Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[kerwin]

Quote (Paladin @ April 22 2011,13:47)

Quote (kerwin @ April 22 2011,16:12) To all that are concerned, I began a thread about Colossians 19:12-19  in  BELIEVERS PLACE » Scripture & Biblical Doctrine » Colossians 19:12-19 I may start other threads in regards to the other scriptures we have discussed here. Col 19

The last verse is 19. The chapter is 1. Sorry for the error. I was able and did correct it in my post and thread but not able to in the threads title. Thank you for letting me know.

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ April 22 2011,09:41)

Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,01:50) Paladin!  Whatever our disagreements were, I am willing to forget about it.  One thing I want to say in regards to that,  being 72 years old, I forget at times.  The only time I just close with Irene, I must have been upset with something.   I simple don't understand with now over 50 Scriptures, that do one way or another, show that Jesus did preexisted.  I ask you how old was Jesus when He was Baptized?  And how old was Jesus when He went to the Temple and taught, and all were amazed at His wisdom?   Would you agree to take one Scripture at the time, and debate with me in the debate tread.  Just you and I ?  That I would like to do….. Peace and Love Irene Only if you will begin at the beginning, and work to the back. I would begin with Gen 17:1, establish an understanding, or a reason for not agreeing; would move on to Exo 3:14 to establish another point of agreement; and begin to extablish principles of hermeneuical and exegetical practices, and establish rules, not from the standpoint of a rules list, but from what actually works between two persons having a discussion. For example, if you have no background in Hebrew or Greek, why would I bombard you with Hebrew and Greek information, other than the necessity of establishing an impossiblity that arises from the application of popular translations, that are in error? Another example would be to show how defending a translation can be hazardous to the truth. Read my next post to Mike for an example of arguing for a translation causing a wrong conclusion. I would not mind debating with you with George's agreement, because i will not get into a battle with another man's wife if he has no knowledge of what is transpiring. I have too  much respect for George than to let that happen. If my own wife got into a debate with someone online, I might see occasion to jump in on the defense, myself (assuming she would ever need it). But I am not interested in beginning in the new testament and arguing over issues not settled in the old testament. Nor in sarguing from the gospel of John, before establishing definitions already settled by the writings of Paul. Go with grace and hope dear sister.

Paladin!  Meditating and saying a prayer, I think I understand why you want to start in Genesis.  There are prophecies about Jesus.  Some might say that these contradict with Scriptures in the New Testament.  Knowing a member who lost faith in Jesus of the New Testament, and believing that Jesus is false got him in trouble, and lost His right to post in the believers section.  I asked Georg about that. Knowing how much He knows, I trust that He believes that there is no contradiction in Scriptures.  Therefore I find no merit in going into the O.T. Scriptures about prophecy of Jesus.  If you don't just want to debate with the Scriptures in the NT. then forget it.  I trust Georg, and I trust what Jesus did say……
Peace and Love Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ April 22 2011,20:38)

Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,01:50) I simple don't understand with now over 50 Scriptures, that do one way or another, show that Jesus did preexisted. I saw a man once try to establish the falsity of scripture by quoting two verses out of context,[Mat 27:3-5]Judas hanged himself; [Luke 10:37] “Go thou and do likewise”- advising everyone on the board to go hang thermselves, because in his mind, it was all a fake when you can make scripture say anything you want. I disagreed with him, and still do. anyone can read a verse or even a hundred verses, and come up with a doctrine that is not taught in scripture, yet scripture may well be the starting point.   And often people will disagree over the meaning of verses, and each will consider him/herself the one in the right, and the other simply not capable of understanding what is obvious to “me.” They could both be wrong, and never see it. Quote I ask you how old was Jesus when He was Baptized? 30 Quote  And how old was Jesus when He went to the Temple and taught, and all were amazed at His wisdom? 12

Paladin!

Mat 27:3 ¶ Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].

Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

These examples you gave, if someone would hang themselves because they take it out of context. But what does that have to do with for instance

Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

You believe when we point to verse 62 it too is taken out of context? I would agree with you, if that would be the only Scripture that talks about Jesus going where He was before, but it isn't.
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

We know Jesus is a Spirit being now, and that is what He was before the world was.

Peace and Love Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,22:02)

Quote (Paladin @ April 22 2011,20:38) Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,01:50) I simple don't understand with now over 50 Scriptures, that do one way or another, show that Jesus did preexisted. I saw a man once try to establish the falsity of scripture by quoting two verses out of context,[Mat 27:3-5]Judas hanged himself; [Luke 10:37] “Go thou and do likewise”- advising everyone on the board to go hang thermselves, because in his mind, it was all a fake when you can make scripture say anything you want. I disagreed with him, and still do. anyone can read a verse or even a hundred verses, and come up with a doctrine that is not taught in scripture, yet scripture may well be the starting point.   And often people will disagree over the meaning of verses, and each will consider him/herself the one in the right, and the other simply not capable of understanding what is obvious to “me.” They could both be wrong, and never see it. Quote I ask you how old was Jesus when He was Baptized? 30 Quote  And how old was Jesus when He went to the Temple and taught, and all were amazed at His wisdom? 12   Paladin!   Mat 27:3 ¶ Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,   Mat 27:4   Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What [is that] to us? see thou [to that].   Mat 27:5   And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.   Luk 10:37   And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. These examples you gave, if someone would hang themselves because they take it out of context.  But what does that have to do with for instance Jhn 6:61   When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?   Jhn 6:62   [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?   Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.   You believe when we point to verse 62 it too is taken out of context?  I would agree with you, if that would be the only Scripture that talks about Jesus going where He was before, but it isn't.   Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. We know Jesus is a Spirit being now, and that is what He was before the world was.   Peace and Love Irene

And then there's this:
“8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10]

Paul is speaking of the ascension of Jesus, after which he sent gifts to men; Paul tells us that before Jesus ascended he descended; only Paul does not reference a descent from heaven, which would be most plausable if it were factual; but Paul says he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth which is a reference to the grave.

I will not try to convince you of anything Irene, just pointing out to you how Paul understood this to mean. And he is talking about the ascension after the resurrection, which if it was a return to where he was before, paul would certainly have found a different way of wording this information. After all, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote it.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,22:02)

Paladin!  You believe when we point to verse 62 it too is taken out of context?  I would agree with you, if that would be the only Scripture that talks about Jesus going where He was before, but it isn't.   Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. We know Jesus is a Spirit being now, and that is what He was before the world was.

By that standard I was a pre-existing spiritual being,. because God made certain promises to me before the world was created;

1) God chose me before the foundation of the world; that does not make me a pre-existent spiritual being. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” [Eph 1:4]

2) If Jesus was pre-existent because of referenced glory
“before the world” then we who ar ein him, qualify for the same “pre-existent spirit” label. “For we are his workmanship,  created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” [Eph 2:10]

3) God saved us and called us with a Holy calling before the world was – “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” [II Tim 1:9]

4) God promised me eternal life before the world began – “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [Titus 1:2]
 
And then there's this:
“8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10]

Paul is speaking of the ascension of Jesus, after which he sent gifts to men; Paul tells us that before Jesus ascended he descended; only Paul does not reference a descent from heaven, which would be most plausable if it were factual; but Paul says he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth which is a reference to the grave.

I will not try to convince you of anything Irene, just pointing out to you how Paul understood this to mean. And he is talking about the ascension after the resurrection, which if it was a return to where he was before, paul would certainly have found a different way of wording this information. After all, he was inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote it.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 22 2011,21:36)

Paladin!  Meditating and saying a prayer, I think I understand why you want to start in Genesis.  There are prophecies about Jesus.  Some might say that these contradict with Scriptures in the New Testament.  Knowing a member who lost faith in Jesus of the New Testament, and believing that Jesus is false got him in trouble, and lost His right to post in the believers section.  I asked Georg about that. Knowing how much He knows, I trust that He believes that there is no contradiction in Scriptures.

To me it is not a matter of “contradictions” in scripture. There are only contradictions between scripture and doctrines.When that happens, doctrines have to yield every time. That is why folks who get their understanidng from the new testament will not go to the old testament for understanding. It is kinda like saying, “Don't confuse me with old testament scriptures, my mind is already made up from the new testament doctrines.”

And when those new testament “understanding” come from doctrines that are built upon the foundation of beginning at the back of the book, well, I can see where gaining understanding form the old testament first, would be confusing.

But you are still welcome, nay, invited, to participate on the thread.

Go with grace and hope.
Therefore I find no merit in going into the O.T. Scriptures about prophecy of Jesus.  If you don't just want to debate with the Scriptures in the NT. then forget it.  I trust Georg, and I trust what Jesus did say……
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ April 22 2011,22:47)

Peace and Love Irene[/quote] And then there's this: “8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men 9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.” [Eph 4:8-10] Paul is speaking of the ascension of Jesus, after which he sent gifts to men; Paul tells us that before Jesus ascended he descended; only Paul does not reference a descent from heaven, which would be most plausable if it were factual; but Paul says he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth which is a reference to the grave.

Paladin ………..100% right< Jesus descended into the (LOWER) part of earth, upon death and ascended to heaven after his resurrection and indeed he did give gifts to us. You have presented this correctly brother , IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ April 23 2011,00:18)

To me it is not a matter of “contradictions” in scripture. There are only contradictions between scripture and doctrines.When that happens, doctrines have to yield every time. That is why folks who get their understanidng from the new testament will not go to the old testament for understanding. It is kinda like saying, “Don't confuse me with old testament scriptures, my mind is already made up from the new testament doctrines.” And when those new testament “understanding” come from doctrines that are built upon the foundation of beginning at the back of the book, well, I can see where gaining understanding form the old testament first, would be confusing.

Paladin……..Correct many just ignore the Old Testament , but Jesus used it to prove His prophetic acknowledgment and it was found in the Old Testament and He used it to prove who he was to his disciples. Paul said the Berans were mot Noble the those in Thessalonica because the searched the Scriptures to see if what he was saying true or not. Now what scriptures were they searching? Was it not the OLD TESTAMENT ?, As you have said they start from the back of the book and try to work their way to the front of it, in fact they don't even try to work their way to the front, they simply ignore it completely. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Paladin……………………..gene

[Baker]

Paladin! We are predestined, many are called, but few chosen. (Romans 8) I have no problems with the Old Testament. In fact Proverbs 8 is one of my favorite Book. Isaiah another. I just don't want to get hung up with prophecy. I rather debate what Jesus said….. But with all three posts you made to me, you did not answer my question. Is Jesus a Spirit Being now?
Peace and love Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 23 2011,05:30)

Paladin!  We are predestined, many are called, but few chosen. (Romans 8) I have no problems with the Old Testament.  In fact Proverbs 8 is one of my favorite Book.  Isaiah another.  I just don't want to get hung up with prophecy.  I rather debate what Jesus said….. But with all three posts you made to me, you did not answer my question.  Is Jesus a Spirit Being now?   Peace and love Irene

Sorry 'bout that Dear Sister;

Jesus is not a spirit being. He is flesh and bone, with a spirit.

What did Jesus tell the disciples to “see?” “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. [Luke 24:39]

“The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” [Acts 1:1-11]

Grace and hope my friend.

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ April 23 2011,06:42)

Quote (Baker @ April 23 2011,05:30) Paladin!  We are predestined, many are called, but few chosen. (Romans 8) I have no problems with the Old Testament.  In fact Proverbs 8 is one of my favorite Book.  Isaiah another.  I just don't want to get hung up with prophecy.  I rather debate what Jesus said….. But with all three posts you made to me, you did not answer my question.  Is Jesus a Spirit Being now?   Peace and love Irene Sorry 'bout that Dear Sister; Jesus is not a spirit being. He is flesh and bone, with a spirit. What did Jesus tell the disciples to “see?”  “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. [Luke 24:39] “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.  5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” [Acts 1:1-11] Grace and hope my friend.

Paladin!  Thank you for your reply.  1Corinth. 15:45 says that He was made a quickening spirit….

1Cr 15:42   So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  

1Cr 15:43   It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  

1Cr 15:44   It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  

1Cr 15:45   And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.  

1Cr 15:46   Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  

1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  

It is clear to me that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.  I also believe when He was seen by many, he manifest Himself in order to show them that He rose from the death.  Some doubt that.  In the first few verses in 1 Corinth, 15 it shows that.
Jesus paid the prize He gave his body as a ransom for all.  

Mar 10:45   For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.  

1Ti 2:6   Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.  

Peace and Love Irene

[Istari]

Just as a point of minor discussion:

What does this verse say: “1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.”

In my discussion with Mikeboll I pointed out a style of language that preEmpts events such as Jesus being “The Begotten Son” before he was raised up.
This verse states that “The Second Man” IS “The LORD (my emphasis) FROM HEAVEN”

Well, we know that he WASN'T “THE LORD” before he came from Heaven so how is he “The Second MAN (Sinless) as Lord FROM HEAVEN”
It can only mean a Back referral as in “The firstime Thief was sentenced for the theft” – He wasn't a “Theif” …until… he was sentenced in the same way that Jesus wasn't the Lord from heaven until he returned to Heaven as Lord – Or, he wasn't Begotten as Son of God with Power …until…he was raised up from the dead…

I hope some of you can see the reverse language referral and help clear up some linguistic misunderstanding – Obviously – like seeing a few line strokes on a paper we can recognise a picture from it until someone points out that it is “a set of lines” so here we read the verse and not actually realise the reveres reference…until it's pointed out…
The correct syntax should be similar to “The first man was of the earth, the second man was a spirit from heaven – who is NOW Lord in Heaven'

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,10:48)

Just as a point of minor discussion: What does this verse say: “1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.” In my discussion with Mikeboll I pointed out a style of language that preEmpts events such as Jesus being “The Begotten Son” before he was raised up. This verse states that “The Second Man” IS “The LORD (my emphasis) FROM HEAVEN” Well, we know that he WASN'T “THE LORD” before he came from Heaven so how is he “The Second MAN (Sinless) as Lord FROM HEAVEN” It can only mean a Back referral as in “The firstime Thief was sentenced for the theft” – He wasn't a “Theif” …until… he was sentenced in the same way that Jesus wasn't the Lord from heaven until he returned to Heaven as Lord – Or, he wasn't Begotten as Son of God with Power …until…he was raised up from the dead… I hope some of you can see the reverse language referral and help clear up some linguistic misunderstanding – Obviously – like seeing a few line strokes on a paper we can recognise a picture from it until someone points out that it is “a set of lines” so here we read the verse and not actually realise the reveres reference…until it's pointed out… The correct syntax should be similar to “The first man was of the earth, the second man was a spirit from heaven – who is NOW Lord in Heaven'

Istari! There is a scripture besides this one that says Jesus came down from Heaven.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

If you read in that Chapter you will see that Jesus is saying that God sent Him, several times…

And I gave Keith the Scriptures that say, He is the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15 and Rev.. 3:14

Jesus existed long before He became Lord. So those Scriptures are right on the nose….

Do you know why the translators used Lord and LORD. In the footnotes of our Rye Study Bible it says, Lord and LORD was used because they were afraid to take Gods name in vain. Almighty Gods name is Jehovah or Yahweh in Hebrew. And of course Jesus before He came to earth was The Word of God and Yeshua….But i don't remember were I know that Jesus name is Yeshua. There is a member who knows about this more then I do. She hasn't posted for a long time….

Peace and Love Irene.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 23 2011,10:30)

Quote (Paladin @ April 23 2011,06:42)

Quote (Baker @ April 23 2011,05:30) Paladin! We are predestined, many are called, but few chosen. (Romans 8) I have no problems with the Old Testament. In fact Proverbs 8 is one of my favorite Book. Isaiah another. I just don't want to get hung up with prophecy. I rather debate what Jesus said….. But with all three posts you made to me, you did not answer my question. Is Jesus a Spirit Being now? Peace and love Irene Sorry 'bout that Dear Sister; Jesus is not a spirit being. He is flesh and bone, with a spirit. What did Jesus tell the disciples to “see?” “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. [Luke 24:39] “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” [Acts 1:1-11] Grace and hope my friend.

Paladin! Thank you for your reply. 1Corinth. 15:45 says that He was made a quickening spirit….

1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

It is clear to me that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. [/quote]

The blood of Christ was poured upon the ground at the cross.
“flesh and blood”
is not
“flesh and bone.”

There is no blood in heaven. The purpose of blod in the body is to carry life to the body. In heaven that is the function of the Spirit of God.

Jesus was made a life giving spirit, but nothing is said about the flesh and bone body being destroyed. Instead, we are told that our bodies will be clothed upon with immortality.

“For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.” [II Cor 5:1-4]

If the body is not in heaven, why is it resurrected?

Quote

I also believe when He was seen my many, he manifest Himself in order to show them that He rose from the death. Some doubt that. In the first few verses in 1 Corinth, 15 it shows that. Jesus paid the prize He gave his body as a ransom for all. Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Peace and Love Irene

There are a couple of verses that say “he gave his life as a ransom” or “for a ransom” – but there is no verse that says he gave his body for a ransom. His body is in heaven, at the right hand of God; and his spirit was made a life giving spirit.

And grace and hope.

[Paladin]

Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,10:48)

Just as a point of minor discussion: What does this verse say: “1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.” In my discussion with Mikeboll I pointed out a style of language that preEmpts events such as Jesus being “The Begotten Son” before he was raised up. This verse states that “The Second Man” IS “The LORD (my emphasis) FROM HEAVEN” Well, we know that he WASN'T “THE LORD” before he came from Heaven so how is he “The Second MAN (Sinless) as Lord FROM HEAVEN” It can only mean a Back referral as in “The firstime Thief was sentenced for the theft” – He wasn't a “Theif” …until… he was sentenced in the same way that Jesus wasn't the Lord from heaven until he returned to Heaven as Lord – Or, he wasn't Begotten as Son of God with Power …until…he was raised up from the dead… I hope some of you can see the reverse language referral and help clear up some linguistic misunderstanding – Obviously – like seeing a few line strokes on a paper we can recognise a picture from it until someone points out that it is “a set of lines” so here we read the verse and not actually realise the reveres reference…until it's pointed out… The correct syntax should be similar to “The first man was of the earth, the second man was a spirit from heaven – who is NOW Lord in Heaven'

How very astute, my friend. You have put it into those very words I have tried to articulate for a very long time.

That same part of scripture demonstrates Adam predated Jesus, but few believe it. That is why Adam is called “first” Adam; and Jesus is referenced as “second Adam.”

It also explains why Jesus is called “spirit;” he was MADE a quickening spirit, just as certainly as Adam was MADE a living soul. Nothing is said about he already was a quickening spirit, which as pre-existent with God he most certainly would have been.

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ April 23 2011,11:14)

Do you know why the translators used Lord and LORD.  In the footnotes of our Rye Study Bible it says, Lord and LORD was used because they were afraid to take Gods name in vain. Peace and Love Irene.

Scholars are always monkeying around with the scriptures to add fuel to their doctrines and creeds. It was scholars who added the chapter and verse system, and it was scholars who added most of the punctuation within verses, in order to establsih what was not established in the raw Greek grammar.

And sometimes, where a comma is placed, changes what a verse teaches, completely. And it makes enmity between brethren, as they choose up sides over something they are better off not dividing over; i.e., a proof text that does not prove.

Example – Rom 9:5

Argument is offered, that Rom 9:5 is a prooftext for the doctrine that Jesus is God because it says – “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, “WHO IS GOD OVER ALL, FOREVER PRAISED!” Rom 9:5

There is no punctuation in the Greek texts like the English translators offer; it is an innovation of the English language, (and others) that sentences are punctuated differently than the ancient Semitic languages, and the Greek.

The comma was not even invented in the days of the writing of the new testament. Every occurance of a comma in the new testament is supplied by the translator, or editor of the translation, who is simply offering you a perspective as to how to understand what is written there. The punctuation (comma) is not in the Greek.

The Greek text was written in one long sentence without spaces between words. For example –
Thegreeksentencewaswritteninonelongesentencewithoutspacebetweenwordsbuttherewaspunctuation
ofasortperiodsatthecompletionofathoughtandaslashbetweensentencestomarkanewparagraph-

Only on occasion was a space left between sentences, to mark new paragraphs, but it's use was inconsistant.

Another form of punctuation utilized by the Greeks was making the first letter of a new sentence larger than the others around it.

To the ancients, the paragraph was the most important form of punctuation. It was not until 458 that Euthalius developed an edition (means he edited it) of the Greek New Testament with Chapters.

Wescott and Hort “edited” the Greek text by inserting a Capitol letter at the beginning of “Important sentences, all others retaining small letters. This is an entirely arbitrary method which helps the reader or student understand, not the Greek text, but the Editor's interpretation of the text.

Tell me my friend, do you REALLY want Wescott and Hort telling you which sentences in the Greek New Testament are “important?” It is an inovation done by the editor. That means it is the editor's OPINION, and it is expressed with punctuation.

The oldest inscriptions and papyri show few signs of punctuation between sentences, or between clauses in a sentence, though punctuation by points does appear on some of the ancient inscriptions. The Artemisia papyrus occasionaly ends the sentence with the double point.

Aristophanies of Byzantium (260 b.c.) invented punctuation that was improved upon by the Alexandrian grammarians. As a rule, all the sentences, like the words, ran together without spaces, in one unbroken line.

Finally, three point-stops were brought into play, for the sentence. The top-point (a point at the top of the line) was a full stop. the Line-point (a point on the line) was equivalent to our semicolon. A middle-point (you guessed it, a point in the middle between the top-point and the line-point) was developed equivalent to our comma.

Later, the top-point became equal to our colon; the bottom-point became our full stop; the middle-point vanished. In the ninth century, the comma appeared, along with the queston mark. These were different from the stop-points, because while the stop-points were useful in knowing where to pause, and where to stop, commas and question marks effect the SENSE of the meaning of the sentence. It was the beginning of efditorialism, and interpretation in translation, by punctuation.

And it was NOT in the Greek text, until inserted 800 years too late to be authentic. We still cannot tell how much if any, use the New Testament writers made of punctuation. We do know they had no comma, exclamation point, dash, quotation marks, parenthesis. The comma became the most common division of the sentence. But it was NOT IN THE GREEK.

Please do not think a volume printed in the twentieth century, with colons, parenthesis, question marks, and commas, is Proof.

The RSV is not only a translation, it is an editorialization of what was meant. The Greek only supplies what is SAID. It is TESTIMONY. How the reader handles the testimony is what the editors are after. They are in effect, tampering with the jury, attempting to influence your understanding, to conclude a doctrine you could not possibly find without their aid by punctuation.

Example; “Stop the train. let me off.” is not equivalent to “Stop. The train let me off.”

Example: “Woman. Without her, man would be impossible to comprehend;” is not equivalent to “Woman without her man, would be impossible to comprehend.”

There is NO translation more appropriate than the original. I use the KJV not because I think it superior, but because I then only have to learn one set of corrections. I know where many of the errors are, and would only defeat my purpose in life were I to take on a new translation.

All translations are editorials. there are NO exceptions. Even when I attempt to understand the Greek, I must supply those punctuations that make the most sense TO ME, of the meaning inherent in the Greek. That is not a fault. The fault comes when someone insists that one editor is somehow superior to another editor, and insists one editor is somehow advantaged by virtue of scholarship.

Even A.T.Robertson, Author of “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament” recognizes –
[page 419] In general the words that go together that make sense, and the interpretation is sometimes left to the reader's insight.”

The apostles were unlearned and ignorant, fishermen, tax-collectors, carpenters, whatever. Not scholars. they wrote for ingorant non-scholars to understand. I qualify. I understand. I do not offer scholarly credentials to back up my postiion, because it is of no value. It simply does not MATTER to me, how much education or pedigree my opponent displays, whether his own, or quoting his “authorities.” It is of no virtue.

Consider Rom 9:5 with the punctuation properly placed;
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;  5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all God blessed, for ever. Amen.

This understanding is supported by several scriptures-
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;  8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.” [Psa 8:4-8]

1 Corinthians 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet.

Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet…

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all thi
ngs in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

I think the placement of the comma drastically changes the understanding of the passage, and I am convinced the translators think so too.

Grace and Hope to you.

[Baker]

Paladin! I don't have much time today. First I am getting my Hair cut, and then today we have Family Day. But I will answer your posts later tonight….Peace and Love Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ April 23 2011,18:06)

Quote (Istari @ April 23 2011,10:48) Just as a point of minor discussion: What does this verse say: “1Cr 15:47   The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.” In my discussion with Mikeboll I pointed out a style of language that preEmpts events such as Jesus being “The Begotten Son” before he was raised up. This verse states that “The Second Man” IS “The LORD (my emphasis) FROM HEAVEN” Well, we know that he WASN'T “THE LORD” before he came from Heaven so how is he “The Second MAN (Sinless) as Lord FROM HEAVEN” It can only mean a Back referral as in “The firstime Thief was sentenced for the theft” – He wasn't a “Theif” …until… he was sentenced in the same way that Jesus wasn't the Lord from heaven until he returned to Heaven as Lord – Or, he wasn't Begotten as Son of God with Power …until…he was raised up from the dead… I hope some of you can see the reverse language referral and help clear up some linguistic misunderstanding – Obviously – like seeing a few line strokes on a paper we can recognise a picture from it until someone points out that it is “a set of lines” so here we read the verse and not actually realise the reveres reference…until it's pointed out… The correct syntax should be similar to “The first man was of the earth, the second man was a spirit from heaven – who is NOW Lord in Heaven' How very astute, my friend. You have put it into those very words I have tried to articulate for a very long time. That same part of scripture demonstrates Adam predated Jesus, but few believe it. That is why Adam is called “first” Adam; and Jesus is referenced as “second Adam.” It also explains why Jesus is called “spirit;” he was MADE a quickening spirit, just as certainly as Adam was MADE a living soul. Nothing is said about he already was a quickening spirit, which as pre-existent with God he most certainly would have been.

Paladin!  Istari was not questioning about the quickened Spirit.  He was questioning about why Jesus was Lord from Heaven.. That is why I gave Him the Scripture in John.  I don't use the Scripture for prove the preexisting, it proves that He became a quickening Spirit when He rose from the dead.  1 Corinth 15 in general talks about the resurrection.  
As far as Lord and LORD is concerned, is that not Jesus Lord and Jehovah LORD? Throughout the Old Test. scriptures LORD is used for Jehovah God is it not?  And Lord for Jesus in the New Test. is it not?  Well I think so.  The rest of posts  you made later, got to go….Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin………..Have you ever considered that where is says “flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God” and where is say Neither does corruption inherit incorruption , that is relating to any type of physical existence. Let me explain what i am saying , flesh and blood is relating to a Physical or material existence, so it would be like saying no physical thing can inherit something that is spiritual, because it is not spiritual it is physical, it has no reasoning powers of it self. Jesus' body was flesh and blood when he walked this earth and he was in the kingdom of GOD i believe, because God existed and ruled (IN) him.

How i percieve this saying is that God's Spirit must come into us , (even if we are flesh and blood) in order for us to enter the kingdom of GOD even of it is Now in our present physical condition. “FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMES NOT WITH OBSERVATION, BUT IS WITHIN YOU”. Do you follow what i am saying? I believe it doesn't matter if we are flesh and blood or flesh and bone , still the kingdom of God must be withing a person, even if he still has a physical flesh and blood body or flesh and bone body.

Here is another point to consider , Adam was flesh and blood and could have had eternal life if God did not prevent Him from acquiring it by removing him from the tree (that which produces from self) of Life . He plainly said lest he put forth his hand and eat (take to himself) and never die. But even if the Adam would have never died it still would not mean he “inherited” the “kingdom of God”. Because the kingdom of GOD is not about Bodies of any kind but about the Spirit of GOD indwelling us , rather were are flesh and blood or flesh and bone makes no difference because the kingdom of GOD is a Spiritual Kingdom and must be with in us. So to say flesh and blood or flesh and bone can not (INHERIT) the kingdom of God is true because the Kingdom of GOD cannot be seen it is what us within you. You might say it (the kingdom of GOD) takes us into IT by coming into US. And that is how we inherit it no matter what kind of body we have. IMO

Do you see my point brother?

peace and love to you and yours Paladin………………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ April 21 2011,03:25)

Mike, I am rather confused whether you believe A, B, or something else: Quote A)That a preexistent being from the realms of spirit incarnated into a human body that was descended from David. B)That a preexistent being from the realm of spirit was transformed by God into a human being.

Hi Kerwin,

I believe that Jesus existed in the form of God, then emptied himself of this form and was made in the likeness of a human being.  I believe that Jesus is the main spokesperson for his God, has been ever since there was any other being to even relay God's words to, and so was “The Word of God” who became flesh.

This is what the scriptures teach us very clearly, but what exactly does it mean?

IMO, Jesus existed as a being from the realm of spirit, the first one because all others were created through him.  Then at God's appointed time, Jesus ceased to exist as a spirit at all and was born again as a human being.  I believe that even as a youngster, God was drawing him closer to his purpose, but he did not have the memories of who he had once been until the Holy Spirit alighted on him at his baptism.

I believe that at this time, the Holy Spirit restored the memories of his entire life in full.

So I guess “transformed by God into a human being” is as good a way to describe it as anything else.   After all, God later transformed him from a dead human being back into a spirit being with a glorious new body.

mike

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