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Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,01:08) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,21:06) Actually, dear sister, there are much more than forty verses that are used to prove that Jesus pre-existed his existence, but that doesn't mean that is what they teach. it simply means that is what they are used for. (Irene)
Quote
There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth.
Peace and Love Irene
No my friend you are ignoring those Scriptures, and I don't know for the world why? When Jesus told us that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, you ignore. Why? Just because you think they were put there by the Translators that YOU think they believe in a trinity? When Jesus says He wants the glory He had with His Father before the world was, He is lying?
Jhn 17:5 καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
I can take word by word and see if this is true or false….I have all the Dictionaries I want. From German to Greek and Hebrew.
And when you go on the Internet, they will deny that Jesus existed. Would it not be correct if they believe in the trinity, which most do, they would also believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
Yes, my friend all do that believe in the trinity. The difference is that they don't believe that Jesus had a beginning. The firstborn of all creation. And all those Scriptures YOU will deny. You might as well throw the Bible out, because YOU don't believe in some of those Scriptures….
Dear Brother, maybe YOU should consider believing what Jesus said…….
Peace and Love Irene
Dear sister, might I suggest you go back and begin at the beginning of the thread, and you will find I have not “ignored
the verses” as you suggest, but the reality is, I have responded more than once to both issues.I also explaind the issue of “came down from heaven” so that has not been ignored.
All of the issues you continue to raise time and again, have already been dealt with time and again.
Perhaps it is a reflection on my inability to explain fully.
(P)
Quote 1) God placed his word above his name for a reason. “…thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.”[Psa 138:2] (M) We've already discussed this Paladin. There is nothing above the Name of YHWH. Read the LXX translation of this Psalm and tell me what it says. Because apparently you didn't believe me when I showed you.
Psa138:2 “I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth:for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.” [Psa 138:2]
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,03:24)
There is no way this “new name” could possibly have been in use prior to 69 a.d., at which time John tells us it is new; of new quality; unused, etc.(M) A very good reason for “Word of God” to NOT be the new name Jesus has been given.
Really! You see a “new, unused, unfamiliar” name as a reason it could not be a “new” name? Well, that does explain a little.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,03:24)
Jesus was given a name which no man had come to understand through experience; because it was new, not previously experienced, unused.(M) And John was a man. Therefore if no MAN knew it, then John didn't know it. Therefore, “Word of God” can't be that new name. And “ouden” means “no one” or “nothing”. It comes from the word “oude” which means “not” and the word “heis” which means “one”.
And you haven't answered my question. How is it that you've picked only one of the three names mentioned in Rev 19 and have decided that particular one is the name that “no one knows but he himself”?[/quote]
Oh, but I did answer your question. You weren't listening.
I will try again, but with different enticement, so maybe it will
become clear.Your reference to “no man knowing” is according to the use of “ginosko” knowledge, but John does not use “ginosko” here, he uses “oiden” which is a reference to knowledge gained through experience, so John is saying no one knew it because it was beyond their experience. Could it be because it hadn't happened yet? The reason Jesus experienced it is because he was the heart of the logos concpet.
(M)Quote And don't say you answered it in your post. Oooops!
(M)
Quote Because I waded through that huge posts and found no answer to my simple question. I only found your imagination in overdrive. Are you hearing me correctly? I'm asking: Since “the Word of God” is only one of the three names of Jesus mentioned in Rev 19 that we DO KNOW, why would you zero in on only that one of three names, and decide that it is the “name no one knows”, especially considering we DO KNOW IT?
Do you get it? We all know “Faithful and True”, so that can't possibly be the name that no one knows but Jesus. We all know “Word of God”, so that can't be the name that no one knows but Jesus. We all know “King of kings and Lord of lords”, so that can't be the name that no one knows but Jesus.
And even if you wanted to twist the scripture to say “a name no one knows but he himself…………..UNTIL RIGHT NOW”, you still must explain why “the Word of God” is the one name out of the three mentioned that you chose to be this “new name”. Why not the other two?
Lighten up Mike, that drill sergeant stuff looks silly on you. I've already done my military stuff, so save it for someone you can influence with it.
As for your bad manners “even if you wanted to twist the scriptures…” is an insult. Grow up.
To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 24 2011,19:42) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,01:08) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,21:06) Actually, dear sister, there are much more than forty verses that are used to prove that Jesus pre-existed his existence, but that doesn't mean that is what they teach. it simply means that is what they are used for. (Irene)
Quote
There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth.
Peace and Love Irene
No my friend you are ignoring those Scriptures, and I don't know for the world why? When Jesus told us that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, you ignore. Why? Just because you think they were put there by the Translators that YOU think they believe in a trinity? When Jesus says He wants the glory He had with His Father before the world was, He is lying?
Jhn 17:5 καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
I can take word by word and see if this is true or false….I have all the Dictionaries I want. From German to Greek and Hebrew.
And when you go on the Internet, they will deny that Jesus existed. Would it not be correct if they believe in the trinity, which most do, they would also believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
Yes, my friend all do that believe in the trinity. The difference is that they don't believe that Jesus had a beginning. The firstborn of all creation. And all those Scriptures YOU will deny. You might as well throw the Bible out, because YOU don't believe in some of those Scriptures….
Dear Brother, maybe YOU should consider believing what Jesus said…….
Peace and Love Irene
Not ignoring, just waiting for your response to my questions, like,
If Jesus was pre-existent,
1) where was he?
2) What was he?
3) Who was he?
Paladin, you asked me these questions and I responded to them….Peace Irene
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 26 2011,03:23) To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
Maybe you should ask Gene that. I have been called of having the Spirit of Anti-Christ more then once. The newest is that I worship Jesus. Which I do not. Just because I believe in the preexisting of Jesus. He also has accused me that I was the one that made several former members got tiles and were banned. I had nothing to do with that. They were abusive towards Mike and I. So t8 gave them tiles, That did not do it either, until they got 5 tiles, and had to leave….I find it so wrong to call others by anything, no matter what they believe. I have appreciated you, because even though you don't agree with me, you are always nice…….I thank you for that..
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Baker @ Mar. 26 2011,03:58) [/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote:To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
(Irene)
Quote
Maybe you should ask Gene that.Dear sister, is he not included in – “To all who claim to be saints, greetings.”
Quote Peace and Love Irene And grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine…
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 26 2011,06:44) Quote (Baker @ Mar. 26 2011,03:58) [/quote] Paladin,Mar. wrote:To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
(Irene)
Quote
Maybe you should ask Gene that.Dear sister, is he not included in – “To all who claim to be saints, greetings.”
Quote Peace and Love Irene And grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine…
Yes, I know ……..Hopefully all will go to normal……but I can't count on that….One day we all will know what Jesus was……Until then take care….
Peace and love to you and yous IreneHi Paladin,
Quote I am not familiar with the issues you raised such as “anointing at Jesus' birth.”
Right. The moment of birth is a hotly debated issue by humanity. I should have said “The moment of conception” or “The moment he was conceived”. This is the moment he was annointed not in prophesy, but, in physicality, explained by.Quote Luke 1:35 (King James Version) 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Matthew 1:20 (King James Version)
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Quote
Now, since the word being used here is that. Not a personal pronoun. This leads me to think that the angel is referring to The Logos of God.
Now when I use my new Interlineal Scripture Analyzer program to suss out(inspect) the Greek used for this translation I get.
[QOUTE] gar en autE gennEthen ek pneumatos estin hagiou
for in her being-generated out OF-spirit is holy
Did not Jesus say “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.” This not to say we shouldn't take loving care of out bodies. The are, after, the vessels of our spirit and soul while we live in this world. It's a biological fact that taking care of our bodies is a good thing.
As to the baptism of Jesus by John, I submit is was an event of manifesting in physical reality the authority given Jesus from God to be witnessed by those attending. Also, to fulfill all righteousness one need to repent or regret to receive blessings from God. I don't feel a need to illustrate this further, everyone who reads this post has received blessings at one time or another.
As to the transfiguration this was another authority-based event for those who witnessed it to share with us at a later time. For us the time is now.[/QUOTE]I think they both were anointed before being born, but would be hard-pressed to locate the verses that lead me to believe it.
If you equate or harmonize reception of a dose of The Holy Spirit or going on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, or filled with the Holy Spiret even from birth a 'type' of annointing this is in the books of Luke, Matthew. First chapters of both.
With Love and Respect,
WispringQuote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,21:23) To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
You sound like little Tim from Scrouge.Seriously the scriptures are not about brain storming as a group but supplication to the one and only Author.
Hi, i'm short of time and things right now but can someone please tell me, who is who here? Gene I know, but do Paladin and Wispring also believe Jesus was a Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, but didn't pre-exist untill then?
Thanks.
I havent read this thread but may at a later date.
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 26 2011,11:16) Hi, i'm short of time and things right now but can someone please tell me, who is who here? Gene I know, but do Paladin and Wispring also believe Jesus was a Man who was filled with the Holy Spirit, but didn't pre-exist untill then? Thanks.
I havent read this thread but may at a later date.
Hi! Yes, Paladin does not believe in the preexisting. I am not 100% sure what Wispring believes. I think He goes along with Paladin…..Peace IreneQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 26 2011,11:12) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 25 2011,21:23) To all who claim to be saints, greetings.
Is there some reason we cannot see the image of God in each other?Do you know of a verse that says “if your brother disagrees with you over doctrine, he begins to fade as God's image?”
Dear brethren and sisters – if we cannot discuss eternal things, without rancor and heat, why are we on the board? Have we all reached that place in discussing eternal things, that we can only express ourselves in temporal language?
Forgive me brothers, even as I forgive you. And God help us all, every one.
You sound like little Tim from Scrouge.Seriously the scriptures are not about brain storming as a group but supplication to the one and only Author.
SF Do you even know what this is all about? You need to read a couple of pages backwards all of them to see why Paladin said what he did. You are out of line….IreneI Irene and Karmarie,
In response to both your queries I will repost:Quote Hi Paladin,
He still is our older brother. I knew if I posted “much like” would tell “How not like” to illustrate the contrast and sharpen the picture. Thank you. Just to share, without all the scriptural knowledge this was and is how I understand things in this matter and have for a few years. You are the first person I have ever encountered in life who shares this view. I couldn't defend this view scripturally or logically it was intuitive. Therefore, thanks for giving me education. I will continue using this thread as a learning tool regarding this issue.With Love and Respect,
Wispring
This is from a few pages back in this thread.With Love and Respect,
WispringOK. Thanks Irene and Wispring.
I find it interesting that from what I have seen on this forum over the years, there seems to be a difference in the two different sides behaviour etc. Interesting that.
Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 26 2011,10:28)
Hi Paladin,Quote I am not familiar with the issues you raised such as “anointing at Jesus' birth.”
Right. The moment of birth is a hotly debated issue by humanity.[/quote]I am not denying it, I am saying I am not familiar with any “anointing” at that moment.
Quote I should have said “The moment of conception” or “The moment he was conceived”. This is the moment he was annointed not in prophesy, but, in physicality, explained by. Luke 1:35 (King James Version)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Quote Matthew 1:20 (King James Version) 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Quote
Now, since the word being used here is that. Not a personal pronoun. This leads me to think that the angel is referring to The Logos of God.Hmmm! I don't thinks so. Look at “This is that Moses, which…”[Acts 7:37] where Moses is introduced by a definite article. It is a definite article used in Mat 1:20 to introduce
“that holy thing…”Quote Now when I use my new Interlineal Scripture Analyzer program to suss out(inspect) the Greek used for this translation I get. gar en autE gennEthen ek pneumatos estin hagiou
for in her being-generated out OF-spirit is holyIt should have begun one word earlier – “to gar en autee…”
to = definite article nominative neuter singular
to = “the; this, that;”Quote Did not Jesus say “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.” No, it was paul who said “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” [II Cor 3:6] He was talking about the difference between living thelife in the spirit or memorizing scripture, “the letter.” Which one makes the better Christian?
Quote This not to say we shouldn't take loving care of out bodies. The are, after, the vessels of our spirit and soul while we live in this world. It's a biological fact that taking care of our bodies is a good thing.
As to the baptism of Jesus by John, I submit is was an event of manifesting in physical reality the authority given Jesus from God to be witnessed by those attending. Also, to fulfill all righteousness one need to repent or regret to receive blessings from God. I don't feel a need to illustrate this further, everyone who reads this post has received blessings at one time or another.
As to the transfiguration this was another authority-based event for those who witnessed it to share with us at a later time. For us the time is now.I think they both were anointed before being born, but would be hard-pressed to locate the verses that lead me to believe it.
Quote
If you equate or harmonize reception of a dose of The Holy Spirit or going on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, or filled with the Holy Spiret even from birth a 'type' of annointing this is in the books of Luke, Matthew. First chapters of both.With Love and Respect, Wispring
Grace and hope to you and yours from me and mine
Hi Paladin,
I was reading my NIV.Quote John 6:63 (New International Version, ©2011)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[a] and life.
you would be more familiar with:John 6:63 (King James Version)
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Love and Respect,
WispringHi Paladin,
This what I am thinking conceptually. Jesus was the personification of the Logos of God. Every word recorded in the scripture to be of Jesus was of the Logos which is of God. Kind of like a 3 station direct communication link.
Love and Respect,
WispringHi Paladin,
Quote Luke 1:35 (King James Version) 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Quote Matthew 1:20 (King James Version) 20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
What I am curious about here is why is Jesus referred and a “thing” or “that”?With Love and Respect,
WispringHi Paladin,
I have worked as a radar operator, radio-communications operator, computer operator/programmer as professions in my life I have a tendency to use the terminology from these experiences in my manner of speech. I am unused to using bible-based terminology. Bear with me as I learn.Love and Respect,
Wispring
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