Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ April 25 2011,09:14)

(Mike) Hi Marty, First of all, he was the “Son of Man” ever since Daniel prophesied about him. Very Good Mike. Now tell us why you deny that very same application to the incarnate Christ?

Hi Paladin,

Cyrus didn't pre-exist his flesh.  Cyrus did not begin “existing”, or “become incarnate”, until he was physically born in the flesh – even though he was prophesied about 400 years before this happened.  So Cyrus did not become God's anointed and shepherd until he was born.  He did not begin to literally be these things from the moment God spoke of him, and that's why you won't find any writer speaking of Cyrus existing “in the form of God” 400 years before his birth, and then being “made in the likeness of a human being”.

Jesus, on the other hand, DID pre-exist his flesh, and so could have actually BEEN the prophesied about “Son of Man” before he came in the flesh.  He could have been the promised Messiah before he came in the flesh.  Why?  Because he already existed as a person, and therefore could be somebody.

Cyrus did not exist as a person before his flesh, and therefore couldn't actually be God's servant until he DID exist.

If you want to discuss this more, then please first address my 5 bolded points from before………directly.  

peace,
mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,11:59)

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,18:52) I was looking in the preexisting Tread, and seen the post t8 made with all those Scriptures.  however it is in the first part of that tread.  I tried to paste and copy it, but I am not so swift with something like that.  I also can;t bring that tread up since it's closed. Do you know how to do that?  I would really like to bring that up…. Peace Irene Sure.  Tell me which page, which post on that page, and where you want it copied to.   mike

Mike! It is in the Preexisting Part 1, on page 1000. And I would like to bring it to preexisting Part 2, can you do that?
Peace Irene

[mikeboll64]

Hi Irene,

The thread is locked, so it didn't copy with all the colors and links t8 originally used. But it's there in part 2 for you. Perhaps t8 could later replace it with the original, complete with colors and links.

peace,
mike

[Baker]

Thank you Mike….

Marty, go to the Preexisting Tread.  Mike just put an Article down that t8 made.  lots of scriptures that prove the Preexisting of Jesus.  I could not say it any better then t8 did….
Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike…………Why did not any disciple or Jesus himself say clearly that he preexisted before he was ever born on earth. You use only texts you can force to go with your teachings while ignoring countless others that go against those teachings, Surely such a great thing as Jesus preexistence would have been the main topic when all the apostles were relating to Him right?. Why not even ONE , Just say Jesus was alive before he was born on earth, as a whatever, JUST ONE Clearly Say it, and expound on it so none of us would have any doubts about it. Why is this so called incarnation or Morphed experience never even talked about in any kind of detail? Surely his disciples would have completely understood it. Why does Peter only say He was “FOREORDAINED” before the foundations of the earth but was manifested in our time surely Peter and John and all the others would have known and relayed its importance to us all if that were the case right, but scripture is silent about it and no one here or anywhere else ever given us any idea what he was in his pre-earth existence just complete silence about such a major point in Trinitarian and Preexistence Teaching and Doctrines. Why is that Mike?

peace and love………………………………………………..gene

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,14:08)

Hi Irene, The thread is locked, so it didn't copy with all the colors and links t8 originally used.  But it's there in part 2 for you.    Perhaps t8 could later replace it with the original, complete with colors and links. peace, mike

Thanks again, it is good just like that…… But of course it would be better with colors.
I am getting to old for all of this. Therefore I am so glad you, Pierre and t8 are here for support….Being German I get really hot under the collar when some like Marty say something according to their believes, and not according how those Scriptures are written…..

Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,05:59)

Mike !  You are probably right.  Except Paladin never said that.  Even if Jesus did not exist before the world was, He was different from the beginning of His birth.  I have never seen a12 year old boy go into the Temple and preach!!!  Have you?  He also was not conceived like a Human being.  He is the literal Son of God, not made from the dust of the earth.  And His body did not see decay, like all or most will…..Only those at the end time will change in an twinkle of the eye… Corinth. 15:52…..Peace Irene

Edna Hammers at age seven had her own gospel show.

Larry Hal Larimore; Pentecostal preacher, started preaching in 1957 at age three.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,05:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,04:26) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,09:03) One set of believes separates Jesus from our exact identity ,while the other accepts Jesus as an identical human being See what I was saying in that long post, Marty?  One cannot possibly hope to let the scriptures TEACH THEM when they have already made their mind up about certain things before hand. mike Mike!  Don't you wonder some times why that is?  I mean, so many plain written Scriptures and still they deny them… Peace and Love Irene…..

Dear sister;

May I ask you to tell me what you think “from heaven” means?

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,07:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:34) Yeah Irene. I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.   And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty.  He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist:  He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians.  And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.   mike Mike!  And I told Paladin that WJ our anyone believing in the trinity don't believe Jesus had a beginning.  And still He thinks the Scholars somehow added something, at least that is what I understood from His long post to me. Did you read that?  I do know that some punctuations was added, but not 50 Scriptures.  So far I have not received an answer to my reply….. Irene

Dear Sister, I apologize for seeming to abandon you, but that is not the case. I find myself in the predicament of having to prioritize my responses because I am having a hard time with this medical treatment I am going through. One more week and the treatment series will be half over.

In the meantime, I try to focus on first one author, then another, and I have not responded to You nor to Gene in quite some time now. It is not for lack of interest, and no, I am not “:through with you.” Please do not be offended if I delay a responjse from time to time.

Also, do not hesitate to remind me, if you have posted to me, because it entirely possible with the volume of messages going on right now, I could very well overlook something that to you is very important.

Grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine.

[terraricca]

Quote (Paladin @ April 27 2011,00:39)

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,05:59) Mike !  You are probably right.  Except Paladin never said that.  Even if Jesus did not exist before the world was, He was different from the beginning of His birth.  I have never seen a12 year old boy go into the Temple and preach!!!  Have you?  He also was not conceived like a Human being.  He is the literal Son of God, not made from the dust of the earth.  And His body did not see decay, like all or most will…..Only those at the end time will change in an twinkle of the eye… Corinth. 15:52…..Peace Irene Edna Hammers at age seven had her own gospel show. Larry Hal Larimore; Pentecostal preacher, started preaching in 1957 at age three.

Paladin

there are many child performers, in all discipline even religion.

Christ was not a performer, he was the true son of God ,and he knew at 12 year old.

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:34)

Yeah Irene. I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.   And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty.  He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist:  He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians.  And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.   mike

Mike;

Do you believe as I do, that Jesus was so different from us in many ways pertaining to sin and human nature, that there is no way we can ever be exactly like he was? Perfect and in control at all times?

This does not say we should ever abandon effort to follow his example, nor even use his perfection for an excuse for our own imperfection.

I know for a fact, some folks excuse their own behaviour based on “everybody sins.” as though that justifies bad behaviour.

It's kinda' like the man who prayed “God be merciful to me, the sinner” which is almost always mistranslated to read “God be merciful to me, a sinner.” [Luke 18:13]

If I aknowledge I am a sinner, what have I said? Only that I am just like everyone else. But if, when in prayer, I acknowledge that between God and I, He is my God, and I am the sinner. I think the article makes a vast difference in this case.

What say you?

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,07:57)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,06:34) Yeah Irene. I don't know why Gene can't see that even if he didn't pre-exist, he STILL was never “exactly like us” anyway.   And you are right about Paladin, which is why I didn't include his name in my post to Marty.  He has a different personal reason for Jesus not to pre-exist:  He thinks for some reason that the pre-existence of Jesus supports the Trinitarians.  And because he doesn't believe the trinity to be truth, he is seemingly willing to overlook our 50 scriptures, or give nonsensical alternate meanings to them, in an effort to “sock it to the trinni's”.   mike Mike!  And I told Paladin that WJ our anyone believing in the trinity don't believe Jesus had a beginning.  And still He thinks the Scholars somehow added something, at least that is what I understood from His long post to me. Did you read that?  I do know that some punctuations was added, but not 50 Scriptures.  So far I have not received an answer to my reply….. Irene

Dear Sister;

I did not say anyone added the fifty scriptures you reference. I said they added chapter and verse separations and numbers, and punctuation.

The reason I do not respond to every scripture offered in rebuttal by you and Mike, has nothing to do with inability to respond to them, it has to do with my time being in short supply and great demand; and an expectation that sooner or later some of this will begin to make sense to you, eliminating the need to respond to the rest of it.

I am sure you feel the same about me in light of your efforts to convince me of what you believe. So, let us not grow weary in well doing.

Grace and hope from my house to your house.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,12:31)

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47) 1) Who did he pre-exist as? He was not God: Not that it's important we know every detail about Jesus' pre-existence, but you are correct that he was not THE God he was with in the beginning. Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47) He was not an angel: Sure he was.  “Aggelos” simply means “messenger”, and Jesus, Gabriel and John the Baptist were all “aggelos” of their God.  If you would like to join in the “god the angel” thread, feel free. Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47) If he was God's son before the earth was created, please explain why he was “begotten this day referencing the day of his resurrection, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee” [Psalm 2:7]; But just quickly, in what way has God GIVEN His only begotten Son after he was raised?  For God to GIVE His only begotten Son, Jesus must have BEEN His only begotten Son before God GAVE him, right?

He didn't. You are confusing John's narative with the chronology of facts.

By the time John is writing, Jesus has long since been ascended to God's right hand. But John is telling the facts that led up to the ascension, and those facts include the death, burial, and resurrection, leading to the ascension.

So when John tells us “God gave his only begotten son,” he is telling us the whole purpose of the gospel story, followed by a more descriptive account with details not mentioned in the short narative.

Quote

(John 3:16……..also see 3:18, which says certain men had already been condemned for already having not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son.  That couldn't have happened if there wasn't a name of God's only begotten Son for people to have believed or not believed in at that time.)

That is exactly what I have been trying to get you to see about John's prologue; John covers the history of the church beginning with the mission of Jesus, and covering approximately sixty-six years till the writing of his gospel.

He tells us of those who received Jesus, and those who received him not; he tells us of the effort to bring light to the world, and the love the world has for the darkness; he tells us of those who believe on his name being given power to become sons of God, and he tells us all of this before ever telling us of the logos becoming flesh. If the logos is a reference to Jesus, then John must be telling us of things Jesus did before he was born, if your understanding of John 1 is correct.

but I see here in John 3 you understand precisley what I have been saying about John 1 because you apply the same principle to John 3 I have applied to John 1.

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;

(Mike) What promise did God fulfill by raising up Jesus?  Look farther back in the passage you quoted for the answer.  God never promised to “beget a son” someday, so that surely wasn't the promise, was it?[/quote]

Nope! God promised “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deut 18:15,18-19]

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

Luke, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, quotes Moses' statement of Deut 18 and applies it to Jesus; “For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.” [Acts 3:22-25]

Do you begin to comprehend why you need a good working knowledge of the old testament and the prophecies to understand the new testament, Mike?

Quote

I won't have a battle of “the million word posts” with you, for you are obviously capable of making your posts bigger than life itself.  That's why I make my posts to you more “focused” on one point at a time, so I don't have to deal with your every thought about scripture at once.

Some boards have available to the posters, something called “spell check,” and some boards have available to the posters something called “Word count.” I think as a moderator, you should put in for the “word count” availability.

Did you know God used 783,137 words to teach us what it is all about, and you object to just a few hundred?

That is why I do not answer all of your questions, Mike. but do you notice, I usually do not ask anyone why they do not reapond to a particular point in my post. I expect that sometimes they simply are not interested in persuing a subject; sometimes they simply want more time to study the issue; and sometimes they get tired in the middle of a response. You might hav eyour own reasons. I respect that.

As for responding to your latest version of “back to the question,” not interested. I respond to it when you thought you had a proof-text in John 6:62, when you applied “blepo” to John's question, and I gave you what you asked for, a respond to what John said, only it was not “bleop” oriented.

Now, you don';t like that answer, and are fishing for a way to trap me in your word, not in scripture's words. Scripture never uses the expression “eye witness” because when God taught with prophecy, and showed many proofs of events, he did not need eye witnesses, and do you know why? Because it is only man who requires eye witness testimony about things no one saw. But God still called them witnesses, and qualified an Apostle as a witness, without that apostle seing as an eye witness of the Christ walking away from the tomb.

That is your requirement, and not scriptures, so I will not respond to it anymore than I already have. John 6:62 is not a proof-text to your position, it is a proof-text to mine. I am satisfied to leave it at that, without continually trying to rectify a previous effort.

Peace, Mike.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,13:12)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,19:46) Remember we are told to seek and we will find Knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given to us. “Let him who lacks wisdom and understanding Ask” . And also remember “THE (SUM) OF GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH”. Hello Gene, It's hard for you to ask for the truth when you apparently had it before you even opened a Bible.  I really don't know what's so hard about it.  If Jesus point blank says, “I came down from heaven”, and the Jews point blank say, “How can this dude we know all of a sudden say he came down from heaven”, then what's to question? The Jews surely understood the words coming out of Jesus' mouth.  You call him your Lord, so why don't you believe him when he says he came down from heaven? mike

Actually, the Jews understood nothing Jesus said, and even the disciples need Jesus' explanatins to help them understand, because Jesus never spoke to the crowds other than in parables.

MAT 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they
were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

And he said, unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God; but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. [Luke 8:10]

Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my logos. [John 8:43]

He hath blinded their eyes and heardened their heart that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them. [John 12:40]

This is jjust a few of many verses that teach this.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,13:48)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) Hi Mike: Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us. Hi Marty, I don't personally believe 3:15 to be a messianic prophecy, but I get your point.  And I understand what you claim with 1 Peter 1, but tell me this:  Does Jesus being manifest to us in these last days mean that he couldn't have already existed with glory alongside God before the creation of the world?  Not at all, right?  See what I've been saying?  You can post many scriptures that you say mean Jesus didn't pre-exist.  But those scriptures would mean the exact same thing whether he did or didn't, and so are not any kind of proof that he didn't.  Seriously Marty…………..tell me honestly how 1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus didn't exist before he was made manifest to us.  It doesn't, does it? Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) This is what the scripture states: 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; No, actually…………THIS is what the scripture states: For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people. It is saying that the one who NOW mediates between us and God WAS once the man who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Compare that scripture with Galatians 1:1, 11, 1 Cor 15:45, 50, and 2 Cor 3:17-18.  What we have is one scripture that could possibly be saying that Jesus is STILL a man, but doesn't necessarily say that.  And on the other hand, we have 6 scriptures that CLEARLY say he is now a spirit and cannot be a man, because men consist of flesh, and flesh cannot enter into heaven.  So I'll go with the understanding that 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is speaking about one who WAS the man who gave himself as a ransom……………..because that is the understanding that reconciles with the other six scriptures. Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) The scripture also states that he is the last Adam, but he is still the son of man, but now he has a spiritual body, and he has life eternal. I agree 100% with that statement. Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) He is no longer a mortal man, but nevertheless he is still a man. “Man” is the Greek word “anthropos”, which means “human being”.  We know that all human beings have flesh, and we know that flesh cannot enter heaven.  So I disagree with your understanding that Jesus is still a “man”. Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) Mike, I cannot believe that I am hearing this from you.  You say, “Jesus is no longer the son of man”.  Why then did he say, “what if you see the son of man ascend where he was before”? You can't believe I said it………….because I didn't.    You have misunderstood me, Marty.  I don't claim that Jesus is no longer the “Son of Man”.  I claim that Jesus doesn't have to be a literal human being now in order to be the “Son of Man”, and therefore didn't have to be a literal human being born of Mary to be the “Son of Man” who came down from heaven. peace, mike

Psalm 80:17 Let thy hand be upon the aneer [man] of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the aneer [man] that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts:

John 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a aneer [man] which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a anthropos [man] that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that aneer [man] whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the anthropos [man] Christ Jesus;

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 25 2011,16:15)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,13:59) Good work Irene.   mike Thank you Mike, so do you….just wish some would take those Scriptures the way they are written, and don't interpret the way they want them to look.  I simple don't get it……Or maybe I do…. One day we all will know the truth.  When our King of Kings and Lord of Lords return,  only the truth will be taught….. Peace Irene

So dear sister, does that mean you are in agreement that Adam preceded Christ?

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Christ Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first anthrwpos [man] is of the earth, earthy: the second anthrwpos [man] is the Lord from heaven.

The last [man] is the Lord from heaven — were there men in heaven? What does “from heaven” mean to you dear sister?

grace and hope from my house to your house

[terraricca]

Paladin

Quote

(Mike) What promise did God fulfill by raising up Jesus?  Look farther back in the passage you quoted for the answer.  God never promised to “beget a son” someday, so that surely wasn't the promise, was it?

yes God did;Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,

Isa 66:7 “Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.

and the angel of God says;Lk 1:31 You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus.

he was a son ,a prophet,and became a priest.

Pierre

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,01:05)

Paladin!  So every time it says which is in Heaven, it is not there in  the original transcript?  What about came down from Heaven?

Come on Irene, we were talking about one verse, and yes, when that verse comes up it still does not have the ending in Greek that it has in English.

Quote

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Please tell me what “from heaven” means to you.

Quote

And John 3:13 first says Jhn 3:13   And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.   He ascended up to Heaven, No other man did, but he that came from Heaven….. the rest does not matter anyway…..I believe this shows that NO MAN ever ascended to Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven.  If that is in the original transcript the rest “which is in  Heaven' does not matter.

It matters if it is the explanation.

Quote

Christians today believe that when they die they go either to Heaven or to Hell.  Another subject, but nobody has gone to Heaven excerpt Jesus who came down from Heaven.  And I believe that Scripture John is revealing that…..like John 6:38…… Mark 1:30 does make more sense like you said….. Are you now done with me, because you have not aswered my post to you on page 99……or did you even read it…..

Quote (Baker @ April 24 2011,12:23)

Paladin! You quoted that Romans 9:5 is being used to prove the trinity. I have not seen that here on Heaven Net. I agree that the Scholars added the punctuation, but that they added 50 Scriptures that I don't believe.

I did not say that.

Quote

Now about what Jesus is after His resurrection from the death. What purpose is there that Jesus is flesh and Spirit. Scriptures tell us otherwise. 1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Christ Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first anthrwpos [man] is of the earth, earthy: the second anthrwpos [man] is the Lord from heaven.

So you agree now that it was a man in heaven? A man like Adam? “Anthropos?”

Quote

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Even if Jesus blood was drained, Scripture does say, NO FLESH will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Where does it say that? I see your reference where it says “flesh and blood” but where is your reference where it says “flesh” will not inherit?

Quote

God is Spirit. And those that are with God, like Jesus is seated next to Almighty God could not be in flesh. And how can flesh be without the body. And the body could not be alive without blood. So I don't believe that to be true….. .and how can you prove that.

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

If the resurrected body is not mortal, how can it put on immortality? Flesh is corruptible, but puts on incorruptibility, but it is still flesh; only it is now flesh clothed in immortality.

If this is stillnot clear, let me know and I will try again.

Grace and Hope to your house from my house

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 26 2011,11:11)

Quote (Paladin @ April 26 2011,10:16) Quote (942767 @ April 26 2011,05:49) Hi Paladin: I am sorry that this thread is way off topic and has taken a turn from what you intended to another thread for the discussion of the doctrine of pre-existence. Since I am not versed in the Greek language, please do me the favor of giving me your understanding, using your very best Greek, of Philippians 2:6. Thank you very much, Love in Christ, Marty Philippians 2:6 cannot be understood separate from 5, 7, & 8 because it is one long sentence, with 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross Watch as verse five introduces a thought using an imperative verb, which can only be obeyed in future action. That is a characteristic of all imperatives, they establish the present, because all responses to the imperative are future. If I stick my head into a crowded room and yell “Run” there is no way the people could have already ran, nor can they be running while I am crying out the imperative command to do so. Paul tells us to have the same mind as Christ Jesus who, being in God's form, did not consider equality with God his by right of taking it by force. Jesus was acknowledging his power, but not his right. Equality with God was not his by right. You have enquired about the Greek of this verse; “Being” is a Greek compound word-form, from “upo” and “arxee” which separately mean to begin under, or less than. If Jesus is being compared to a man, the word would be huperupswsen instead of uparxwn. It represents the difference in the english between hyperthermia (a fever) and hypothermia (freezing). The word translated “robbery” is the Greek word harpagmos, used throught both testaments to reference robbery, rapine, thuggery, and such like, with the exception that when it is applied to activity by God, it references a taking without notice Which is the good equivalent of the bad snatching by robbery or force. . 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: verse 6 “form” is the Greek word telling us Jesus was not God, but was a form of God. It should be evident to all concerned, you cannot be both the thing under consideration, and a form of the same thing. Being a form of God, Jesus was a man, who was born to be a king – “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.” [John 18:37] Jesus was a man who could have commanded angels – “Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?” [Mat 26:53] But instead of ruling in the kingdoms of men, and commanding angels, which as a form of God, he was qualified to do, he instead  “…made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” [Php 2:7], when he washed the disciples feet. ” He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. 5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?  7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter. 8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.” [John 13:4-15] It was as a humble teacher among men Jesus was arrested. the soldiers did not come out to take him with an army, as though he was a leader of an army. He was in form of a servant, in fashion as a man, a commoner, not a kingly commander of angels. “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” [Php 2:8] With Jesus it was always about obedience to his Father's will, the purpose for which he was raised from among his Hebrew brethren; “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” [Deut 18:18-19] This is basically the significance of the message in Philippians two. May I hasten to point out, my friend, it is not necessary to know Greek to follow the message of the new testment, if, and that's a big “IF” you have a working knowledge of the old testament. If you understand the old testament, and both Abrahamic covenants, you will never be bothered by Jesus being equal with everlasting God, nor will he be pre-existent. The old testament covers that issue very well, and the new does not contradict it unless you begin at John's gospel for your definitions of Paul's words. Paladin!   Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:   Is WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MAN. in  the Greek?  Because this is what is the most important part of that Scripture. if He was already a man, He would not have to be MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF  MAN.  That is what Mike always quotes. Peace Irene

Dear sister;

The word that is translated “was made” is the Greek word
“genomenos” which references a process of becoming, as in James 1:12, [KJV] “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he genomenos [is tried], he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

Greek Interlinear version = “Blessed the man who endures trial, because approved genomenos [having become], he will receive the crown of life, which he promised to the ones loving him.”

The ones who were approved were men, who endured trials, and having become approved, are still the men they began as, only something about them has changed.

So also, Christ was in form of God, born to be king, could command angels, became a server
of men, (washed the disciples feet), being found in fashion as a man”

“being found” is from the Greek “euriskw” (pronounced heurisko) which means “to discover with observation without previous search.” This was done when the disciples saw Jesus washing their feet. They could in no way have discovered a prior deity becoming a man, by observation without prior searching.

He was already a man, but not just any man. He was born to be king, could have commanded angels, but washed the disciples feet. The disciples understood him to be a servant, not by researching his lineage from David, of royalty, but by observing servitude in his actions.

Yes, dear sister, a man can be already a man, and still become a different kind of man.

Like in the military, a man joins the army as a cadet, but becomes a military leader of armies (napolean, for example); he begins as a humble cadet, but is found to be a leader, in the fashion of a General. (As opposed to a Mayor of a town).

This is how Jesus was made in the form of a servant; when he was born in the form of a king. He was found in fashion as a man, but was born in fashion as a king; a descendant of David, in line for the throne through both David, and Mary.

Grace and Hope to you.

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2011,12:26)

Quote (Paladin @ April 25 2011,09:14) (Mike) Hi Marty, First of all, he was the “Son of Man” ever since Daniel prophesied about him. Very Good Mike. Now tell us why you deny that very same application to the incarnate Christ? Hi Paladin, Cyrus didn't pre-exist his flesh.  Cyrus did not begin “existing”, or “become incarnate”, until he was physically born in the flesh – even though he was prophesied about 400 years before this happened.  So Cyrus did not become God's anointed and shepherd until he was born.  He did not begin to literally be these things from the moment God spoke of him, and that's why you won't find any writer speaking of Cyrus existing “in the form of God” 400 years before his birth, and then being “made in the likeness of a human being”. Jesus, on the other hand, DID pre-exist his flesh, and so could have actually BEEN the prophesied about “Son of Man” before he came in the flesh.  He could have been the promised Messiah before he came in the flesh.  Why?  Because he already existed as a person, and therefore could be somebody. Cyrus did not exist as a person before his flesh, and therefore couldn't actually be God's servant until he DID exist. If you want to discuss this more, then please first address my 5 bolded points from before………directly.   peace, mike

You still don't get it do you Mike? If God speaks of a matter, it is already real. He named Cyrus, as King of Persia almost two hundred years before Cyrus was born, yet said of him “He is my shepherd,” “I [have held](aorist active) thy hand,” “I have girded thee,” “I have held thy right hand,” “I called thee by thy name,” “I girded thee,” though thou hast not known me.”

Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; 2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

As far as God was concerned, Cyrus was established; As far as Israel was concerned, the nation was taken into captivity by the Medes who later merged with the Persians, and Cyrus inherited the captives; but the captive never gave up hope because they knew God had named Cyrus who would free them to rebuild the temple and city.

So, it really does not matter my friend, whether Cyrus was incarnated at the time of isaiah, he still had an effect by reason of the prophesy itself, as though he was in existance in Isaiah's time.

Yet Jesus did not exist except in prophecy, just as Cyrus did, and you see one real, but deny the other.

Amazing what power doctrine holds over scripture.

[Author]

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