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Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 31 2011,04:17) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,03:13) Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. When you take verse 57 makes it clear, when the Jews asked Jesus. I know that I am is somewhat vague, but because of verse 57 I can understand it…..
Our German Bible explains it better, and it says that Jesus was before Abraham…Therefore I believe what Scriptures teach me.It's o.k. dear sister, for you to cling to your beliefs until someone completely convinces you otherwise.
You say you don't play favorites, but suppose I can show you that you do? Perhaps you don't but I trust you to tell me if I am telling it true.
You say you believe Jesus was before Abraham because scriptures teach you that it is so.
Look at what Paul says – “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Jesus), but that which is natural (Adam); and afterward that which is spiritual.” Paul says Adam was before Jesus.
Now, do you believe what the scripture says about this? Or am I right, that you do not?
Grace and hope to you
You don't believe Jesus was before Abraham, but Scripture does say that. Again and again you have reasoned it away, because you can't see. 1 Corinth. speaks of after Jesus became a man. It talks about the resurrection and has no barring on all other Scriptures. That say Jesus came from Heaven to do the Fathers will. That His Father send Him. And that He had a glory with His Father, and more. That is a lot of Scriptures that you guys have to deny to your view. Take care I am finally done with you….I should have listened to my Husband many moons ago….
Peace and love IreneQuote (Paladin @ Mar. 30 2011,01:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,11:57)
Hi Paladin,I don't have time for this.
O.K. Come back when you have time to be nice.
But then you actually addressed two of my other posts, one of which wasn't even addressed to you! Did I stump you with the post you avoided? 
What I don't have time for is people avoiding answering the clear questions I've posed. I had already posted the LXX version of Psalm 138:2, and you failed to respond. Then I posed it as a question, so you could look it up and see for yourself, and you failed to comment. And that's when I said “I don't have time for this”, and just reposted it again myself.
Paladin, does the LXX version of Psalm 138:2 say that Jehovah magnified His word above every name, or not?
You are the one saying the LXX was another “revelation of God” given for the Gentiles or whatever. So if God gave a revelation that His Word would be magnified above every name, wouldn't that fit right in with Phil 2:9 and Eph 1:21?
Of course it would, and does. But I want to start very slow and basic with you, because you are very good at hiding your non-answers to my questions within the midst of many Greek words and scriptures that don't really address the issues we're discussing.
I have no more to say on the “incarnation” issue, for it is clear to me, that in order to keep Jesus from pre-existing, you are willing to believe that a man becomes “incarnated” the minute he is prophesied about, and actually EXISTS from that moment on. You are welcome to this view that os unsupported by scripture, and I'll retain the right to just roll my eyes when I read where you've posted something to that effect. Fair enough?
But I want to delve into this “Word of God” thing with you. I want to take it slow, and keep it simple. So dismiss everything I've posted above (except for the answer to the bolded question about the LXX translation of Psalm 138:2), and pretend my post starts right here:
Hitherto, while there were strangers in the room, he had spoken to us by an officer called Kal Hatzè, the voice or word of the king. . . .
On cases of treason, he sits within his balcony, and speaks through a hole in the side of it, to an officer called Kal Hatzè, “the voice or word of the king,” by whom he sends his questions, or any thing else that occurs, to the judges, who are seated at the council-table.
Those were excerpts from Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile in 1768, 1769, 1770, 1771, 1772 and 1773, by author and historian James Bruce.
Paladin, my question to you is very simple. If the King of Abyssina (described above) has a spokesman called “The Word of the King”, is it possible that God has a Spokesman called “The Word of God”? YES or NO?
mike
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,09:46) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 31 2011,04:17) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,03:13) Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. When you take verse 57 makes it clear, when the Jews asked Jesus. I know that I am is somewhat vague, but because of verse 57 I can understand it…..
Our German Bible explains it better, and it says that Jesus was before Abraham…Therefore I believe what Scriptures teach me.It's o.k. dear sister, for you to cling to your beliefs until someone completely convinces you otherwise.
You say you don't play favorites, but suppose I can show you that you do? Perhaps you don't but I trust you to tell me if I am telling it true.
You say you believe Jesus was before Abraham because scriptures teach you that it is so.
Look at what Paul says – “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Jesus), but that which is natural (Adam); and afterward that which is spiritual.” Paul says Adam was before Jesus.
Now, do you believe what the scripture says about this? Or am I right, that you do not?
Grace and hope to you
You don't believe Jesus was before Abraham, but Scripture does say that. Again and again you have reasoned it away, because you can't see. 1 Corinth. speaks of after Jesus became a man. It talks about the resurrection and has no barring on all other Scriptures. That say Jesus came from Heaven to do the Fathers will. That His Father send Him. And that He had a glory with His Father, and more. That is a lot of Scriptures that you guys have to deny to your view. Take care I am finally done with you….I should have listened to my Husband many moons ago….
Peace and love Irene
I'll take that response as agreement with my assertion, you don't believe all the scriptures.As for my belief Jesus was before Abraham, you keep telling me I don;t believe it, when I have explained to you several times now, i do believe it. He was in prophecy before Abraham existed.
Now, you tell me how Adam preceded Christ.
Paladin.
The soul is incarnate in the flesh but the soul is only part of the spiritual side of a human being.
So according to your understanding Trinitarians believe that Jesus is a human fleshly part with God spiritual part making him a half man and half God.
Does that mean they do not believe he has a human spiritual part?
If so it is an interesting hypothosis but Jesus would certainly not be 100% man.
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,16:46) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 31 2011,04:17) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,03:13) Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. When you take verse 57 makes it clear, when the Jews asked Jesus. I know that I am is somewhat vague, but because of verse 57 I can understand it…..
Our German Bible explains it better, and it says that Jesus was before Abraham…Therefore I believe what Scriptures teach me.It's o.k. dear sister, for you to cling to your beliefs until someone completely convinces you otherwise.
You say you don't play favorites, but suppose I can show you that you do? Perhaps you don't but I trust you to tell me if I am telling it true.
You say you believe Jesus was before Abraham because scriptures teach you that it is so.
Look at what Paul says – “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Jesus), but that which is natural (Adam); and afterward that which is spiritual.” Paul says Adam was before Jesus.
Now, do you believe what the scripture says about this? Or am I right, that you do not?
Grace and hope to you
You don't believe Jesus was before Abraham, but Scripture does say that. Again and again you have reasoned it away, because you can't see. 1 Corinth. speaks of after Jesus became a man. It talks about the resurrection and has no barring on all other Scriptures. That say Jesus came from Heaven to do the Fathers will. That His Father send Him. And that He had a glory with His Father, and more. That is a lot of Scriptures that you guys have to deny to your view. Take care I am finally done with you….I should have listened to my Husband many moons ago….
Peace and love Irene
PaladinJN 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
JN 6:42 They were saying, “ Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘ I have come down out of heaven’?”what did it mean wen he says ;I have come down out of heaven
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 30 2011,22:49) Gene said: Quote God's Word always existed with GOD and never died brother.
But death does not mean “to cease to exist.” Jesus likened His death and resurrection to Jonah's being in the belly of the whale. Er uh…Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE dude!As Jonah was 'dead' to the outside world but ALIVE in sheol, so Jesus was 'dead' to this world but ALIVE in sheol.
Then what happened to Jesus' human spiritual side if God's spiritual side was residing in the Grave?God is everywhere so he does reside in the Grave normally.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2011,05:01) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 30 2011,22:49) Gene said: Quote God's Word always existed with GOD and never died brother.
But death does not mean “to cease to exist.” Jesus likened His death and resurrection to Jonah's being in the belly of the whale. Er uh…Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE dude!As Jonah was 'dead' to the outside world but ALIVE in sheol, so Jesus was 'dead' to this world but ALIVE in sheol.
Then what happened to Jesus' human spiritual side if God's spiritual side was residing in the Grave?God is everywhere so he does reside in the Grave normally.
Jesus spiritual side is the Spirit of Christ which is the Spirit of God that also dwells in every believer.Jesus is the “Eternal Life” or Spirit that we all drink of.
WJ
To all posters on the thread – Can we take a break here, to recoup our souls?
I perceive there is a certain modicum of hostility rearing its head, mostly because of doctrinal differences, which should not have the power we give it.
I am working on my responses to several posters, so bear with me for a little time.
This is mostly a challenge to all of us to overcome our natural tendencies to defend, sometimes a little too personally, our beliefs. I think we should be willing to lay down our life for our belief, but not online with each other. We need to all of us remember we are communicating with the image of God.
And if we do not see the image of God in our adversary, how can we find him in the mirror?
I hold myself responsible for as much of the problem as I perceive others share, because I have not made a greater effort for it to not develope as it has.
Please, let us forgive, regroup, and post with our best effort, and let the hostilities lay dormant.
I will not call out any by name, but ask any who feel they have been maligned or mistreated, have mercy upon us all as we give mercy to you. And please, don't leave the thread, but join in with your best effort.
Grace and Hope to all from my house to your house
Quote (Paladin @ April 01 2011,07:06) To all posters on the thread – Can we take a break here, to recoup our souls? I perceive there is a certain modicum of hostility rearing its head, mostly because of doctrinal differences, which should not have the power we give it.
I am working on my responses to several posters, so bear with me for a little time.
This is mostly a challenge to all of us to overcome our natural tendencies to defend, sometimes a little too personally, our beliefs. I think we should be willing to lay down our life for our belief, but not online with each other. We need to all of us remember we are communicating with the image of God.
And if we do not see the image of God in our adversary, how can we find him in the mirror?
I hold myself responsible for as much of the problem as I perceive others share, because I have not made a greater effort for it to not develope as it has.
Please, let us forgive, regroup, and post with our best effort, and let the hostilities lay dormant.
I will not call out any by name, but ask any who feel they have been maligned or mistreated, have mercy upon us all as we give mercy to you. And please, don't leave the thread, but join in with your best effort.
Grace and Hope to all from my house to your house
Paladin! At first I thought I would wait and see if some other member would say something. When we joined Heaven Net, I came here for fellowship. I had to learn, that with all the different believes, that there is frustration, and some times even anger. You will not get away from that here. Is it right, No. Is it easy to handle, no. I also learned, that you can't prove to another anything. If God does not open your eyes, you will simply not understand. You can lead someone to the water, but you cannot make Him drink it. But in general most members are nice. We all grow at different stages. Waiting on God is hard to do….That said, I wish all would come to the truth, will it happen now? I don't think so. But one day we all will know the truth. To that day I am forever looking forward to….
With Christian Love and Peace IreneQuote (Paladin @ Mar. 31 2011,14:06) This is mostly a challenge to all of us to overcome our natural tendencies to defend, sometimes a little too personally, our beliefs.
Agreed. And may all of you except for Gene please accept my apologies for “defending my beliefs too personally”. JUST KIDDING, GENE. I especially apologize to you. mike
Woah! Is this an expression of a dose of the Holy Spirit manifesting in this thread? A little understanding, a little love, a little compassion, a little mercy? I sure like to believe it is. May all of Jesus Christ dwell in your heart and mind. May all of God's love be made manifest in your life. God willing.
With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (Wispring @ April 01 2011,14:42) Woah! Is this an expression of a dose of the Holy Spirit manifesting in this thread? A little understanding, a little love, a little compassion, a little mercy? I sure like to believe it is. May all of Jesus Christ dwell in your heart and mind. May all of God's love be made manifest in your life. God willing. With Love and Respect,
Wispring
God's love will always be with men. God so loved the World that He send His only begotten Son into the World that through Christ none will perish. That is one thing. Human understand of Scriptures comes by His Holly Spirit. Should I apologize for understanding for what God has revealed to us? Well I don't think so. We can believe it, or deny it. God is not a respecter of men. When God has revealed to a person, by the Scriptures. should we then deny it, because some body thinks different? Would that not going against what God's Holy Spirit has revealed to a person? I think so…
Each of us has a different way to debate,as long as we debate in a godly manner, God is with us. Again, this Forum is for debating what God has revealed to us. We can believe it, or deny it, it is up to the individual person. We can continue, or we can stop replying to it. if we get frustrated, we should not take it out on the one that debates with us. It is not that person's fault, but our own….We all are different, God has designed us so….And we should except others the way they are, if they do it in a Godly manner…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2011,11:26) [/quote] Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 30 2011,01:11) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,11:57)
(M) Hi Paladin, I don't have time for this.(P) O.K. Come back when you have time to be nice.
(M):D But then you actually addressed two of my other posts, one of which wasn't even addressed to you! Did I stump you with the post you avoided? Nope! You didn't say “I don't have time for this” in the other posts.
(M)
Quote What I don't have time for is people avoiding answering the clear questions I've posed. I had already posted the LXX version of Psalm 138:2, and you failed to respond. Thread Page 13, post #9 I introduced it.
………………14……….7 You responded
………………15……….3 I responded again.
………………36……….4 I re-introduce it.
………………36………10 You responded again.
………………39……….2 we exchange again.
………………47……….2 YOU re-introduce it.
………………49……….1 I responded. Explained difference
between Hebrew and LXX references being off by one chapter number.
………………49……….4 I explain again about chapter discrepancy
………………50……….3 You offer in-depth exegesis.
………………50……….9 Recap to Wispering.
………………51……….7 Remark by Kerwin.
………………51………10 Just a remark.
………………52………..1 Remark by Irene.
………………53………..2 You resurrect the issue.
There have been many posts dealing with this issue, Mike. The fact you disagree does not mean I have not responded. I will appreciate it if you will quit reposting over and over that I have not responded. I have twice told you the difference between Hebrew and LXX references that contribute to the discussion, and you have not aknowledged it.(M)
Quote Then I posted it as a question, so you could look it up and see for yourself, and you failed to comment. And that's when I said “I don't have time for this”, and just reposted it again myself. Paladin, does the LXX version of Psalm 138:2 say that Jehovah magnified His word above every name, or not?
You are the one saying the LXX was another “revelation of God” given for the Gentiles or whatever. So if God gave a revelation that His Word would be magnified above every name, wouldn't that fit right in with Phil 2:9 and Eph 1:21?
That is not what I said Mike. I said “it is a separate revelation,” not “it is a revelation about what will be.” Look at the tense of the verb. It is aorist active, not future.
(M)
Quote Of course it would, and does. But I want to start very slow and basic with you, because you are very good at hiding your non-answers to my questions within the midst of many Greek words and scriptures that don't really address the issues we're discussing. I have no more to say on the “incarnation” issue, for it is clear to me, that in order to keep Jesus from pre-existing, you are willing to believe that a man becomes “incarnated” the minute he is prophesied about, and actually EXISTS from that moment on. You are welcome to this view that is unsupported by scripture, and I'll retain the right to just roll my eyes when I read where you've posted something to that effect. Fair enough?
But I want to delve into this “Word of God” thing with you. I want to take it slow, and keep it simple. So dismiss everything I've posted above (except for the answer to the bolded question about the LXX translation of Psalm 138:2), and pretend my post starts right here:
Hitherto, while there were strangers in the room, he had spoken to us by an officer called Kal Hatzè, the voice or word of the king. . . .
On cases of treason, he sits within his balcony, and speaks through a hole in the side of it, to an officer called Kal Hatzè, “the voice or word of the king,” by whom he sends his questions, or any thing else that occurs, to the judges, who are seated at the council-table.
Those were excerpts from Travels to Discover the Source of the Nile in 1768, 1769, 1770, 1771, 1772 and 1773, by author and historian James Bruce.
Paladin, my question to you is very simple. If the King of Abyssina (described above) has a spokesman called “The Word of the King”, is it possible that God has a Spokesman called “The Word of God”? YES or NO?
No! That's comprised of “N” and “O” – represents negation of the issue, as in “not.” [slow and simple answer responding to slow and simple question) You sure you want to continue in this [slow and simple] manner?
This falls into the same category as those commentators who insist the plural hebrew nouns prove God used the plural of majesty. It is nonsense, but popular.
It does not matter that an Abyssinian spokesperson for the king, had a title “The word of the king” it has nothing to do with what God might have included in scripture, that no one can find.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 31 2011,20:54) Paladin. The soul is incarnate in the flesh but the soul is only part of the spiritual side of a human being.
So according to your understanding Trinitarians believe that Jesus is a human fleshly part with God spiritual part making him a half man and half God.
Does that mean they do not believe he has a human spiritual part?
If so it is an interesting hypothosis but Jesus would certainly not be 100% man.
1st) Jesus is not 100 % man. And no scripture says he is. It says “he was tempted in all point slike as we, yet without sin” but that doesn't make him 100% man.2nd) Though he was “in form of God” that doesn't make him 100 % God, either, and no scripture says he is.
3rd) When the sons of God went in unto the daughters ofmen, and begat a sons and daughters, those progeny were not called “Gods” – they were called “MEN.” [Gen 6:1-4]
And Jesus is called “Son of God,” “Son of man,” And “man.” Nothing in scriptrue ever deals with any %'s of how much of Jesus is God and how much of Jesus is man. It is a manmade doctrine, totally.
As for the soul being “incarnate in flesh,” If you change that to “Spirit” I will agree with you. When the spirit is in the body, they in combination are a soul. The souls is who you are when your spirit is in your body.
What say you?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 31 2011,21:01) Paladin JN 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
JN 6:42 They were saying, “ Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘ I have come down out of heaven’?”what did it mean wen he says ;I have come down out of heaven
PierreHello Pierre;
“The baptism of John, is it from heaven or from men?” The question Jesus asked was to show them whence authority for his words and deeds.
When Jesus says “I am come down from heaven” he is telling us that he did not come from Eden, here all men come from, i.e., God's plan for one man and one woman to be “one flesh” and beget progeny to replenish the earth.
Jesus did not come from tha tunion of one man and one woman, he was begotten of the spirit and made of a woman. [Mat 1:20][Gal 4:4] That came from heaven, not Eden.
Jesus said of his own disciples, “they are not of this world Eeven as I am not of this world.” It was always a question of authority.
Quote (Baker @ April 01 2011,11:25) Quote (Paladin @ April 01 2011,07:06) To all posters on the thread – Can we take a break here, to recoup our souls? I perceive there is a certain modicum of hostility rearing its head, mostly because of doctrinal differences, which should not have the power we give it.
I am working on my responses to several posters, so bear with me for a little time.
This is mostly a challenge to all of us to overcome our natural tendencies to defend, sometimes a little too personally, our beliefs. I think we should be willing to lay down our life for our belief, but not online with each other. We need to all of us remember we are communicating with the image of God.
And if we do not see the image of God in our adversary, how can we find him in the mirror?
I hold myself responsible for as much of the problem as I perceive others share, because I have not made a greater effort for it to not develope as it has.
Please, let us forgive, regroup, and post with our best effort, and let the hostilities lay dormant.
I will not call out any by name, but ask any who feel they have been maligned or mistreated, have mercy upon us all as we give mercy to you. And please, don't leave the thread, but join in with your best effort.
Grace and Hope to all from my house to your house
Paladin! At first I thought I would wait and see if some other member would say something. When we joined Heaven Net, I came here for fellowship. I had to learn, that with all the different believes, that there is frustration, and some times even anger. You will not get away from that here. Is it right, No. Is it easy to handle, no. I also learned, that you can't prove to another anything. If God does not open your eyes, you will simply not understand. You can lead someone to the water, but you cannot make Him drink it. But in general most members are nice. We all grow at different stages. Waiting on God is hard to do….That said, I wish all would come to the truth, will it happen now? I don't think so. But one day we all will know the truth. To that day I am forever looking forward to….
With Christian Love and Peace Irene
I knew there was something about you.Well said dear sister.
Quote (Paladin @ April 01 2011,10:50) The fact you disagree does not mean I have not responded.
Boy does that sound familiar!WJ
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