Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,01:08)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,21:06)

Actually, dear sister, there are much more than forty verses that are used to prove that Jesus pre-existed his existence, but that doesn't mean that is what they teach. it simply means that is what they are used for.

(Irene)

Quote

There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth.
Peace and Love Irene

No my friend you are ignoring those Scriptures, and I don't know for the world why? When Jesus told us that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father, you ignore. Why? Just because you think they were put there by the Translators that YOU think they believe in a trinity? When Jesus says He wants the glory He had with His Father before the world was, He is lying?
Jhn 17:5 καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί
I can take word by word and see if this is true or false….I have all the Dictionaries I want. From German to Greek and Hebrew.
And when you go on the Internet, they will deny that Jesus existed. Would it not be correct if they believe in the trinity, which most do, they would also believe in the preexisting of Jesus?
Yes, my friend all do that believe in the trinity. The difference is that they don't believe that Jesus had a beginning. The firstborn of all creation. And all those Scriptures YOU will deny. You might as well throw the Bible out, because YOU don't believe in some of those Scriptures….
Dear Brother, maybe YOU should consider believing what Jesus said…….
Peace and Love Irene

Not ignoring, just waiting for your response to my questions, like,
If Jesus was pre-existent,
1) where was he?
2) What was he?
3) Who was he?

March 24, 2011 at 8:45 am#240315

Wispring

Participant

Hi Paladin,
Am I understanding you properly when I say that you believe Jesus Christ was a man much like you and me who was blessed with the Holy Spirit from God to unlimited degree to fulfill prophesy and bring the world to a new eath and new heaven or new level of spiritual realization or new age? That the living and spiritual practices that Jesus taught were there to set the new order of things as it were, and to begin the fulfillment of the prayer “on earth as it is in heaven”. To show that all men have the oppurtuning to live the “Way” and have eternal life as a reward?

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

March 24, 2011 at 9:52 am#240327

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 24 2011,19:45)

Hi Paladin,
Am I understanding you properly when I say that you believe Jesus Christ was a man much like you and me who was blessed with the Holy Spirit from God to unlimited degree to fulfill prophesy and bring the world to a new earth and new heaven or new level of spiritual realization or new age? That the living and spiritual practices that Jesus taught were there to set the new order of things as it were, and to begin the fulfillment of the prayer “on earth as it is in heaven”. To show that all men have the oppurtuning to live the “Way” and have eternal life as a reward?

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Very Close my friend. Jesus was “tempted in every point like as we, yet without sin.” So Jesus was different in this way.

Jesus was begotten of the spirit; different in this way.

Jesus was “made of a woman” similar to Eve made from Adam's rib; different in that we were conceived of man/woman union and born of woman.

Jesus was resurrected from dead; different from all men in that they wait the judgment for this.

Jesus was my older brother; different from all younger siblings in this regard.

Jesus knew the scriptures better than any man; different in this regard.

Jesus had courage beyond normal men.

Jesus had faith beyond normal men.

Jesus had compassion beyond normal men.

Jesus had an acute sense of mission, beyond normal men.

To say Jesus was a man like all others is to say “I don't know this man at all.”

Otherwise, you have a pretty good grasp of my understanding.
And I think you have a pretty good grasp on who and what Jesus is.

March 24, 2011 at 10:27 am#240333

Wispring

Participant

Hi Paladin,
He still is our older brother. I knew if I posted “much like” would tell “How not like” to illustrate the contrast and sharpen the picture. Thank you. Just to share, without all the scriptural knowledge this was and is how I understand things in this matter and have for a few years. You are the first person I have ever encountered in life who shares this view. I couldn't defend this view scripturally or logically it was intuitive. Therefore, thanks for giving me education. I will continue using this thread as a learning tool regarding this issue.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

March 24, 2011 at 2:08 pm#240341

Participant

To All……….WE must not separated Jesus from our (EXACT) Identity, that is an error IMO, Because the Spirit that was (IN) Christ Jesus can be equally in ALL> to present Jesus as different can become an error, because it tends to remove him from us identifying with him in human human terms. WE are told “Until we come unto the (FULL) Stature and Measure of Christ (the anointed) Jesus”. Jesus was born an ordinary Man a 100% human being, and then endowed with Holy Spirit at the Jordan river “Thou art my son this day i have begotten you” GOD Said to HIM. Some times we can Get the Word CHRIST as meaning the PERSON JESUS when it means the CHRISTOS or ANOINTING of GOD That was ON Jesus. Remember Jesus is the FIRST BORN of MANY Brethern, He is not the ONLY one that will be Born, His is no different from his Brethern in any way Except he is the (FIRST) to achieve this Goal GOD has for us ALL to Achieve. IMO

Caution we should not alienate Jesus from our Identity in anyway IMO, Except in authority given him by GOD the FATHER, WE can Make him the object of our Worship in place of GOD the Father and enter into Idolatry by this. Remember it say we are to bow to Jesus “TO THE GLORY OF GOD” Not to the Glory of Jesus. Jesus is and was a Work of GOD in MAN, through the CHRISTOS or Anointing of the One and ONLY Living GOD. Shifting that Glory of GOD to the MAN Jesus can amount to a form of IDOLATRY , like worshiping the WORK (Jesus) instead of the WORKER IN HIM (GOD). The son of MAN can do Nothing HIMSELF, the Father (in) him does the WORKS”, Jesus is GOD'S workmanship, Not Jesus' workmanship Just as Paul says we are (HIS) Workmanship CREATED UNTO GOOD WORKS. We should not mix up the Word CHRISTOS with the MAN JESUS ON WHO THE CHRISTOS OR ANOINTING WAS , IMO.

peace and love to you all……………………………………….gene

March 24, 2011 at 2:31 pm#240342

Participant

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 24 2011,19:42)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,01:08)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 23 2011,21:06)

(Irene)

Quote

There are over 40 scriptures that show us that Jesus existed way before His birth on earth.
Peace and Love Irene

Not ignoring, just waiting for your response to my questions, like,
If Jesus was pre-existent,
1) where was he?
2) What was he?
3) Who was he?

Paladin!

Question # 1 Jesus said this

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He was in Heaven before His Birth on earth.

2 Question

Since in Heaven God lives, He is Spirit, and only a Spirit could live there also. So Jesus was Spirit like His Father is.

3 question

Who was He, already answered that with the second Question. He was and is Almighty God's literal Son. He came forth from God. Not out of the dust of the earth.

Jesus came from Heaven to do His Fathers will not His own. Almighty God loved so the world that He send SEND His only begotten Son, that soever believed, believed on Him, will not perish, will not perish, but have everlasting life. God so loved the world…..One of my favorite Songs…..And Scriptual….

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Any other questions??

Peace and Love Irene

March 24, 2011 at 3:00 pm#240348

Participant

Irene………….It is Obvious here that you WORSHIP Jesus as YOUR GOD or DEMIGOD, you do not think you are truly identified WITH HIM in any form by your words Here. You have moved Jesus away from Yourself and made HIm the object of your WORSHIP> And this blinds your eyes from seeing the Truth IMO>

gene

March 24, 2011 at 4:49 pm#240360

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 25 2011,09:00)

gene

Irene show you that Christ did not do anything from his own will ,

so I do not know why you would say that she takes Christ for a god ´

Pierre

March 24, 2011 at 7:12 pm#240370

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 25 2011,03:49)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 25 2011,09:00)

gene

Irene show you that Christ did not do anything from his own will ,

so I do not know why you would say that she takes Christ for a god ´

Pierre

Hi Pierre! You are 100% right, I only worship Almighty God. Jesus is our Savior and I go through Jesus to ask God to forgive my Sins. Not that I sin on a regular basis, but sometimes when I get angry at Gene, because of his lack of understanding, I do…..He loves to call members names, and that is what I dislike about him so much.
Jesus is the only one that never sinned, and gene wants to make him less then what Jesus really is, THE SON OF GOD. Not like us Humans who have fallen short of the glory of God. He had a glory with Almighty God before the world was, which Gene ignores. so sad……..I am happy that YOU understand though….YOU see the Truth in those Scriptures, and that makes me and God happy……
But God loves us all in spite of our shortcomings. The Song and Scripture says it so well. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that soever believeth, believeth in Him, will not perish, will not perish, but have everlasting life. GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD……..

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I want to add one more point in this lovely Scripture, that John wrote. Who by the way was His half Brother. He says that He send Him. Again He said that He Jesus came from Heaven, He was send here by our Heavenly Father, to die for all of us…..how clearer could it get…..

Peace and Love to you and yours, Irene

March 25, 2011 at 3:10 am#240415

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,08:31)

Any other questions??

Good answers, one and all Irene.

mike

March 25, 2011 at 3:18 am#240417

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,13:12)

Again He said that He Jesus came from Heaven, He was send here by our Heavenly Father, to die for all of us…..how clearer could it get…..

I can't believe Gene even said what he just did to you, Irene. How could anyone come to the understanding that you to worship Jesus from anything you've ever posted?

OH…………….THAT'S RIGHT! We're talking about GENE! He has the same comprehension problems when it comes to scripture, too.

Jesus was SENT from heaven, but not only that. He was already God's SON when he was sent, for it says so.

When Jesus was explaining that he was the bread of life, sent from heaven, then Jews wondered: “Isn't this the son of Joseph the carpenter? How is it that he says he came from heaven?” They apparently understood what Jesus was clearly telling them. They didn't fully understand the teaching, but they clearly understood that he was claiming he was sent DOWN from heaven.

mike

March 25, 2011 at 5:41 am#240434

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2011,14:18)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,13:12)

Again He said that He Jesus came from Heaven, He was send here by our Heavenly Father, to die for all of us…..how clearer could it get…..

I can't believe Gene even said what he just did to you, Irene. How could anyone come to the understanding that you to worship Jesus from anything you've ever posted?

OH…………….THAT'S RIGHT! We're talking about GENE! He has the same comprehension problems when it comes to scripture, too.

Jesus was SENT from heaven, but not only that. He was already God's SON when he was sent, for it says so.

mike

Thank you Mike! And your right, Jrsus was already God's Son, before He came down from Heaven…. Anybody with faith like a Mustard seed, can understand when a Scriptures is that plainly written that John presented….
And I am still amazed at Gene's intellect, which is 0…
Thank God for members like YOU and PIERRE…….
Peace and Love Irene

March 25, 2011 at 6:31 am#240445

Participant

MIke, Irene, Pierre,…………..> it is absolutely obvious you people understood nothing of what I or Paladin or Wisering or Martian, Marty, Chosenone , Adam, Kajion, Not3in1, Jodi ,and so many others who passed through here has said over the years. Irene say I call Her names (please tell me one name i called He or you or anyone else here. If i say you are Preexistences (is that calling you names) If i say that teaching separates us for Jesus exact identity (is that false ) and if a say that is the spirit (intellect) of an Antichrist is that a false statement. No if anyone one a name caller and Belittler of People here it is you three with you insulting word and stupid Icons you plaster all over you ignorant posts. So you not only falsely accuse people but you also insult them and Irene even if my “INTELLECT IS “0” in you eyes i would expect nothing else from you as you have done this to some many before as i have noticed over the years and even driven them off the site by you insults. Your words are Proud and arrogant and lack true understanding in my opinion, just as you two cohorts do also. But time will tell how far God will allow you to go and if Jesus will except what you say. That i am sure of> IMO

peace and love………………………………..gene

March 25, 2011 at 6:40 am#240446

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2011,14:18)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 24 2011,13:12)

Again He said that He Jesus came from Heaven, He was send here by our Heavenly Father, to die for all of us…..how clearer could it get…..

I can't believe Gene even said what he just did to you, Irene. How could anyone come to the understanding that you to worship Jesus from anything you've ever posted?

OH…………….THAT'S RIGHT! We're talking about GENE! He has the same comprehension problems when it comes to scripture, too.

Jesus was SENT from heaven, but not only that. He was already God's SON when he was sent, for it says so.

mike

Mike…………..Your belittlement only shows your real self doesn't it? you want us to think you understand what in fact you have no idea what your are saying and are completely oblivious to the true Word of Scripture so you use accusation and belittlement and stupid icons to try to make yourself appear here as if you know what you are talking about. As i said before T8 really made a bad choice in using you as a monitor in place of Mick, who at lest has some true scriptural understand. A Novice made a Monitor will only get Puffed up as you have and start attacking and demeaning People as you have every sense you have been here if other disagree with your screwed up view points. IMO

gene

March 25, 2011 at 7:45 am#240452

Wispring

Participant

Hi Gene,
Shower that adversarial spirit with some of Gods' love son of God! You know what I am talking about here mon frere. Water on the back…right? Even the brightest light cannot be seen if one is wearing blinds.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

March 25, 2011 at 8:15 am#240459

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 25 2011,17:31)

peace and love………………………………..gene

yes, Gene when you make a statement that I have the Spirit of Anti-Christ is calling someone that name. And not true. You also calling John that, because He is the one who wrote those Scriptures too… That I have again you..,…And you have done that more then once. I present Scriptures, and You interpret those Scriptures YOUR way, and not the way they are written…. And I don't care how many do not believe in it, they are mere men, I don't go by mere men. I go by Scriptures the way they are written, and you don't…….The road to the Kingdom is steep and few will find it….. If we are the few, great……I am getting mighty tired of you accusing me of driving others of this site. They did it all by themselves…..I had little to do with their abuse. t8 gave them tiles first, and they did not care, and kept it up, until they had 5 tiles, and out the door they had to go… And you have the nerve to defend their abuse. That shows really what kind of personality you have….And you are saying I have the Spirit of Anti-Christ? I know what Christ is and was. He is and never was a mere man, which you say He was. I think maybe you should be concerned what Jesus will say to YOU….And the new thing you said that I worship Jesus….
That is so crazy, it makes me wonder ….but then I cionsider who said it…..You have a nice Day….

March 25, 2011 at 2:58 pm#240482

Participant

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 23 2011,23:19)

Hi Paladin,
Could you talk about the anointing of Jesus by the Holy Spirit at birth, from John, then perhaps again at the transfiguration? Where these levels of anointing or stages of the annointing process or something else. I cannot understand the need for 3 anointings. Maybe that is just how things went and there is no teaching in in it… I don't know. Thanks. I know it is not appropriate for this thread. If the answere is short and sweet a pm would work.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

Hello Wispering, my friend.

I have been studying your questions, and trying to make them mesh with what I know scripture to teach.

I am not familiar with the issues you raised such as “anointing at Jesus' birth.”

so, I decided to quit trying to trace out specific questions and just lay out what I do know.

“Anointed” is not a new concept, but actually is referenced in the early part of the old testament, concerning the priests of God. They were all “Xristos,” (anointed)

Later, kings would be “kurios and xristos;” Greek = “Lord and Christ.” Most folks do not know of this and argue when I point it out, but it will not change the facts. They were anointed for life, and their anointing lasted till they died, at which time a new king would be anointed, also for life.

The only excption of which I am aware, was when Davidwas very old, his son Solomon was anointed and became king in his stead, prior to David's death.

Anointed kings were the only people allowed to slay another anointed king with anything like impunity. They were understood by most civilizations, to be anointed of God, therefore, not subject to the hands of common men. Kings could slay kings in combat, but otherwise, they were not to be considered common fodder for an enemy army to kill.

“Messiah” was the first instance of an anointing by prophecy, as the word means “the anointed one.” And it is a reference to one who is to be anointed of God from his beginning, and well beyond his lifetime, even into eternity, as “a preist forever after the order of Melchizedec.”

That is why, after raising Jesus from the dead, God “made him both Lord and Christ” – because his offices ended with his death, but God had prophesied about the Melchizedec priesthood, and it was necessary to renew the anointing for that reason.

I am not aware of any anointing at his birth, as he was born to the office, and may well have received his anointing prior to being born. I reference Elizabeth's babe, while still in the womb, leaping for joy, at the announcement of Mary's pregnancy with the baby Jesus. I cannot picture John being anointed and Jesus not. I think they both were anointed before being born, but would be hard-pressed to locate the verses that lead me to believe it.

And I know of no anointing at the transfiguration. Most of my study has been elsewhere, so it may just be something I have missed, but I cannot find anything on it so maybe there is not anything to find. If you know of something, post it and I will look at it.

You reference “three anointing” but I do not see it. Perhaps you are seeing three accounts of the same anointing? I don't know.

One thing I do know, God anoints; men are anointed. God is not anointed. (Is that three things?) God anointed Jesus to preach the gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, free the captives, and a host of other things as he introduced the Hebrew nation to the God of the covenant of Abraham. They were so enmeshed in the law of Moses, which was no part of the Abrahamic covenant, that they forgot the covenant with Abraham, which is what both testaments are about. And anointing is an integral part of both testaments through the one covenant.

Hope this helps you with understanding the “anointing” issue.

March 25, 2011 at 3:04 pm#240483

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2011,22:18)

OH…………….THAT'S RIGHT! We're talking about GENE! He has the same comprehension problems when it comes to scripture, too.

Mike

I don't agree with Gene in most things and he ticks me off at times.

But you are a so-called Moderator, so why do you run around this sight belittling others and constantly puking ad hominems at others that disagree with you?

March 25, 2011 at 3:25 pm#240488