What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
Jesus is not the Logos, but he is the “basis” for the whole of creation, and the Logos, the Word of God, speaks prophetically about him from beginning with the plan of God which states in Genesis 1:26 “let us make man in our image”. He is the culmination of God's plan for humanity. The last Adam who is the express image of God's person.
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic. God had forseen this from the beginning. And so, it was so from the beginning because God had foreordained it.
Was he already in the presence of God here or is this prophetic?
Quote Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Quote Acts 2:25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry. It was here that God sent him into the world to be the propitiation for our sins.
It was from the beginning that God had forseen that he would conceive a Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and that through him he would reconcile the world unto himself.
Quote Colossians 1:19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God through the perfect obedience to His Word, and so He could say, “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyEze 12:28 “Therefore say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: None of my words will be delayed any longer; whatever I say will be fulfilled, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ ”
do you see what God says;
so you think that GoD speaks and not fulfill it ?,wen God say then it is done
Pierre
Hi Pierre:I don't see where you get the idea that I don't think that whatever God has spoken will be fulfilled from what I have written above.
Isn't that exactly what I have stated?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
Here's what I wanted from you:
Quote All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created. What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
You listed no scriptural reason at all in your post. Will you do so in your next post please? I, on the other hand, will actually address your points.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
Show me one single scripture that clearly teaches this claim.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
John 1 speaks of “the logos” who was someone other than THE God he was WITH in the beginning. Even the trinni's acknowledge that this “word” couldn't possibly be THE God he was WITH. (Come join me and Keith in the “Freak Greek” thread for this discussion.)Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic.
Marty, doesn't “prophetic” refer to something that WILL happen in the future? This is evidenced by the scriptures YOU quoted, showing that they truly are “prophetic” – for David spoke of things YET TO HAPPEN from his own place in time.What part of that fits in with John 17:5? Could Jesus have been talking of things YET TO HAPPEN by using PAST TENSE words like “the glory I HAD before the world”? Your argument doesn't fit the tense of Jesus' words.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry.
There are four of five HN members who think Jesus was “metaphorically begotten” when he was raised to heaven. This is the point I was refuting.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven
You own words show your confusion, Marty. Who exactly came from heaven? Jesus, or the spirit in him?peace to you (and I do hope you join me in “Freak Greek”)
mike
Quote (Baker @ April 28 2011,11:02) Paladin! Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Is this not speaking of both, John the Baptist the Messenger, and Jesus who is the Messenger of the New Covenant.
Hi Irene and Pierre,I also understand this scripture as you two do.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,18:52) Quote (Baker @ April 28 2011,11:02) Paladin! Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Is this not speaking of both, John the Baptist the Messenger, and Jesus who is the Messenger of the New Covenant.
Hi Irene and Pierre,I also understand this scripture as you two do.
mike
Mikeyes i know ,you remember wen Kathi came up with those scriptures and number them and after i show her that she did not have it right ,we never herd of it again,
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,11:52) Quote (Baker @ April 28 2011,11:02) Paladin! Mal 3:1 ¶ Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Is this not speaking of both, John the Baptist the Messenger, and Jesus who is the Messenger of the New Covenant.
Hi Irene and Pierre,I also understand this scripture as you two do.
mike
Right on Mike, and so does George…Lately I have been wondering about a lot of what goes on around HN….
Peace IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,11:51) Hi Marty, Here's what I wanted from you:
Quote All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created. What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
You listed no scriptural reason at all in your post. Will you do so in your next post please? I, on the other hand, will actually address your points.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
Show me one single scripture that clearly teaches this claim.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
John 1 speaks of “the logos” who was someone other than THE God he was WITH in the beginning. Even the trinni's acknowledge that this “word” couldn't possibly be THE God he was WITH. (Come join me and Keith in the “Freak Greek” thread for this discussion.)Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic.
Marty, doesn't “prophetic” refer to something that WILL happen in the future? This is evidenced by the scriptures YOU quoted, showing that they truly are “prophetic” – for David spoke of things YET TO HAPPEN from his own place in time.What part of that fits in with John 17:5? Could Jesus have been talking of things YET TO HAPPEN by using PAST TENSE words like “the glory I HAD before the world”? Your argument doesn't fit the tense of Jesus' words.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry.
There are four of five HN members who think Jesus was “metaphorically begotten” when he was raised to heaven. This is the point I was refuting.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven
You own words show your confusion, Marty. Who exactly came from heaven? Jesus, or the spirit in him?peace to you (and I do hope you join me in “Freak Greek”)
mike
“I have made thee a father of many nations” is past tense in English, but has not happened yet. It is the way God speaks.Mike………….All holy Spirits come from Heaven, the logos which was GOD (IN) the (MAN) Jesus came from heaven So how does that prove anything about you saying Jesus Preexisted as a Sentential being before his berth one earth. Now your defense is “HOW DOES THAT PREVENT ME FROM BELIEVING THE WAY I DO” It is not just one scripture that should prevent you and Irene and Pierre but many scripture put together that should prevent you. Most of your views completely ignores the Old testament scriptures that shows GOD alone and by himself created the world and everything in it. Not one scripture have you produced in the old testament that shows any activity of your preexistent Jesus. You completely ignore his genealogy given in both old and new testament to meet your teachings. Mike lets face it, you have been shown time and time again and even given the true Greek rendering of those questionable scriptures of yours you us over and over again, so it's really is not about truth your people care about but its your own pride that is the issue here.
Mike it is time for you and Irene and Pierre to face it Jesus did not preexist as a sentinel being before his berth on this earth he only existed in the Mind and will of GOD , Jesus was the fulfillment of GOD perfect work (IN) Humanity and He did this as a MAN born of a women a total Human Being with out any exception a finished human creation of GOD. GOD the FATHER did not bring Jesus forth from human kind to be separated from us , but to show us his plan for us all to attain the the “FULL MEASURE OF STATUE OF CHRIST” unto and Perfect man. Mike you guys need to see how damaging your wrong teachings do to the work of GOD and of Jesus before it is to late brother. IMO
Peace and love…………………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 30 2011,05:59) Mike………….All holy Spirits come from Heaven, the logos which was GOD (IN) the (MAN) Jesus came from heaven So how does that prove anything about you saying Jesus Preexisted as a Sentential being before his berth one earth. Now your defense is “HOW DOES THAT PREVENT ME FROM BELIEVING THE WAY I DO” It is not just one scripture that should prevent you and Irene and Pierre but many scripture put together that should prevent you. Most of your views completely ignores the Old testament scriptures that shows GOD alone and by himself created the world and everything in it. Not one scripture have you produced in the old testament that shows any activity of your preexistent Jesus. You completely ignore his genealogy given in both old and new testament to meet your teachings. Mike lets face it, you have been shown time and time again and even given the true Greek rendering of those questionable scriptures of yours you us over and over again, so it's really is not about truth your people care about but its your own pride that is the issue here. Mike it is time for you and Irene and Pierre to face it Jesus did not preexist as a sentinel being before his berth on this earth he only existed in the Mind and will of GOD , Jesus was the fulfillment of GOD perfect work (IN) Humanity and He did this as a MAN born of a women a total Human Being with out any exception a finished human creation of GOD. GOD the FATHER did not bring Jesus forth from human kind to be separated from us , but to show us his plan for us all to attain the the “FULL MEASURE OF STATUE OF CHRIST” unto and Perfect man. Mike you guys need to see how damaging your wrong teachings do to the work of GOD and of Jesus before it is to late brother. IMO
Peace and love…………………………………………gene
Geneagain just opinions ,points of personal views,is that all you ever have to show your faith in God and Christ ?
are you sure to be a Christian ?
Pierre
Quote (Paladin @ April 29 2011,20:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2011,11:51) Hi Marty, Here's what I wanted from you:
Quote All I want to know from any of you is why this scripture CAN'T POSSIBLY be saying the person of Jesus had glory alongside God before the world was created. What SCRIPTURE prohibits my understanding of this verse?
AGAIN, I DON'T ASK FOR ALTERNATE THINGS IT COULD MEAN, BUT FOR A SCRIPTURAL REASON WHY IT CAN'T MEAN WHAT IRENE, PIERRE AND I UNDERSTAND IT TO MEAN.
You listed no scriptural reason at all in your post. Will you do so in your next post please? I, on the other hand, will actually address your points.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What I am trying to show you by this is that Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person.
Show me one single scripture that clearly teaches this claim.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
John 1 states in the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.
John 1 speaks of “the logos” who was someone other than THE God he was WITH in the beginning. Even the trinni's acknowledge that this “word” couldn't possibly be THE God he was WITH. (Come join me and Keith in the “Freak Greek” thread for this discussion.)Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
What you are stating about him dwelling in the God's presence from the foundation of the world is prophetic.
Marty, doesn't “prophetic” refer to something that WILL happen in the future? This is evidenced by the scriptures YOU quoted, showing that they truly are “prophetic” – for David spoke of things YET TO HAPPEN from his own place in time.What part of that fits in with John 17:5? Could Jesus have been talking of things YET TO HAPPEN by using PAST TENSE words like “the glory I HAD before the world”? Your argument doesn't fit the tense of Jesus' words.
Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And to your statement somewhere in this discussion that Jesus had to pre-exist as God's only begotten Son when he was speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 because the scripture states that God gave his Only Begotten Son. Of course he did, he was born into this world, and at the age of 30 he was ordained for his ministry.
There are four of five HN members who think Jesus was “metaphorically begotten” when he was raised to heaven. This is the point I was refuting.Quote (942767 @ April 28 2011,10:45)
And so, yes, he came from heaven. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born into this world as an infant, a living soul, and his spirit came from heaven
You own words show your confusion, Marty. Who exactly came from heaven? Jesus, or the spirit in him?peace to you (and I do hope you join me in “Freak Greek”)
mike
“I have made thee a father of many nations” is past tense in English, but has not happened yet. It is the way God speaks.
Hi Mike:Both his body and his spirit came from heaven, but his spirit is what defines who he is. It is by his works of obedience to God's Word that he could say: “he who hath seen me has seen the Father.
And he said when the jews and disciples did not understand him when he was talking of eating his flesh and drinking his blood:
Quote John 6:50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Quote John 6:61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
And so, his body came from heaven in that he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, but it is the Word of God that he obeyed in the body that defines who he is, and so the following scriptures state:
Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And no, his body could not been pre-existent in heaven in the form of flesh. He could not have pre-existed as a man because:
Quote Genesis 3:20
And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all livingQuote Matthew 1:20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the H
oly Ghost.21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Was the Word of God that he obeyed with God in the beginning. Well the scriptures state:
Quote John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
I hope that this satisfies your demands because I am not going to go beyond this. Jesus existed in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world in the way that I have described toyou by God's own Word.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty
Quote Jesus existed in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world in the way that I have described to you by God's own Word. were does it say that Jesus was in the heart of the Father? would that as well include all of creation,because that is part of Christ and the WORD of GOD ;John 1;1 and 2-3 ;
with you logic;3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
so nothing was never done ? until Jesus came on earth, ? but then who made the creation that was living then ,and way before that time ?your view is foggy for the least,no?
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ April 30 2011,10:57) Marty Quote Jesus existed in the heart of the Father before the foundation of the world in the way that I have described to you by God's own Word. were does it say that Jesus was in the heart of the Father? would that as well include all of creation,because that is part of Christ and the WORD of GOD ;John 1;1 and 2-3 ;
with you logic;3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made
so nothing was never done ? until Jesus came on earth, ? but then who made the creation that was living then ,and way before that time ?your view is foggy for the least,no?
Pierre
Pierre:Jesus is not the creator. He is the “basis for the whole of creation”. God made everything knowing that a particular point in time he would conceive a Son through whom his plan for this world and humanity would be fulfilled.
Quote Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he(God) made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Genesis 1 states:
Quote 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. There is “ONLY ONE GOD”.
Love in Christ,
MartyAlso, Jesus could not have pre-existed as an angel because of the following scripture:
Quote Hebrews 1:4-5 (King James Version) 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Love in Christ,
Marty
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