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Quote (Paladin @ April 08 2011,16:04) Quote (Baker @ April 08 2011,09:58) [/quote]
Paladin! I talked to Georg who is very knowledgeable in Scriptures. I hope I can explain to you what Paul really means. First of all there is no contradiction. 1 Corinth. 15 talks about the resurrection.But dear sister, Jesus did not “become a man” in John 1:14. Do you see “Ieesous” anywhere in the verse? The only reason there is even a mention of Jesus at all in John's first chapter, is because John tied his gospel [96 a.d.] to the person of Christ in [69 a.d.] revelation 3:12 and in 19:12-13 with reference to the new name he is to be given, as “the logos of God.”
Jesus was not “the logos of God” in 30 a.d; He was not “The logos of God” in 33 a.d. when he was ascended. and he was not “the Logos of God” in 69 a.d., when John prophecies about his gift-name.
John is speaking in 1:14 about an event in the life of a personification, and recalling his remarks he wrote in 69 a.d, about Jesus, here ties the two events together. But the personification of the logos of God takes place, according to Paul, everytime some saint or other, so lives hi slife that he can say “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]
When this saint aknowledges “Christ Jesus” in his life, the logos of God is personified in the life of that saint. And “we behold the glory as of the only begotten son of God” all over again, in that saint, through Christ living in him.
And neither you nor George has yet explained how it is Adam predated Christ, other than to claim he pre-existed Abraham, and became flesh in John 1:14, which John does not say.
And to claim Christ pre-existent, AND incarnated, defies scripture; and denies everything Paul had to say about “Christ living in me” whichis the personification clearly referenced in John 1:14.
Paul spent a lifetime convincing the saints about this subject of “Jesus Christ living in me” and said, “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” [Gal 4:19]
Paul told the saints in Corinth [55 a.d.] “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” [II Cor 13:5]
And in 60 a.d, Paul explains about a mystery, now revealed, named “The Logos Of God” and what it is – ” If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the logos of God; 6 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” [Col 1:23-27]Now, dear sister, if you will follow the clues provided in the underlined and bolded words, you will see a pattern found only in Paul's preahcing, which later is picked up by John who explains Paul's understanding of “The Logos Of God” and ties it to Jesus, not at Jesus' birth, but to “Jesus Christ lives in you” and John explains why it is “the hope of Glory” excpressed by Paul, as John expresses in 1:14 “we beheld his glory, as of an only begotten son of God”
Do you know the reason John uses [&# 969;&# 962;] in 1:14? Why does John speak of “Glory AS OF…” instead of saying “We beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten son of God?” Because John is not speaking of Jesus, he is speaking of the saint in whom Jesus is dwelling, “and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten son of God” precisel;y because it is not Jesus of whom he speaks, but the saint in whom Jesus is dwelling in 96 a.d, when John is writing of the event.
Quote
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Right! In 96 a.d., John, the brother of Jesus, is writing about way back in 30 a.d, John the Baptist bore witness of the Christ, “the only begotten of the father”. He is not saying Jesus is the logos, he is saying the glory of one who has Christ living in him, shows the glory as of the only begotten of the father, of whom John bore witness.
John has John the baptist saying “this was he of whom I spake” rather than “this is he of whom I spake,” because John is speaking of a past event, not telling his gospel in the present.
John uses [&# 951;&# 957;] which is imperfect indicative, used twice in the verse; “this was he…” and “He was before me.
You really need to pay attention to the verbs dear sister. And I would appeal to George to learn this also, as he is teaching you, as well he should. This is why I did not prefer to post to you without George, because he might underswtand it differently if he sees it for himself, rather than getting it from you second hand. And this is not any kind of denouncement of either you or George, it is simply a fact of life. No one tells a fact nearly as well as one can read for one's self. It is much easier to appeal to George through the posting screen, than through another's eyes.
Quote We should also look at Rev. 19 that explains to us that The Word of God is the one that became Jesus. So many just don't want to believe it. Because that is not what happened dear sister.
My grandson, at birth, received a name; that name was
“Christian,” And he received the name “Christian” which was his name and still is, and when he was baptized into Christ, he received another name altogether, and that name was
“Christian,” because now, he belongs to Christ.“The word of God is the one who became Jesus” is wrong. Jesus received a name, “The logos of God” but it was not who and what he was; it was a name recieved. Just as my grandson “Christian” was not “a Christian” until he accepted, obeyed, and became “a Christian.” He was already “Christian” when he became “a Christian.”
Jesus was already a man ascended to God's right hand when he received a name “The Logos Of God.” He was already “Jesus” and was already dead and resurrected, when he received this name “The Logos Of God.”
Quote I have ask
ed so many times ir there is another being that fits that description.I know, dear sister, because I have responded so many times.
Quote Do you believe it is Jesus who will come again as The Word of God? When I see my Grandson,
am I looking at “Christian” or “a Christian?” Both are names, one given at his birth, the other given at his birth into Christ.Quote Also God, The Word of God are all titles….
With all these Scriptures, there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus Yeshua who was with His Father Almighty God before the world was.. ( John 17:5)Sorry Paladin, we're not on the same page. I hope that God shows us all the truth. I will again ask God for wisdom. BTW I did so before I explained to you 1 Corinth, 15, and I am certain that if I am wrong God will show me so……
Peace and Love IreneBut dear sister, that is what he sent me to the board to do, and you hang onto doctrines instead of truth. If you turn loose from doctrines and cling to Paul's own teaching, verified by John, you will see it. Watch for Paul's words “Christ living in you” throughout Paul's writings and try to explain them any other way. I will be waiting to hear from you.
Go in grace and in hope of glory as you allow “Christ Jesus to live in you,” so others can “behold his glory as of an only begotten son of God.”
Paladin! This is were you said to me that John 1:14 is not Jesus becoming flesh…..sorry I thought you said it was not in the lexi, which BTW it isn't…. but it is in the Greek.
I do believe that Jesus became flesh in verse 14. I believe it is Jesus in both scriptures in John 1 and Rev. 19…..
Peace and Love ireneQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2011,07:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,15:31) I am convinced that the can be more than one person or thing called The Word of God as after all my bible is The Word of God and yet it is not Jesus.
And what is your reason for thinking the Word who became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father is not the same Jesus who is the only begotten Son of the Father and the Word of God in Revelation?
I was pointing out that Just because the clause “Word of God” is speaking of Jesus does not mean it is in another.John expects his readers to know what he is speaking of and thus the passage has unwritten context. It therefore renders the passage of little use as a proof text.
The unwritten context that seems to fit is the Jewish belief that the Word of God rules the angels and the Spirit of God is that Word. It could also be as Marty states.
Quote (Baker @ April 11 2011,14:38) Quote (Paladin @ April 08 2011,16:04) Quote (Baker @ April 08 2011,09:58)
Paladin! I talked to Georg who is very knowledgeable in Scriptures. I hope I can explain to you what Paul really means. First of all there is no contradiction. 1 Corinth. 15 talks about the resurrection.But dear sister, Jesus did not “become a man” in John 1:14. Do you see “Ieesous” anywhere in the verse? The only reason there is even a mention of Jesus at all in John's first chapter, is because John tied his gospel [96 a.d.] to the person of Christ in [69 a.d.] revelation 3:12 and in 19:12-13 with reference to the new name he is to be given, as “the logos of God.”
Jesus was not “the logos of God” in 30 a.d; He was not “The logos of God” in 33 a.d. when he was ascended. and he was not “the Logos of God” in 69 a.d., when John prophecies about his gift-name.
John is speaking in 1:14 about an event in the life of a personification, and recalling his remarks he wrote in 69 a.d, about Jesus, here ties the two events together. But the personification of the logos of God takes place, according to Paul, everytime some saint or other, so lives hi slife that he can say “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]
When this saint aknowledges “Christ Jesus” in his life, the logos of God is personified in the life of that saint. And “we behold the glory as of the only begotten son of God” all over again, in that saint, through Christ living in him.
And neither you nor George has yet explained how it is Adam predated Christ, other than to claim he pre-existed Abraham, and became flesh in John 1:14, which John does not say.
And to claim Christ pre-existent, AND incarnated, defies scripture; and denies everything Paul had to say about “Christ living in me” whichis the personification clearly referenced in John 1:14.
Paul spent a lifetime convincing the saints about this subject of “Jesus Christ living in me” and said, “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” [Gal 4:19]
Paul told the saints in Corinth [55 a.d.] “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” [II Cor 13:5]
And in 60 a.d, Paul explains about a mystery, now revealed, named “The Logos Of God” and what it is – ” If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the logos of God; 6 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” [Col 1:23-27]Now, dear sister, if you will follow the clues provided in the underlined and bolded words, you will see a pattern found only in Paul's preahcing, which later is picked up by John who explains Paul's understanding of “The Logos Of God” and ties it to Jesus, not at Jesus' birth, but to “Jesus Christ lives in you” and John explains why it is “the hope of Glory” excpressed by Paul, as John expresses in 1:14 “we beheld his glory, as of an only begotten son of God”
Do you know the reason John uses [&# 969;&# 962;] in 1:14? Why does John speak of “Glory AS OF…” instead of saying “We beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten son of God?” Because John is not speaking of Jesus, he is speaking of the saint in whom Jesus is dwelling, “and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten son of God” precisel;y because it is not Jesus of whom he speaks, but the saint in whom Jesus is dwelling in 96 a.d, when John is writing of the event.
Quote
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Right! In 96 a.d., John, the brother of Jesus, is writing about way back in 30 a.d, John the Baptist bore witness of the Christ, “the only begotten of the father”. He is not saying Jesus is the logos, he is saying the glory of one who has Christ living in him, shows the glory as of the only begotten of the father, of whom John bore witness.
John has John the baptist saying “this was he of whom I spake” rather than “this is he of whom I spake,” because John is speaking of a past event, not telling his gospel in the present.
John uses [&# 951;&# 957;] which is imperfect indicative, used twice in the verse; “this was he…” and “He was before me.
You really need to pay attention to the verbs dear sister. And I would appeal to George to learn this also, as he is teaching you, as well he should. This is why I did not prefer to post to you without George, because he might underswtand it differently if he sees it for himself, rather than getting it from you second hand. And this is not any kind of denouncement of either you or George, it is simply a fact of life. No one tells a fact nearly as well as one can read for one's self. It is much easier to appeal to George through the posting screen, than through another's eyes.
Quote We should also look at Rev. 19 that explains to us that The Word of God is the one that became Jesus. So many just don't want to believe it. Because that is not what happened dear sister.
My grandson, at birth, received a name; that name was
“Christian,” And he received the name “Christian” which was his name and still is, and when he was baptized into Christ, he received another name altogether, and that name was
“Christian,” because now, he belongs to Christ.“The word of God is the one who became Jesus” is wrong. Jesus received a name, “The logos of God” but it was not who and what he was; it was a name recieved. Just as my grandson “Christian” was not “a Christian” until he accepted, obeyed, and became “a Christian.” He was already “Christian” when he became “a Christian.”
Jesus was already a man ascended to God's right hand when he received a name “The Logos Of God.” He was already “Jesus” and wa
s already dead and resurrected, when he received this name “The Logos Of God.”Quote I have asked so many times ir there is another being that fits that description. I know, dear sister, because I have responded so many times.
Quote Do you believe it is Jesus who will come again as The Word of God? When I see my Grandson,
am I looking at “Christian” or “a Christian?” Both are names, one given at his birth, the other given at his birth into Christ.Quote Also God, The Word of God are all titles….
With all these Scriptures, there is no doubt in my mind that Jesus Yeshua who was with His Father Almighty God before the world was.. ( John 17:5)Sorry Paladin, we're not on the same page. I hope that God shows us all the truth. I will again ask God for wisdom. BTW I did so before I explained to you 1 Corinth, 15, and I am certain that if I am wrong God will show me so……
Peace and Love IreneBut dear sister, that is what he sent me to the board to do, and you hang onto doctrines instead of truth. If you turn loose from doctrines and cling to Paul's own teaching, verified by John, you will see it. Watch for Paul's words “Christ living in you” throughout Paul's writings and try to explain them any other way. I will be waiting to hear from you.
Go in grace and in hope of glory as you allow “Christ Jesus to live in you,” so others can “behold his glory as of an only begotten son of God.”[/quote]
Paladin! This is were you said to me that John 1:14 is not Jesus becoming flesh…..sorry I thought you said it was not in the lexi, which BTW it isn't…. but it is in the Greek.
I do believe that Jesus became flesh in verse 14. I believe it is Jesus in both scriptures in John 1 and Rev. 19…..
Peace and Love irene
Dear sister;I am working on a response to that issue.
Thanks for your patience.
Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2011,20:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2011,07:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,15:31) I am convinced that the can be more than one person or thing called The Word of God as after all my bible is The Word of God and yet it is not Jesus.
And what is your reason for thinking the Word who became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father is not the same Jesus who is the only begotten Son of the Father and the Word of God in Revelation?
I was pointing out that Just because the clause “Word of God” is speaking of Jesus does not mean it is in another.John expects his readers to know what he is speaking of and thus the passage has unwritten context. It therefore renders the passage of little use as a proof text.
The unwritten context that seems to fit is the Jewish belief that the Word of God rules the angels and the Spirit of God is that Word. It could also be as Marty states.
Hello Kerwin;The correct application to “Word (of God)” as found in John 1:1 &14 and Col 1:25 and Rev 19:13
is λογος (pronounced logos).“In the beginning was the λογος , and the λογος was with God, and the λογος was God.” [John 1:1]
“And the λογος was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”[John 1:14]
“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the λογος of God;” [Col 1:25]
“And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The λογος of God.”[Rev 19:13]
The correct application of “word (of God) as found in Eph 6:17 is [ρεμα] (pronounced reema)
“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the [ρεμα] of God:”[Eph 6:17]
Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother.
peace and love…………………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,01:13) Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene
If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema.Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2011,20:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2011,07:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,15:31) I am convinced that the can be more than one person or thing called The Word of God as after all my bible is The Word of God and yet it is not Jesus.
And what is your reason for thinking the Word who became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father is not the same Jesus who is the only begotten Son of the Father and the Word of God in Revelation?
I was pointing out that Just because the clause “Word of God” is speaking of Jesus does not mean it is in another.John expects his readers to know what he is speaking of and thus the passage has unwritten context. It therefore renders the passage of little use as a proof text.
The unwritten context that seems to fit is the Jewish belief that the Word of God rules the angels and the Spirit of God is that Word. It could also be as Marty states.
kerwin! Listen to what John is sayingJhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was God, and is with God. God is a title, that takes nothing away from Almighty God who is above all.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
The same Word was with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
All things through Jesus were created. This verse says it and this does next…
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
These two verses should really come after verse 14
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Read the verse, the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. There should be no doubt in any of our minds who John is talking about.
Then John tells us what Jesus said in
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
If you read on in John there is several times that it says ” who send me.”
I think John expects us to see the truth, and not add or take away from that truth. When Jesus said “I came down from Heaven”, we should believe so. If we don't, don't we then call Jesus a liar?
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I believe the reason John called Jesus The Word of God is because He was the Spoken Word of God, who became flesh. Throughout the Old testament it is the Spokesman of God. I also believe ( can't prove that) that the us and our is Almighty God and The Word of God who became Jesus….
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Some want to believe that is talking about the New creation, I believe that is this verse
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
I believe that this is the New Creation, cause it had to be after the resurrection of Jesus……
These Scriptures in Col. go well with those in John it also says that through Jesus all was made
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
We can believe these Scriptures or we can reason them away, by our view. I believe the way they are written….
Peace and love Irene
Quote (Paladin @ April 12 2011,02:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,01:13) Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene
If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema.
Paladin……….So Reema is the written word and Logos is the thoughts behind the word, is this right. Another words when Jesus said “the WORDS (LOGOS) i am telling is Spirit (that is Logos)” which is the (Intellect) driving the words, and reema is the expressions of those words rather written or uttered. Is this right brother?peace and love…………………………………..gene
Hi Gene,
Right now I am applying Logos and Reema in other ways to build logical foundation. Like a table is a concept or Logos. The words/reema I use to define or clarify what a table is.
This concept of a table I have is defined by having a flat 3 dimensional top and 3 dimensional legs to support it. One sub-set of table is one that has 3 legs. Another sub-set is one that has 4 legs. In my mind at this point the relationship between Logos and reema is quite similar to object-oriented programming data-stucture methods and relational data-base methodology. The more sub-sets generated that have internal logic that is consistent with basic definition of the Logos the more well-defined and more clarified the mental image/Logos is to a reader or hearer of these reema/words.
Gene this is where I am at on the learning curve with respect to usage of Logos and reema. From what Paladin is communicating, I find concepts from information science to be quite similar.With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (Wispring @ April 12 2011,07:13) Hi Gene,
Right now I am applying Logos and Reema in other ways to build logical foundation. Like a table is a concept or Logos. The words/reema I use to define or clarify what a table is.
This concept of a table I have is defined by having a flat 3 dimensional top and 3 dimensional legs to support it. One sub-set of table is one that has 3 legs. Another sub-set is one that has 4 legs. In my mind at this point the relationship between Logos and reema is quite similar to object-oriented programming data-stucture methods and relational data-base methodology. The more sub-sets generated that have internal logic that is consistent with basic definition of the Logos the more well-defined and more clarified the mental image/Logos is to a reader or hearer of these reema/words.
Gene this is where I am at on the learning curve with respect to usage of Logos and reema. From what Paladin is communicating, I find concepts from information science to be quite similar.With Love and Respect,
Wispring
Very Good!And Very Appropo of the meaning.
Quote (kerwin @ April 11 2011,03:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2011,07:27) Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2011,15:31) I am convinced that the can be more than one person or thing called The Word of God as after all my bible is The Word of God and yet it is not Jesus.
And what is your reason for thinking the Word who became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father is not the same Jesus who is the only begotten Son of the Father and the Word of God in Revelation?
I was pointing out that Just because the clause “Word of God” is speaking of Jesus does not mean it is in another.John expects his readers to know what he is speaking of and thus the passage has unwritten context. It therefore renders the passage of little use as a proof text.
The unwritten context that seems to fit is the Jewish belief that the Word of God rules the angels and the Spirit of God is that Word. It could also be as Marty states.
Okay Kerwin,1. Do you have scriptural support for the “Word of God” being the “Spirit of God”?
2. What era was the Jewish belief you mentioned instituted? Was it after the Messiah they would not recognize came?
3. Why are you willing to accept every possibility under the sun EXCEPT for the possibility that the “Word of God” in Revelation was the same “Word” that became flesh in 1:14? In other words, what FLAW do you even find with our understanding that the Word in 1:14 was the same Jesus who was the Word in Rev?
mike
Kerwin,
Also, Hebrews 4:12 says the “Word of God is living”
Therefore to state that the bible is the exact word of God would be an error.
So i would have to agree with mike on this onemY two cents
Quote (Paladin @ April 11 2011,09:13) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 12 2011,01:13) Paladin……….Is Logos the expression of God, while Reema the force behind the words or Logos. Am i getting this right brother. peace and love…………………………………gene
If I think of something, it is logos; if I write it down it is reema.
Hi All,From NETNotes:
logos:
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maximrhema:
1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing
spoken, word
1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
1b) speech, discourse
1b1) what one has said
1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a
declaration of one's mind made in words)
1c1) an utterance
1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
1c2a) concerning some occurrenceNow we all have the correct info to work from.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2011,02:12) Hey Marty, Gene and Paladin, Is it your contention that the Word of God proceeds directly from God to each of us who accept it, and it then works at forming us into something that is closer to the image of God Himself? Is it your contention that this Word of God, which is not a sentient being, can come into us the same way it came into Jesus?
Or am I understanding you wrong?
mike
Hi Mike:The Word of God has come to humanity through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is written on the pages that we call the bible.
God leads us by His Holy Spirit into all truths in that which has been written, and God forms our spirit through that written Word as we learn to apply it in our daily lives.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Paladin @ April 11 2011,17:55) Quote (Wispring @ April 12 2011,07:13) Hi Gene,
Right now I am applying Logos and Reema in other ways to build logical foundation. Like a table is a concept or Logos. The words/reema I use to define or clarify what a table is.
This concept of a table I have is defined by having a flat 3 dimensional top and 3 dimensional legs to support it. One sub-set of table is one that has 3 legs. Another sub-set is one that has 4 legs. In my mind at this point the relationship between Logos and reema is quite similar to object-oriented programming data-stucture methods and relational data-base methodology. The more sub-sets generated that have internal logic that is consistent with basic definition of the Logos the more well-defined and more clarified the mental image/Logos is to a reader or hearer of these reema/words.
Gene this is where I am at on the learning curve with respect to usage of Logos and reema. From what Paladin is communicating, I find concepts from information science to be quite similar.With Love and Respect,
Wispring
Very Good!And Very Appropo of the meaning.
Hi All,I believe some of you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. You seem to be trying to distinguish “logos” as having some significantly differing meaning than “rhema”. But before you all go too far, consider this verse, which uses “logos”, not “rhema”:
1 Corinthians 2:4
My conversation and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power,The word “logos” can simply mean spoken words, just as the word “rhema” can. The words are interchangeable in most cases, from what I can tell, having just BRIEFLY looked into it. The word “logos” doesn't necessarily imply “God-sent” or “thoughts”, although it could be used for either, depending on the context. But it is the context that decides, not the word “logos” or “rhema” itself.
mike
I want to pose to all of you (Gene, Paladin, Wispring, Marty) the question I've just asked Kerwin:
Why are you willing to accept every possibility under the sun EXCEPT for the possibility that the “Word of God” in Revelation was the same “Word” that became flesh in 1:14? In other words, what FLAW do you even find with our understanding that the Word in 1:14 was the same Jesus who was the Word in Rev?
Can anyone show me any SCRIPTURAL flaw in our understanding?
mike
Quote (942767 @ April 11 2011,19:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2011,02:12) Hey Marty, Gene and Paladin, Is it your contention that the Word of God proceeds directly from God to each of us who accept it, and it then works at forming us into something that is closer to the image of God Himself? Is it your contention that this Word of God, which is not a sentient being, can come into us the same way it came into Jesus?
Or am I understanding you wrong?
mike
Hi Mike:The Word of God has come to humanity through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is written on the pages that we call the bible.
God leads us by His Holy Spirit into all truths in that which has been written, and God forms our spirit through that written Word as we learn to apply it in our daily lives.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,So before Jesus, no Word of God came to us?
Please answer the bolded question at the end of my previous post.
peace,
mikeHi Numbers,
Marty,
Than again the Scriptures literally state that the word was “made flesh”That now we KNOW HIM, and he dwelled amoung men.
This is talking about an individual and not a situation where the word of God came to men.
God talks about knowing him, not by what is exactly written.
Jesus said they search the scriptures for eternal life, yet the scriptuers speak of HIM.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 11 2011,19:12)
Than again the Scriptures literally state that the word was “made flesh”That now we KNOW HIM, and he dwelled amoung men.
Add to that the fact that this “Word” had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ April 11 2011,19:12)
Jesus said they search the scriptures for eternal life, yet the scriptuers speak of HIM.
Bravo, young padawan.mike
Great job, Mike and SF, will they ever get it….To me its so simple, and I just can't understand how Kerwin will agree that Rev. 19 is Jesus, but not John 1:1……
Peace and love irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2011,12:02) Quote (942767 @ April 11 2011,19:01) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 11 2011,02:12) Hey Marty, Gene and Paladin, Is it your contention that the Word of God proceeds directly from God to each of us who accept it, and it then works at forming us into something that is closer to the image of God Himself? Is it your contention that this Word of God, which is not a sentient being, can come into us the same way it came into Jesus?
Or am I understanding you wrong?
mike
Hi Mike:The Word of God has come to humanity through Jesus Christ our Lord. It is written on the pages that we call the bible.
God leads us by His Holy Spirit into all truths in that which has been written, and God forms our spirit through that written Word as we learn to apply it in our daily lives.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi Marty,So before Jesus, no Word of God came to us?
Please answer the bolded question at the end of my previous post.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike:Did I say that no Word came to us from God before God spoke to us through Jesus?
But we who are born again, fulfill the law through that Word of God the spirit of Christ. And so, I was speaking of the Word of God through which our spirit is being formed.
You have already given the definition of Logos, and in John 14 the Logos became flesh, and so using that definition, please tell me what that means.
In Revelation 19 the scripture states that “his name” is called the Word of God. This speaks of his authority as the head of the church who watches over the Word that God spoke to humanity through him and that he obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross to perform it. The scripture does not state that “he is the Word of God”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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