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Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,12:12) Hi Paladin,
Quote Jesus is not the personification of the logos.
So, more precisely, the logos is personified in Jesus. When a saint relenquishes his/her life pattern to Jesus's life pattern this makes:Quote Mark 8:35 (King James Version) 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Quote John 14:23 (King James Version) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
a spiritual reality for the saint.
I understand, brother, your tweaking of my understanding as correction of splitting the Logos as it were and appreciate your advise in that respect.With Love and Respect,
Wispring
Our live is nothing against Jesus. He never was a mere man, like some want to believe. Splitting the logos? Never heard such a thing….. if the Word of God is not Jesus then God Himself became flesh. I am sorry Paladin, I don't buy any of it. And I also don't believe it is not in the original transcript. It is….i also have a German Bible it is in there too….We have five different Bibles and in the Rye Study Bible it tells us to go to for crass reference….Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as]a master craftsman one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him; This is not wisdom, because God always had wisdom. and wisdom could ot be a master craftsman….
i like the German translation, it explains it well.
Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war Gott, und das Wort war mit Gott….Zwei Personen, nicht eine….
Peace Irene
I will try this once more. Bolded letters designate a simple question I've asked but Paladin has not yet answered.
I said:
Quote (M) We've already discussed this Paladin. There is nothing above the Name of YHWH. Read the LXX translation of this Psalm and tell me what it says. Because apparently you didn't believe me when I showed you. Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,09:53)
Psa138:2 “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” [Psa 138:2]
Paladin, how is Psalm 138:2 translated in the LXX?Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,09:53)
Really! You see a “new, unused, unfamiliar” name as a reason it could not be a “new” name? Well, that does explain a little.
No, I see a name that NO ONE KNOWS EXCEPT FOR JESUS as a reason “Word of God” cannot be that new name.Paldin, of the THREE names of Jesus that we DO KNOW that are mentioned in Rev 19, why would you pick only ONE of them, the “Word of God”, and conclude that this name we DO KNOW is the new name of Jesus that NO ONE BUT HE HIMSELF KNOWS?
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,09:53)
Your reference to “no man knowing” is according to the use of “ginosko” knowledge, but John does not use “ginosko” here, he uses “oiden” which is a reference to knowledge gained through experience, so John is saying no one knew it because it was beyond their experience.
Forget about the “oiden” for a minute and deal with the “ei me autos”, (but he himself). Get it? ONLY JESUS KNOWS THIS NEW NAME. If John also knows it, then it can't be said that no one knows it but Jesus himself.Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,09:53)
Lighten up Mike, that drill sergeant stuff looks silly on you. I've already done my military stuff, so save it for someone you can influence with it.As for your bad manners “even if you wanted to twist the scriptures…” is an insult. Grow up.
Really?
That's your answer to the question? If people around here would answer a simple question when it is put to them, there would be no need for drill sergeant behavior. The question remains:How is it that you pick only ONE of the three names Jesus is called in Rev 19 as this “new name that no one knows BUT HE HIMSELF”? Why do you not pick one of the other two names mentioned? Why only “Word of God”? Is it because only this one works in support of your theory?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 25 2011,09:04) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2011,22:18) OH…………….THAT'S RIGHT! We're talking about GENE! He has the same comprehension problems when it comes to scripture, too. 
MikeI don't agree with Gene in most things and he ticks me off at times.
But you are a so-called Moderator, so why do you run around this sight belittling others and constantly puking ad hominems at others that disagree with you?
WJ
Says the man who is puking an ad hominem at me! 
What's your name again Worshipping Jesus? Keith, right? Well then, KEITH is the only one on this site that you need to concern yourself with, okay? I'll post and moderate as I see fit. And if t8 sees fit to remove me, then he will. He asked me to do this job………I didn't ask him for it. And my only stipulation to accepting his offer was that I could continue to post with the same quality, quantity, and personal style that I had been posting with. I believe the words I used were, “As long as I am still able to dish out exactly how it's dished to me, I'll do it.” He agreed to that, so I agreed to moderate.
Really Keith, have you ever seen Irene post ANYTHING on this site that would lead you to believe she worships Jesus as God? Yet this is the implication Gene made. Along with years of implications that we are Trinitarians, Gnostics, and antichrists.
What I said was warranted, and true. For Gene is famous around here for adding words to scriptures to make those scriptures fit around HIS beliefs, instead of forming his beliefs around those scriptures.
mike
Mike……….If anyone is adding to scriptures it is you say things like Like God originally created everything through Jesus even though at the creation of every thing, Jesus' man is not even mentioned, But you say it was Jesus, now who is adding to scriptures , and Jesus said he existed before Abraham , and you assume the is saying He was (alive) before Abraham, again who is adding to scriptures , and you say a lot scripture is not saying, like Jesus preexisted his berth on earth, and you also say people don't answer you when nearly all have but you seem to ignorant to understand it so you just repeat over and over “Just answer my questions”. I am not famous around here for adding to scriptures thats your Johnny come lately twisted LIE about ME, trying to demean my Character, i believe that would fit your profile far better then most here.
WJ is right you go around here belittling others in many ways by your stupid remarks and personal insults as well as you stupid Ikons. Look i do not agree with WJ position on PREEXISTENCE or HIS TRINITARIAN Position, but i still respect him and his rights to have his view even if they differ from mine. and i do not belittle Him or anyone else Here.
Mike you are the source of most of the personal insults here and you feel free to do that to anyone who disagree with you dogmas and misunderstood texts. You need to work on your arrogant mannerism, it is not becoming a Monitor IMO
gene
gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
Mike……….If anyone is adding to scriptures it is you say things like Like God originally created everything through Jesus
Yep, I DO say that, because scripture says that.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
and Jesus said he existed before Abraham , and you assume the is saying He was (alive) before Abraham,
Yeah, when Jesus says he existed before Abraham, I take that to mean he existed before Abraham. What do YOU take it to mean?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
and you also say people don't answer you when nearly all have but you seem to ignorant to understand it so you just repeat over and over “Just answer my questions”.
Hmmmm………….maybe you're right, Gene. Let's see………….here are a couple of direct questions I've asked you in the past couple of weeks, maybe you will answer them DIRECTLY this time for all to see:John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.1. Gene, does this scripture say the Word BECAME flesh, or “came to be IN someone who was flesh?”
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?2. Gene, does this scripture say that angels ARE spirits, or that angels “are bodies with spirits (INTELLECTS) IN them”?
Genesis 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.3. Gene, does this scripture depict a SERPENT that will crawl on its belly and eat dust all the days of its life, or the “adversarial spirit that is in all of us that will crawl on its belly eat dust all the days of its life”?
Now all the words in quotations are things you've actually said to me many times, even though they aren't the words in the scriptures I've quoted. So now's your chance to show everyone how well you answer my DIRECT questions with DIRECT answers, Gene.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2011,21:43) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
Mike……….If anyone is adding to scriptures it is you say things like Like God originally created everything through Jesus
Yep, I DO say that, because scripture says that.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
and Jesus said he existed before Abraham , and you assume the is saying He was (alive) before Abraham,
Yeah, when Jesus says he existed before Abraham, I take that to mean he existed before Abraham. What do YOU take it to mean?Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 28 2011,21:17)
and you also say people don't answer you when nearly all have but you seem to ignorant to understand it so you just repeat over and over “Just answer my questions”.
Hmmmm………….maybe you're right, Gene. Let's see………….here are a couple of direct questions I've asked you in the past couple of weeks, maybe you will answer them DIRECTLY this time for all to see:John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.1. Gene, does this scripture say the Word BECAME flesh, or “came to be IN someone who was flesh?”
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?2. Gene, does this scripture say that angels ARE spirits, or that angels “are bodies with spirits (INTELLECTS) IN them”?
Genesis 3:14
So the LORD God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, “Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.3. Gene, does this scripture depict a SERPENT that will crawl on its belly and eat dust all the days of its life, or the “adversarial spirit that is in all of us that will crawl on its belly eat dust all the days of its life”?
Now all the words in quotations are things you've actually said to me many times, even though they aren't the words in the scriptures I've quoted. So now's your chance to show everyone how well you answer my DIRECT questions with DIRECT answers, Gene.
mike
Mike
Ge 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:how can someone be cursed above ?
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2011,22:20) Hi Pierre, It means cursed “more than” the other things mentioned.
mike
Mikethis would then mean that it is the serpent that was responsible and not the one sitting behind him ?
if the curse goes to the one that his behind the serpent this would mean that he as been lowered just above all the others
animals ?Pierre
Mike………So tell us wheres one of the “SERPENTS THAT GO AROUND CRAWLING ON IT BELLY EATING DUST IS. Have you seen one lately,was Peter one of these belly crawling serpents of yours because Jesus called him SATAN right?, or perhaps Judas was one right after all Jesus called him a Devil. But you have a problem they were not going around crawling around on their bellies on the ground right? . Seem you are stuck with a dilemma to try to explain IF YOU CAN > Jodi has answered this completely and accurately .
As far as the John 1:14 i have answered that The word is Gods was GOD who was (IN) Christ Jesus . Or do you not believe Jesus when he said “the FATHER WAS (IN) HIM.” Paladin has given us all a complete understand if this with the Greek word breakdown, and it basically agree with what i see and understand also. If you could see your problem is (BLOCK) READING and then saying answer my question does it say this or that, trying to force the text to some kind of LITERIAL Understanding of YOUR OWN. without understand in what way it is said and what is the proper context it is render or as in the case of the Serpent what is the Personification mean and who or what does it relate too.
Example >>>>>>.You say God created everything (TROUGH) Jesus Christ. and you relate that to the beginning of all creation in Genesis, But I have posted many time here where God said He created every thing (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) This you and other just through out the window as if it is not relevant or come up with some thing like yes he did it alone an by himself, but he did it Trough Jesus , If that were the case then he did not do it (ALONE AND BY HIMSELF) like it say he did. So you simply ignore that text and continue to force the other text to say what in fact is does not truly mean or say. And yet you say i add to scriptures . Paladin have even more excellently explained this to us all, Just read it and think about what he posted instead of forcing you dogmas on him and others here. IMO
peace and love…………………………….gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2011,22:31) What are you talking about? Who was “behind” the serpent? mike
MikeRev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,it seems that the original serpent grew into a dragon as time past and nations grew larger
Pierre
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 28 2011,19:34) woops. missed a “ho” before theou. just imagine i put it there ok?
It would be “tou theou” = genitive, or possessive case.Quote (Baker @ Mar. 29 2011,11:36) If John 1:18 is after Jesus resurrection, then what about John 17:5? Here Jesus is asking His Father that He wants the glory again, which He had with Him before the world was….i think we all know that He is a Spirit now. That then shows me that is what He was before the World was….What about that?
Peace Irene
Dear sister, it is good that you will still ask.When God planned for creation, he also planned for many other things that would come into play at a later time;
Like eternal life for believers; but he promised us eternal life before he began creation. We had the promise of eternal life without having been in God's presence to receive that promise.
Like glory – God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world;
Like selection – We were chosen in Christ before God created the world;
Like works – We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world;
Like purpose and grace – We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world;
LOike a purposed sacrifice – Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world;
Like a loved saviour – God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. That does not mean Jesus was present with God to receive that love. It means God loved that which he had planned.
John 17:5 does not say what you have asked, dear sister, look carefully for the words “again” – “restore” “in thy presence” and similar phrases and words. They are missing. They are supplied by what the mind expects to see based on what the mind believes they mean.
Jesus is simply asking God to “..glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
“I had” is from the Greek “exw” and is imperfect active. The Greek imperfect consists of continuous action at some time prior to theevent of asking. In other words dear sister, Jesus had it all along in promise. That is the only way this makes any sense at all, given the Greek tenses.
The second word I want to discuss is the Greek word “pro” which means before, and can reference either time or place. It has been translated to mean “time,” but it is wrong. “Pro” in this verse should be understood the same way it is used in Acts 12:14 “Peter stood before the gate” meaning “Peter stood in front of the gate.”
Then there is “was,” the last word in the request should not, cannot, be “was” because it is present active, not aorist or imperfect or any other past tense Greek verb. The Greek word used here is a form of “eimi” and It means “is.” Jesus is not referencing a time prior to creation, he is referencing a promise of something that was right there before the whole world for all to see, in time, not eternity. An example of this glory that was before the world for all to consider, is found in Isaiah – “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]
Many of the Psalms show Jesus at God's right hand [Psa 80:17]; and Isaiah even references that event [52:11-15], but it is not a past event, but future when Isaiah writes of it; Zechariah writes of the man that is God's “fellow” [Zec 13:7]. Yet it is right there for all the world to read and understand and look forward to seeing.
John 17:5 is not a request to restore anything, but to give something promised. The Greek word translated “restore” is apokatasteesei and is future active; it is not in John 17:5.
Hi Irene.
Regarding Sheppard of Hermas,
You quoted;
Quote Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Quote John 1:1 says in the beginning was The Word, and the Word was God and the Word was with God. And verse 14 tells us that The Word became flesh. I am not certain what is meant by in the beginning. If it is the beginning of Jesus, or the time of all creation. In Hermas, the Son was the Holy Spirit.
I think the Holy Spirit is also known as the Word or Logos.
The Word or Holy Spirit pre-existed from what I can gather (in Hermas).
Jesus the Man didn't.So when Jesus spoke, he spoke as the Holy Spirit spoke through him (the Holy Spirit being the Son of God).
Gets confusing but sometimes I just get it.
Example where it says “Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is to come.”
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 29 2011,12:12)
Hi Paladin,
Quote Jesus is not the personification of the logos. So, more precisely, the logos is personified in Jesus. When a saint relenquishes his/her life pattern to Jesus's life pattern this makes:
Quote Mark 8:35 (King James Version) 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Quote John 14:23 (King James Version) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
a spiritual reality for the saint.
I understand, brother, your tweaking of my understanding as correction of splitting the Logos as it were and appreciate your advise in that respect.With Love and respect, Wispring
o.k. my friend, one more time…
Jesus is not the logos nor is he the personification thereof.
“Jesus Christ lives in you” is the concept.
“The logos of God” is the name of tha concept.
When the saint so lives his/her life that it is no longer he/she whose life is expressed, but Jesus' life is expressed in the saint, so that when others see the saint, they see that he/she has something beyond the “self” and want whatever it is they have, because they see “Christ living in them” – THAT is “The logos of God” personified.Christ is still in heaven, but God has sent the spirit of Christ into their hearts – “And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” [Gal 4:6] enabling the saints to live better than they could without that spirit.
It is heavy stuff, but worth the effort to see it.
Quote (Baker @ Mar. 29 2011,12:49) [/quote] Wispring,Mar. wrote:Hi Paladin,
Quote Jesus is not the personification of the logos.
So, more precisely, the logos is personified in Jesus. When a saint relenquishes his/her life pattern to Jesus's life pattern this makes:Quote Mark 8:35 (King James Version) 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Quote John 14:23 (King James Version) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
a spiritual reality for the saint.
I understand, brother, your tweaking of my understanding as correction of splitting the Logos as it were and appreciate your advise in that respect.With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote Our live is nothing against Jesus. He never was a mere man, like some want to believe. Splitting the logos? Never heard such a thing….. if the Word of God is not Jesus then God Himself became flesh. I am sorry Paladin, I don't buy any of it. And I also don't believe it is not in the original transcript. It is….i also have a German Bible it is in there too….We have five different Bibles and in the Rye Study Bible it tells us to go to for crass reference…. Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as]a master craftsman one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;This is not wisdom, because God always had wisdom. and wisdom could not be a master craftsman…
The Rye Bible puts words in that are not in the Greek. “Master Craftsman” is not in the Greek. So it ceases to be an issue. That is simply an evaluation expressed by the translators of the Rye version.
Jesus is masculine, Wisdom is feminine. Paul tells us Jesus was not wisdom in the beginning, because as Paul put it “who of God is made unto us wisdom;” If He was already wisdom, he would be wisdom to all, not just to “us.”
And he could not, as a child, have increased in wisdom – “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man” [Luke 2:52] Wisdom cannot increase in wisdom. That is like saying “God grew into God.”
Paladin……..what is amazing to me is even though i do not understand Greek as you do, I still see it over all the same way you have explained it. I believed all along that the glory was a predestined Glory Jesus was going to attain n ot that he already once had that glory, and this hold true for all the Saints and Man in general , because it say “THOU HAST MADE HIM (MAN) LOWER THEN THE ANGELS FOR THE TASTING OF DEATH , BUT HAS CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, this also was the same with Jesus it was a foreordained Glory. This makes perfect sense to me, i get frustrated also when they Just can't understand this. I am glad you are here maybe some here can get a better understanding of the words of GOD, Bless you and continue to guide you to give us all a better understanding of scripture by giving us the true Greek Structure of what is being said, I know Wisping also feels this way to.
peace and love to you and yours Paladin…………………………………….gene
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