- This topic has 3,215 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,11:57)
Hi Paladin,I don't have time for this.
O.K. Come back when you have time to be nice.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,12:07) [/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote:I assumed, for example, that because you also reference the LXX you were knowledgeable about some of the things I know about, and responded to your questions accordingly. I see now, that is not the case, and I will try to remember that you do not know some of the Septuagint issues with which I am familiar, having done the research for myself.
(Mike) I'm not familiar with much of the Greek language or the LXX. But I have an Internet full of resources. So if you think you “know” something about something the LXX says, then post it. I can surely find it for myself and keep you honest.
If I relied on you to keep me honest, that means you would have to think like I do. Sorry, can't depend on that. It occurs to me we would have to agree on a standard of honesty, and I cannot see that happening any time soon. I have seen your posts in which you claim you dish it out even as you receive it. may I point out, you are “dishing out” much more than you received from me. (Just trying to keep you honest)
(M)
Quote As for the LXX not being a translation, I disagree. Kangaroo Jack knows the exact number, but I believe he said that Jesus and the Apostles quoted scripture from the LXX over the MT 67% to 33%. So you offer Kangaroo Jack 3:16 as a rebuttal? How exactly does quoting LXX more than Hebrew text prove it is a translation?
(M)
Quote Were Jesus and the original Apostles dealing mainly with Gentiles? Nope! They were dealing with Jews, that nation to whom the LXX was given in line with prophecy. That is why they didn't just ignore it outright. They knew God had given it into their hands, so they could not deny their truth. But they couldn't debate and win either, because the Jews who stayed mainly in Jerusalem were not familiar with its pages, their chief priests and leaders having depended upon the Hebrew text almost exclusively. Jesus by example taught the apostles to depend upon LXX as God's word just as much as Hebrew text. And they won their debates with the Jews till the last half of the second century, when recenions began to appear.
Hi Everyone,
Just showing it's doable Ed.Quote Your using colors to explain math.
a simple program using color to expain math via symbolic representation of concepts
{1=black; 0=white}= binary number system in hexadecimal format/structure
mathematical operators:
red = (+)
green = (-)
blue = (*)
orange = (/)
purple = (=)
white,white,white,white= decimal 0
white,white,white,black = decimal 1
white,white,black,white = decimal 2
white,white,black,black = decimal 3
white,black,white,white = decimal 41 red 1 orange 2
3 green 2 orange 1
2 blue 2 orange 4
3 green 1 orange 1
====================================
This may seem far-fetched, however, if the color black was is no frequencies of color and the color white is all frequencies of color and children were taught this from a young age in a logical framework, then, learning the concepts of frequencies in sound, light, electricity, and such things as densities in solids and liquids.It would probably come easy. I would have used HTML to illustrate the named colors in the color they represent, but, this website has a very limited spectrum of colors available to the user. I did this just for fun and to illustrate a concept.With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,14:07)
Hi Wispring,Think about it in light of these scriptures.
LXX: magnified your word over every name
Phil 2:9 – Therefore God exalted [His Word] to the highest place and gave [His Word] the name that is above every name,
Eph 1 – he raised [His Word] from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above………..every name that is invoked,
When you accept that Jesus IS the Word of God, it will fall into place for you.
I notice you had to change the “scriptures” to say what you need your “doctrine” to say. Not nice, Mike.
Now, if you can find a scripture that says Jesus is the word of God, And another that says about the word that was God – “the word that was God died” well…. that would go a long way toward establishing your credibility.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 30 2011,13:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,12:07) [/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote:I assumed, for example, that because you also reference the LXX you were knowledgeable about some of the things I know about, and responded to your questions accordingly. I see now, that is not the case, and I will try to remember that you do not know some of the Septuagint issues with which I am familiar, having done the research for myself.
(Mike) I'm not familiar with much of the Greek language or the LXX. But I have an Internet full of resources. So if you think you “know” something about something the LXX says, then post it. I can surely find it for myself and keep you honest.
If I relied on you to keep me honest, that means you would have to think like I do. Sorry, can't depend on that. It occurs to me we would have to agree on a standard of honesty, and I cannot see that happening any time soon. I have seen your posts in which you claim you dish it out even as you receive it. may I point out, you are “dishing out” much more than you received from me. (Just trying to keep you honest)
(M)
Quote As for the LXX not being a translation, I disagree. Kangaroo Jack knows the exact number, but I believe he said that Jesus and the Apostles quoted scripture from the LXX over the MT 67% to 33%. So you offer Kangaroo Jack 3:16 as a rebuttal? How exactly does quoting LXX more than Hebrew text prove it is a translation?
(M)
Quote Were Jesus and the original Apostles dealing mainly with Gentiles? Nope! They were dealing with Jews, that nation to whom the LXX was given in line with prophecy. That is why they didn't just ignore it outright. They knew God had given it into their hands, so they could not deny their truth. But they couldn't debate and win either, because the Jews who stayed mainly in Jerusalem were not familiar with its pages, their chief priests and leaders having depended upon the Hebrew text almost exclusively. Jesus by example taught the apostles to depend upon LXX as God's word just as much as Hebrew text. And they won their debates with the Jews till the last half of the second century, when recenions began to appear.
This line of reasoning seems off topic though it seem apropriate for a new thread in the Forum called The bible. This thread is about incarnation an concept I have a clue about since it is not mentioned in scripture.Perhaps the concept has not been explained well enough for me to understand and accurately compare it to what scipture actually states. Feel free to try to do so. Thank you.
To all,
The Holy Spirit is incarnate in true Christians thus making them the sons of God.
I am going by a definition for incarnate from thefreedictionary.com; specifically “Embodied in human form; personified'
Using the definition, “Invested with bodily nature and form” I would state that the spiritual nature of man is incarnate in the fleshly nature of man.
I believe The Holy Spirit is incarnate in true Christians would actually fit both definitions depending what you meant by Holy Spirit.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,09:07) Hi Wispring, Think about it in light of these scriptures.
LXX: magnified your word over every name
Phil 2:9 – Therefore God exalted [His Word] to the highest place
and gave [His Word] the name that is above every name,Eph 1 – he raised [His Word] from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above………..every name that is invoked,
When you accept that Jesus IS the Word of God, it will fall into place for you.
mike
So God's Word died. Questionable hypothosis.Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,20:28) [/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote:[quote=mikeboll64,Mar. 30 2011,12:07]
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 29 2011,07:03) ~”SNIP”~ for brevity
(Kerwin)
Quote This thread is about incarnation an concept I have a clue about since it is not mentioned in scripture. (P) That's probably why the OP begins with
Quote If I understand this “Incarnation” trinity theory, you are telling me that Jesus preexisted with the Father in eternity, then “incarnated” by the Holy spirit in the womb of Mary. Scripture tells a far different story… (K)
Quote Perhaps the concept has not been explained well enough for me to understand and accurately compare it to what scipture actually states. Feel free to try to do so. Thank you. (P) The theorists have concocted an imaginary land in which a soul of the as yet unborn can be placed into the womb of an as yet unmarried woman, and be developed to maturity by birth and growth to become the leader of an entire religion.
The question I have raised, is, the timeing and meaning of
“incarnation” do not take into account, the effect of prophecy on doctrine. I contend that Jesus began to exist in prophecy in Gen 3:15, and subsequently can be traced down through all the Messianic prophecies, naming names, and events that directly effect Jesus the man, in his own time.I further contend, that when Jesus references events described in the Old Testament, which directly effect his teachings, he is speaking of prophetic fulfillment, not realities.
For example, when he says “Abraham saw my day and rejoiced”[John 8:56] he was not saying he was alive in Abraham's day, he was saying Abraham knew the prophecies and was made glad. This is verified in -“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.” [Gal 3:6-9]
This preaching of the gospel unto Abraham was first pronounced in Gen 17, in which God told the story by using two verbs, one of potential and one of kinetic virtue.
Here, God tells Abraham “Thou shalt be a father…” “As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.” [Gen 17:4]
And here, God tells Abraham “I have made thee a Father.”
Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.” [Gen 17:5] Only one verse apart, changed the whole prophetic world.I contend that Jesus was “incarnated in prophecy” with Gen 3:15 and 17:4-5; not John 1:14, which is referencing the logos, not Jesus.
Do you need more?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,20:37) To all, The Holy Spirit is incarnate in true Christians thus making them the sons of God.
I am going by a definition for incarnate from thefreedictionary.com; specifically “Embodied in human form; personified'
Using the definition, “Invested with bodily nature and form” I would state that the spiritual nature of man is incarnate in the fleshly nature of man.
I believe The Holy Spirit is incarnate in true Christians would actually fit both definitions depending what you meant by Holy Spirit.
Well said. Though I would probably contest the use of “true Christians” as though there is a classification “false Christian.”
Though I do know what you mean, and even probably know some who fall into that category, I am not the judge, so can't make the call.
But then, we are told to “come out from among them and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing.”[II Cor 6:17]
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,09:07) Hi Wispring, Think about it in light of these scriptures.
LXX: magnified your word over every name
Phil 2:9 – Therefore God exalted [His Word] to the highest place
and gave [His Word] the name that is above every name,Eph 1 – he raised [His Word] from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above………..every name that is invoked,
When you accept that Jesus IS the Word of God, it will fall into place for you.
mike
So God's Word died. Questionable hypothosis.
Not just “God's word” –The word that was God died. impossible hypothesis.
Paladin! Then John 1:14 is wrong according to you/ Psalm 138 was written before they had the Bible. I do wonder if it could be talking about Jesus, because He is The Word of God. There are just to many Scriptures for me to ignore that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 tells us so.
I find to just reason it away to say it is not in the Bible I am sorry I just find that wrong. I found it on the Internet in the Original Transcript.
Col. 1:2 and John !;2 also tells us that God through Jesus created all.
John 8:58 is easier understood then some say.
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
When you take verse 57 makes it clear, when the Jews asked Jesus. I know that I am is somewhat vague, but because of verse 57 I can understand it…..
Our German Bible explains it better, and it says that Jesus was before Abraham…Therefore I believe what Scriptures teach me. Sorry but I don;t play favoritism. I like you as a person very much, and you have been kind to me, that I appreciate…. I always say, time will tell…
Peace and Love IreneKerwin……….Paladin is right in this brother, God's word never died the Man Jesus died and was raised by GOD to eternal life. God's Word always existed with GOD and never died brother. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 30 2011,15:41) Mike………..The only “asinine Crap” being slung around here is coming from you demeaning trash mouth, no one elses. IMO gene
If I had said this I would have received a tile.Paladin said:
Quote So you offer Kangaroo Jack 3:16 as a rebuttal? How exactly does quoting LXX more than Hebrew text prove it is a translation?
Paladin,You're not really that ignorant are you? The LXX is the Hellenist translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. I bet you didn't know that a Hellenist was a Greek speaking Jew. Sixty-seven percent of old testament quotes by Jesus and the apostles are from the LXX. This gives it a whole lot of authority.
How do you expect to acquire any intellectual repsect here when you make such nonsensical statements?
KJ
Gene said:
Quote God's Word always existed with GOD and never died brother.
But death does not mean “to cease to exist.” Jesus likened His death and resurrection to Jonah's being in the belly of the whale. Er uh…Jonah was in the whale's belly ALIVE dude!As Jonah was 'dead' to the outside world but ALIVE in sheol, so Jesus was 'dead' to this world but ALIVE in sheol.
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 31 2011,03:13) Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. When you take verse 57 makes it clear, when the Jews asked Jesus. I know that I am is somewhat vague, but because of verse 57 I can understand it…..
Our German Bible explains it better, and it says that Jesus was before Abraham…Therefore I believe what Scriptures teach me.It's o.k. dear sister, for you to cling to your beliefs until someone completely convinces you otherwise.
You say you don't play favorites, but suppose I can show you that you do? Perhaps you don't but I trust you to tell me if I am telling it true.
You say you believe Jesus was before Abraham because scriptures teach you that it is so.
Look at what Paul says – “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (Jesus), but that which is natural (Adam); and afterward that which is spiritual.” Paul says Adam was before Jesus.
Now, do you believe what the scripture says about this? Or am I right, that you do not?
Grace and hope to you
Kangaroo wrote:[/quote]
Paladin said:Quote So you offer Kangaroo Jack 3:16 as a rebuttal? How exactly does quoting LXX more than Hebrew text prove it is a translation? (KJ) Paladin,
You're not really that ignorant are you?
Hmmm!!, I'm thinking here, give me a moment…..
(KJ)
Quote The LXX is the Hellenist translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. I bet you didn't know that a Hellenist was a Greek speaking Jew. Nope! A Hellenist was any non-Greek who took up Greek culture, language, and/or Greek habits and ways. It is true There were Hellenistic Jews, but Jews were not all that was Hellenistic.
(KJ)
Quote Sixty-seven percent of old testament quotes by Jesus and the apostles are from the LXX. This gives it a whole lot of authority. I think the ratio is greater that that, but don't have my proof in front of me, so will let it ride for now.
(KJ)
Quote How do you expect to acquire any intellectual repsect here when you make such nonsensical statements? Is that what I'm doing here?
WoW, intellectual repsect.
Whoda thunk it?
I'll tell you what is true my friend, (You are my friend aren't you?) The Septuagint is not a translation of the Hebrew text. It was prophesied by Isaiah from between 340 and 740 years (depending upon when in that intervening 400 years between testaments) before the LXX was revealed and written.
“For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people” [Isa 28:11]
This is not referencing a translation, it is referencing a separate revelation from God to be kept in safety by the people of God till the Gentiles begin to come into the kingdom.
The LXX is a separate revelation from God, given to the Jews to hold in safekeeping till the Messiah comes, and the Gentiles have a scripture that leads them to God, just as the Hebrew scripture leads the Jews to God [ Rom 15:4] “For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.”
Look at how the “logion” is referenced in the new testament;
“always plural, and considered to be a message originating from God and received as a direct revelation.”Now, look at how it is referenced pertaining to the “direct revelations” given to the Jews, and held in abbeyance for the Gentiles; “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.” [Rom 3:1-2]
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” [Acts 7:38]
“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” [Heb 5:12]
“If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
Look at how many of the verses differ from the Hebrew. Look at how many times the Hebrew is not duplicated anywhere.
God gave the Jews enough information in the Hebrew account to lead the jews to Christ, but kept back part of the story to keep Satan from learning what the plan of salvation is. If he had told man the whole story Satan would have found out and would never have crucified the Lord Jesus, son of God. God knows man cannot keep a secret, so he did not tempt him with knowledge that was dangerous to his plans.
Trace out the Hebrew word “tzoor” [rock] for just one example, and tell me it is a translation.
Deu 32:4 “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”[Heb]
Deu 32:4″As for God, his works are true, and all his ways are judgement: God is faithful, and there is no unrightousness in him; just and holy is the Lord.” [Sept.]
“For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?” [II Sam 22:32][Heb]
“Who is strong, but the Lord? And who will be a creator, except our God?' [Sept]
This is just two from a list of many verses that differ. And the reason for it is obvious. When the Jews wandered in the wilderness, they came accross many families and tribes of other peoples. Imagine the problem they would have if asked by a wandering Gentile family – “Who is your God” and the respond “Our God is a rock.” “WoW,” exclaims the Gentile holy man, “So is our God, a rock, and that tree over there, and see that mountain in the distance… yep! our main God. So, when God caused the Septuagint to be produced, He caused several significant changes to be made.
But the “scholars” have claimed for over two thousand years
“the Septuagint is just a bad translation of the Hebrew,” because that avoids having to study it as an intergal part of the word of God. No one's conscience is disturbed for not studying half of the message given by God to the Jews.Another blatant example is the difference in Isaiah's account of the prophecy of the virgin bearing a son – Immanuel. In the Hebrew account “almah” references a maiden, which any young woman would qualify to be; whether of marriageable age, or newly married; but the Septuagint limits the prophecy to “parthenos” a virgin, to bare a son. NOT a translation.
If you will study the Septuagint, instead of books about the Septuagint, you will see this in depth, my friend. The Commentaries are written by Scholars, but the scriptures were not. Why would you read books about the bible, instead of simply reading the bible.
I began over fifty-five years ago, in the commentaries, and found only confusion and contradiction; until one day about forty-five years ago, I begged God to show me the truth, even promised to read the books longer into each evening, and invest ever more money into more books, and he convinced me through his word, to leave all those books about the book alone, and simply invest my soul, not my money, in the book of books.
It is amazing what you will learn if you will not trust to books about the book but lean on the Spirit of God for understanding
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 30 2011,08:05) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,09:07)
So God's Word died. Questionable hypothosis.
Not just “God's word” –The word that was God died. impossible hypothesis.
True.That is the logic behind their attack of the “Trinity” doctrine. Jesus could not be God because God cannot die.
However the question is how does one scripturally define death?
Jesus said…
…I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26
It is obvious that Jesus is speaking of life in the flesh (body, temple) that will never die unless one believes that there were some with him that didn't die after the flesh.
Jesus experienced death according to the flesh (as every man does – the body without the spirit is dead) but he was the resurrection and the life, John calls him the “eternal life”, and with his own words he says “I am the Life”, and that life did not die but left his temple (body) and went to the center of the earth for 3 days and three nights as Jonah was kept alive in the well Jesus was kept alive through the Spirit.
The only other alternative is he “ceased to exist” when he died, which would mean if he was recreated by his resurrection then he would not be the same Jesus that died.
So the argument that God cannot die therefore Jesus cannot be God is a straw man because the “eternal Spirit” of Jesus didn't die.
Blessing WJ
Quote
1 red 1 orange 2
3 green 2 orange 1
2 blue 2 orange 4
3 green 1 orange 1
woops! I got so sidetracked trying to find Hex colors this website would accept my proof-read was in error. Please substitute 'purple' for 'orange' so the internal logic remains consistantQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2011,06:51) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 30 2011,08:05) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 30 2011,20:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 30 2011,09:07)
So God's Word died. Questionable hypothosis.
Not just “God's word” –The word that was God died. impossible hypothesis.
True.That is the logic behind their attack of the “Trinity” doctrine. Jesus could not be God because God cannot die.
However the question is how does one scripturally define death?
Jesus said…
…I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25, 26
It is obvious that Jesus is speaking of life in the flesh (body, temple) that will never die unless one believes that there were some with him that didn't die after the flesh.
Jesus experienced death according to the flesh (as every man does – the body without the spirit is dead) but he was the resurrection and the life, John calls him the “eternal life”, and with his own words he says “I am the Life”, and that life did not die but left his temple (body) and went to the center of the earth for 3 days and three nights as Jonah was kept alive in the well Jesus was kept alive through the Spirit.
The only other alternative is he “ceased to exist” when he died, which would mean if he was recreated by his resurrection then he would not be the same Jesus that died.
So the argument that God cannot die therefore Jesus cannot be God is a straw man because the “eternal Spirit” of Jesus didn't die.
Blessing WJ
When men speak of men dying, they already know it is the body that dies, and the spirit lives on. Even the ancients civilizatons, savage though they were, knew this “living spirit” thingie.But if you look at what happened to the spirits that are in prison, you will begin to see what 'death” consists of.
In an earlier post in this thread (ThreadPage 29; post #10) I discussed “oikeeteerion” which is a garment of immortality that is put on after one takes off mortality.
In that post I also talked about spirits that roam the earth –
“walketh through dry places seeking rest.” [Mat 12:43]One of the great promises of eternal life, is a promise, always, of rest. That rest is only found in God's companmy.
There is no rest separate from life, and life is available to man two ways; 1) “the life is in the blood” is a reference to men alive in the flesh; 2) “Life in the spirit” – “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.”[Gal 6:8]
There is no life-giving spirit for the man who knows only the life in the flesh. When that flesh dies, the blood corrupts and dissipates, and is never recovered; that body is consigned to the flames of eternal torment and no moisture is found in flames, for a tormented spirit; therefore no rest.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
