Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,08:36)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,15:12) He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time. No he wasn't Marty.  Many mss don't even have the last line:  “Who is in heaven”.  And others have “who WAS in heaven” or “who is FROM heaven”. Remember that the Greek language has an historical present tense, which many English translators render as a simple English past tense. So your “who IS in heaven” could just as faithfully be “who WAS in heaven”.  And “who WAS in heaven” is the translation that fits in with what Jesus had just said. mike

Hi Mike:

Yes, you are right, some manuscripts have it one way, and others another, so take your choice, right? This is the way that YLT has it:

Quote

Jhn 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

But even so, this states that the Son of man came down from heaven. He wasn't the Son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, how are you going to explain this to support your doctrine of pre-existence?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57)

how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted: “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” Love in Christ, Marty

I don't know Marty.  Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,17:13)

Yes, you are right, some manuscripts have it one way, and others another, But even so, this states that the Son of man came down from heaven.  He wasn't the Son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, how are you going to explain this to support your doctrine of pre-existence?

Hi Marty,

First of all, he was the “Son of Man” ever since Daniel prophesied about him.  It is the title he chose to use to refer to himself more than any other title.  And like his Father did so often in the OT, the Son also refers to himself in the third person many times.  But you have to realize that when Jesus says “the Son of Man” did this, or will do that, it is Jesus saying, “I” did this or will do that.

Jesus also says the Son of Man will come on the clouds in the future.  But Jesus was literally a son of mankind only through Mary, and that son died on the stake for our sins.  Jesus is now a powerful spirit at the right hand of God, and no longer a human being.  So how is it that he says the “Son of Man” will come on the clouds, when he is no longer a human being?

Marty, why do you think Jesus chose the title “Son of Man” when his Father was God all along?  It was to show the people that he was the “son of man” in Daniel's prophecy.  Otherwise, saying he was a son of man wouldn't mean diddly because everyone he was talking to was also a son of man.

And Jesus was this same prophesied about “son of man” even before he became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

1) Who did he pre-exist as? He was not God:

Not that it's important we know every detail about Jesus' pre-existence, but you are correct that he was not THE God he was with in the beginning.

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

He was not an angel:

Sure he was.  “Aggelos” simply means “messenger”, and Jesus, Gabriel and John the Baptist were all “aggelos” of their God.  If you would like to join in the “god the angel” thread, feel free.

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

If he was God's son before the earth was created, please explain why he was “begotten this day referencing the day of his resurrection, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee” [Psalm 2:7];

Feel free to also post this in the “When was Jesus begotten” thread.  But just quickly, in what way has God GIVEN His only begotten Son after he was raised?  For God to GIVE His only begotten Son, Jesus must have BEEN His only begotten Son before God GAVE him, right?  (John 3:16……..also see 3:18, which says certain men had already been condemned for already having not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son.  That couldn't have happened if there wasn't a name of God's only begotten Son for people to have believed or not believed in at that time.)

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;

What promise did God fulfill by raising up Jesus?  Look farther back in the passage you quoted for the answer.  God never promised to “beget a son” someday, so that surely wasn't the promise, was it?

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

How can God be a high priest?

Where is this coming from? Who said he was?  

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

The problem with tha tis, it is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the creation in which Jesus took part was called “new creation.”

Oh!  Thanks for reminding me of another point I made to you………….but you ditched.  Does Heb 1:2 say “ages” – as in more than one age – were created through Jesus?

Quote (Paladin @ April 24 2011,15:47)

As for your lates post to me, you say “Let us go back to my questions” but you leave out the question we would have to “go back” to. It dealt with John 6:62 –

I would prefer you post my actual questions to you, then respond to them directly, AND EVER SO BRIEFLY please.  Feel free to use any of the scriptures from this post to answer them, but actually answer the questions I actually asked in the process, okay?

Paladin, you do this often.  You avoid answering my actual post TO YOU, citing some lame excuse of how I said some offensive word or what not……….but then you hijack my posts to someone else.

I won't have a battle of “the million word posts” with you, for you are obviously capable of making your posts bigger than life itself.  That's why I make my posts to you more “focused” on one point at a time, so I don't have to deal with your every thought about scripture at once.

So please, just answer the exact questions I asked you………….and I will respond accordingly.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Mike……….That is absurd , Jesus was not a son of man until he became a son of Man. That is what you also so with your preexistence teachings, you are assuming things that are not truly being Specifically said as 99% of all Christendom does. You need to try to listen to what Paladin and Marty are saying brother even if you don't care to listen to me, Come out of those false teachings while there is still time Mike. You have bought into MYSTERY RELIGIOUS teachings that creates all kinds of false doctrines and teachings. Pray and ask GOD to open the Eye of your understanding Mike and don't worry about trying to back you own position on things (that is just pride) but seek clear and exact truth, without any suppositions or superstitions or false traditions . Remember we are told to seek and we will find Knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given to us. “Let him who lacks wisdom and understanding Ask” . And also remember “THE (SUM) OF GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH”. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ April 25 2011,08:47)

mike[/quote] Missed it a mile Mike. I do not believe the scriptures teach a pre-existant Jesus for several scriptural reason; 1) Who did he pre-exist as? He was not God: God says he is a singular person being [Gen 17:1] and a singular being deity [Exo 3:14]; that there is no othher God bveside him [Isa 43:10]; No God after him [Isa 43:10]; No God beside him [Isa 44:6]; No God “other” [Isa 44:8]. He was not an angel: “When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?  5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:” [Psa 8:3-6] “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” [Heb 2:16] And again, “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?”[Heb 1:5] “For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?”[Heb 1:5] If he was God's son before the earth was created, please explain why he was “begotten this day referencing the day of his resurrection, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee” [Psalm 2:7]; And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” [Acts 13:28-33] “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.  6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;  8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; God is not a priest, nor are angels priests. God does not pray, men do. God does not shed tears, they are part of created man. How can a spirit cry? How can a spirit pray? “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.” [Heb 5:4-10] How can God be a high priest? And why would God be a priest after a man's order? Or why would an angel be a priest named afterr a man's order? So, if Jesus was not with God, beside God, before or after God, and  was not “other” with God; if Jesus was not an angel, all of whom are “ministering spirits” [Heb 1:14]. Angels were all created –  “Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.”[Psalm 148:1-5] You have El Jehovah creating heaven and earth alone (monos) “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou (monos) alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” [Isa 37:16 – Septuagint] “For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art (theos monos) God alone.” [Psa 86:10 Septuagint] For a wuick look at the application of “monos” in scripture, look to Jesus' own explanation found in John 16:32 -John 16:32 “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos (alone): and yet ouk eimi monos(I am not alone), because the Father is with me. Jesus himself as a man, testified that when the father is with him, he is “ouk eimi monos” (I am not alone). So when God says he “monos” created heaven and earth, where was Jesus? Response is usualoly given that Jesus was firstborn of all creation then created all else. (or words to that effect) The problem with tha tis, it is not what scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the creation in which Jesus took part was called “new creation.”  “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, gegonen kaina (all things are become new)” [II Cor 5:17] Even John tells it this way – John 1:3 “All things egeneto (were made) by him; and without him was not any thing egeneto (made) that gegonen (was made).” The original creation was made by God alone, the new became new in Christ. All of the scriptures dealing with Jesus being forstborn of all creation, have to do with the new creation, of whom he is both firstborn and firstbegotten from the dead. The resurrected saints are a completely new kind of creature, both created and made new. If folks would read the new testament from the front of the book, and in chronological order in which they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, they could not possibly get a pre-existent Jesus, nor a trinity for a God. Instead they begin at the back of the book (with John's gospel) and move backward to the front (James and Paul's writings. As for your lates post to me, you say “Let us go back to my questions” but you leave out the question we would have to “go back” to. It dealt with John 6:62 – John 6:62 What and if ye shall thewreete (see) the Son of man anabainonta [ascend] to where he was at the first?” [GNT] And where does scripture tell us Jesus was “at the first?” Well, it begins by telling us “that which is spiritual” was not first “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” Paul tells us that wich was made a life giving spirit was not first. So, if the Jesus who was made a life giving spirit was not first, what then was Jesus “at the first” of John 6:62? “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10] So, Mike, if you want to go “back to” your original questions, please explain to the readers, why you left out thie crucial information, which you know was my previous response to those questions of yours you want to go back to. Remember, the one where you wanted to assign the meaning found in the Greek “blepo” to John's question in 6:62? You keep insisting Jesus' remark was made in the middle of explaining how he came down from heaven. The truth is, the Jews were in the middle of asking Jesus for a sign from heaven, and he gave them the sign of Jonas, “three days and three nights in the belly of the earth” recorded in Mat 12:31-42, and in John 2:18-19. This cannot be ignored. Remember, when I showed you “Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye thewrew [see] me have.” Why are you now abandoning John 6:62 as your proof text? Could it be because it no longer serves to “prove” your position? Come on Mike, it should be obvious by now. John was trying to explain to those Jews how it can be said Jesus ascended up to heaven, because first he descended to the lowest parts of the earth; only then can he ascend to heaven. The Jews could not understand it  because they would not; not because they could not. “Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.” [Mat 13:13-17] Jesus had already told the Jewish crowd they would see the sign of Jonas ” Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” [Mat 12:39-40] Paul explains how he did first things first, followed by all else, in the record referenced above [Eph 4:8-10] and

Paladin………You are explaining it right brother, i have moved this forward again in the post order in hopes some will reread it and think about what you have posted , i appreciate all the effort you put into your posts brother.

May GOD Bless and Keep you and give you peace………………gene

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:57)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,17:13) Yes, you are right, some manuscripts have it one way, and others another, But even so, this states that the Son of man came down from heaven.  He wasn't the Son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, how are you going to explain this to support your doctrine of pre-existence? Hi Marty, First of all, he was the “Son of Man” ever since Daniel prophesied about him.  It is the title he chose to use to refer to himself more than any other title.  And like his Father did so often in the OT, the Son also refers to himself in the third person many times.  But you have to realize that when Jesus says “the Son of Man” did this, or will do that, it is Jesus saying, “I” did this or will do that. Jesus also says the Son of Man will come on the clouds in the future.  But Jesus was literally a son of mankind only through Mary, and that son died on the stake for our sins.  Jesus is now a powerful spirit at the right hand of God, and no longer a human being.  So how is it that he says the “Son of Man” will come on the clouds, when he is no longer a human being? Marty, why do you think Jesus chose the title “Son of Man” when his Father was God all along?  It was to show the people that he was the “son of man” in Daniel's prophecy.  Otherwise, saying he was a son of man wouldn't mean diddly because everyone he was talking to was also a son of man. And Jesus was this same prophesied about “son of man” even before he became flesh by being made in the likeness of a human being. mike

Hi Mike:

Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us.

And about Jesus not being the son of man now? When and how did that change, Mike?

This is what the scripture states:

Quote

1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The scripture also states that he is the last Adam, but he is still the son of man, but now he has a spiritual body, and he has life eternal. He is no longer a mortal man, but nevertheless he is still a man.

Mike, I cannot believe that I am hearing this from you. You say, “Jesus is no longer the son of man”. Why then did he say, “what if you see the son of man ascend where he was before”? But you are getting away from the point that was being made because he made that statement. He was not literally the son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, what did he mean by saying he would ascend where he was before?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 24 2011,19:46)

Remember we are told to seek and we will find Knock and it will be opened, ask and it will be given to us. “Let him who lacks wisdom and understanding Ask” . And also remember “THE (SUM) OF GOD'S WORD IS TRUTH”.

Hello Gene,

It's hard for you to ask for the truth when you apparently had it before you even opened a Bible. I really don't know what's so hard about it. If Jesus point blank says, “I came down from heaven”, and the Jews point blank say, “How can this dude we know all of a sudden say he came down from heaven”, then what's to question?

The Jews surely understood the words coming out of Jesus' mouth. You call him your Lord, so why don't you believe him when he says he came down from heaven?

mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:41)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57) how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted: “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” Love in Christ, Marty I don't know Marty.  Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes? mike

Hi Mike:

How is he in the Father? If you can understand what he is saying by this, perhaps you will understand how he was with the Father before the foundation of the world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Baker]

Marty!  What does this Scripture mean?  What does all the Scripture I gave you mean?  No one hath ascendec up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven.  Meaning that He is the lord from Heaven, another Scripture

Jhn 3:13   And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.  Jesus is called the Son of God, and the Son of man.  

You say this
He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time. That is not what it says. NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN BUT HE THAT CAME FROM HEAVEN, THE SON OF MAN WHICH IS IN HEAVEN…..tell me where is Jesus right now/  Is He not in Heaven seated at the right hand of Almighty God?  I know so….
But it says that NO MAN HAS ASCENDED TO HEAVEN< BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN
Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.  

So Jesus is lying when He said He came down from Heaven to do the will of Him that sent Him?   And Paul is lying too when He said the second Adam or man is the Lord from Heaven…..Is because some say that goes with the trinity?  It does not.   He is the firstborn of all creation.  He is the beginning of the creation of God. That all is a lie?  Lots of lies…..
do you even see how you ignore all those Scriptures, and give me a Scripture in return, rather to prove those Scriptures wrong that I gave yiou……I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe Jesus always existed.  Firstborn is a firstborn of all creation.  God is a Creator and He creates….

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Where did God Sent His Son from? Scripture says from Heaven….
Peace to you Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

Hi Mike: Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us.

Hi Marty,

I don't personally believe 3:15 to be a messianic prophecy, but I get your point.  And I understand what you claim with 1 Peter 1, but tell me this:  Does Jesus being manifest to us in these last days mean that he couldn't have already existed with glory alongside God before the creation of the world?  Not at all, right?  See what I've been saying?  You can post many scriptures that you say mean Jesus didn't pre-exist.  But those scriptures would mean the exact same thing whether he did or didn't, and so are not any kind of proof that he didn't.  Seriously Marty…………..tell me honestly how 1 Peter 1:20 says Jesus didn't exist before he was made manifest to us.  It doesn't, does it?

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

This is what the scripture states: 1 Timothy 2:5 (King James Version) 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

No, actually…………THIS is what the scripture states:
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people.
It is saying that the one who NOW mediates between us and God WAS once the man who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

Compare that scripture with Galatians 1:1, 11, 1 Cor 15:45, 50, and 2 Cor 3:17-18.  What we have is one scripture that could possibly be saying that Jesus is STILL a man, but doesn't necessarily say that.  And on the other hand, we have 6 scriptures that CLEARLY say he is now a spirit and cannot be a man, because men consist of flesh, and flesh cannot enter into heaven.  So I'll go with the understanding that 1 Timothy 2:5-6 is speaking about one who WAS the man who gave himself as a ransom……………..because that is the understanding that reconciles with the other six scriptures.

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

The scripture also states that he is the last Adam, but he is still the son of man, but now he has a spiritual body, and he has life eternal.

I agree 100% with that statement.

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

He is no longer a mortal man, but nevertheless he is still a man.

“Man” is the Greek word “anthropos”, which means “human being”.  We know that all human beings have flesh, and we know that flesh cannot enter heaven.  So I disagree with your understanding that Jesus is still a “man”.

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07)

Mike, I cannot believe that I am hearing this from you.  You say, “Jesus is no longer the son of man”.  Why then did he say, “what if you see the son of man ascend where he was before”?

You can't believe I said it………….because I didn't.    You have misunderstood me, Marty.  I don't claim that Jesus is no longer the “Son of Man”.  I claim that Jesus doesn't have to be a literal human being now in order to be the “Son of Man”, and therefore didn't have to be a literal human being born of Mary to be the “Son of Man” who came down from heaven.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:12)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:41) Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,16:57) how are you going to get around the other scripture that I quoted: “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” Love in Christ, Marty I don't know Marty.  Exactly what non-preexistent claim are you saying this scripture makes? mike Hi Mike: How is he in the Father?  If you can understand what he is saying by this, perhaps you will understand how he was with the Father before the foundation of the world. Love in Christ, Marty

Ahhh……………now I see what you're saying.  Hey – knowing is half the battle, right?  

Consider this Marty:  John 17:5 says Jesus had glory IN THE PRESENCE of God before the creation of the world.  You worded it “with”, and that's okay.  But you have to know there is a big difference between the Father being “in” Jesus doing the works by means of His Holy Spirit, and the PERSON Jesus saying he had glory ALONGSIDE God before the creation of the world.

Can you see the difference in those statements?  Now if Jesus had said, “Glorify me now in you with the glory I had in you before the creation of the world”, you might just have a point.  But he didn't, and therefore you don't.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Good work Irene.

mike

[terraricca]

Marty

you say;

Quote

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) Hi Mike: Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us.

the women from Gen 3 ;15 is this;Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
Rev 12:8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
Rev 12:11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
Rev 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.
Rev 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.
Rev 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.
Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea.

Pay attention to the 12 stars ,clothed with the sun,an crown on her head and the moon under her feet,then;She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

but see what happen;She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

think about it

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,13:59)

Good work Irene.   mike

Thank you Mike, so do you….just wish some would take those Scriptures the way they are written, and don't interpret the way they want them to look. I simple don't get it……Or maybe I do…. One day we all will know the truth. When our King of Kings and Lord of Lords return, only the truth will be taught…..
Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,08:36)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,15:12) He was in his ministry on earth and yet he was saying that he was in heaven at the same time. No he wasn't Marty.  Many mss don't even have the last line:  “Who is in heaven”.  And others have “who WAS in heaven” or “who is FROM heaven”.

Quote

Remember that the Greek language has an historical present tense, which many English translators render as a simple English past tense. So your “who IS in heaven” could just as faithfully be “who WAS in heaven”.  And “who WAS in heaven” is the translation that fits in with what Jesus had just said.

No! The Greek “historical present” is possible only in the indicative, and is used to describe a past event as though it is taking place. To have the availability does not mean every time you need one, just translate it from the indicative verb.

“They tell him of her” Mark 1:30 is an example of the Greek historical present. “tell” is Greek “legousin” which is present active, though John speaking of the event sixty years after the fact, and it being translated, would be better served as “They told him of her.”

But you cannot just apply this anywhere you need it to promote a doctrine. It does not apply to John 3:13 for the very reason you already expressed; i.e., “which is in heaven”
is not in the manuscripts.

If it was in the manuscripts, it still would not apply, because it is not talking about Jesus before or during his lifetime, but after his ascension, told by John, in 96 a.d., by which time he certainly is in heaven.

[Baker]

Paladin!  So every time it says which is in Heaven, it is not there in  the original transcript?  What about came down from Heaven?  

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

And John 3:13 first says

Jhn 3:13   And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.  

He ascended up to Heaven, No other man did, but he that came from Heaven….. the rest does not matter anyway…..I believe this shows that NO MAN ever ascended to Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven.  If that is in the original transcript the rest “which is in  Heaven' does not matter.  

Christians today believe that when they die they go either to Heaven or to Hell.  Another subject, but nobody has gone to Heaven excerpt Jesus who came down from Heaven.  And I believe that Scripture John is revealing that…..like John 6:38……

Mark 1:30 does make more sense like you said…..

Are you now done with me, because you have not aswered my post to you on page 99……or did you even read it…..

Peace and love Irene

….

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2011,11:57)

Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,17:13)

Yes, you are right, some manuscripts have it one way, and others another, But even so, this states that the Son of man came down from heaven. He wasn't the Son of man until he was born of the virgin Mary, and so, how are you going to explain this to support your doctrine of pre-existence? (Mike) Hi Marty, First of all, he was the “Son of Man” ever since Daniel prophesied about him.

Very Good Mike. Now tell us why you deny that very same application to the incarnate Christ? He was the seed of Abraham from the time God said ” As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. 6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. which according to Paul “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” [Gal 3:16]

You seem able to aply the same standard you deny to my posts.

[GeneBalthrop]

They simply do not want to believe it because it shakes their false foundation they have built all their hopes on, Paladin………Do you see how they discredit the truth of What you have brought out in the GREEK Language to support there assumptions. This is an example of “UNLESS THE LORD SHALL BUILD THE HOUSE THE WEARY BUILDER TOIL IN VAIN”. It is like beating your head against a brick wall brother, To whom it has been given will easily recieve it brother and there are some here who do understand and want more clarification of Scriptures and there true Geek to English meanings, and understand what you are putting forth, it helps better stabilize them through understanding these things, you are doing a good work here Paladin. I believe there is not bigger lie ever told them the Preexistence of Jesus as a live Being before his berth except its close association saying he was a GOD, neither of these are true Jesus was not a GOD, nor and Angel nor anything except a prophesied Human Being, before his berth on this earth. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………………………….gene

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ April 25 2011,15:00)

Marty you say; Quote Quote (942767 @ April 24 2011,20:07) Hi Mike: Jesus was the son of man from the beginning of creation by prophecy as Genesis 3:15 refers to him as the seed of the woman, but 1 Peter 1 indicates that he was foreordained and manifest in these last times for us. the women from Gen 3 ;15 is this;Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. Rev 12:6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. Rev 12:8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. Rev 12:11 They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” Rev 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. Rev 12:14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Rev 12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. Rev 12:16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev 13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. Pay attention to the 12 stars ,clothed with the sun,an crown on her head and the moon under her feet,then;She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. but see what happen;She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. think about it Pierre

Hi Pierre:

I am aware of all of these scriptures. Please show me what you want to understand by virtue of your posting them for me.

Thanks,
Marty

[Author]

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