Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Baker]

Paladin!   The trinity is three persons in one.  A Mystery according to the Catholic Church.  Jesus is not Almighty God, by Jesus own words He said in
Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.  

Jesus also said that He has come from Heaven to do His Fathers will and not His.  Here are a few Scriptures that prove the trinity wrong

Deu 4:35   Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.  

Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

1Cr 8:4   As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.  

1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.  

And my favorite Scripture is rhis
Eph 4:6   One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.  

The trinity is not of God, but of man.  It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian that in the third Century came up with it. And it was Constantine who at issued an edit at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea.  He also changed the Calendar and made all Holy Days into Holidays like Christmas and Easter. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.  What we should keep is Passover… Tertullian was brought up by Pagan parents.  I find it so wrong to start the New Year in the cold of Winter, while Gods starts in the Spring…All of Gods Holy days are listed in Lev.23 there is much more…..

But again we don't believe that Christ Jesus always existed.  He had a beginning.  Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:17 and John 1:1 proves it….Not only that.  Can a Son always exist with Hos Father, He would not be His Son then.  also they claim that The Holy Sprit is a person, then He is the Father of Jesus.  See how wrong that all is….But we can't even tell our Son about this, He gets so angry.  At first we tried, but never again…..The first three centuries were hard on the first Christians. They died a brutal and bloody death. So when Constantine after all that in Ad 321 issued an edit granting all Christians to worship openly, they compromised and went along with them….How God will look at that? There is this Scripture, not that I want to judge, but its there and it fits…
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
 
I want to say something to you about the Jehovah Witnesses.  The have been so nice to us.  We don't belong there, but We do like them.  What I don't like about them, just like the Catholic Church, the W.W. Church of God all believe that their church is the only Church that saves man kind….Worship in Spirit and in Truth, is our motto.  Christ is our head of the Church which right now is only Spiritual.  Once Jesus comes again, He will marry His Bride… We hope to be among them…..
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Paladin……….Many here do not believe in the Trinity, but they believe in the preexistence of Jesus before his berth on earth, they think he was a demigod or Super Angel or some kind of Being, i don't think i have heard them ever elaborate on what kind of Being he was or post any factual scriptures showing any activity of that preexisting Being.

I have tried to explain to them that theirs and the trinitarian teachings are the same as far as Jesus “Preexistence” goes there is no difference in them, except they say Jesus was not a GOD. They fail to see this false preexistence teaching started with the Gnostic's in  Paul and John's day which they tried to keep out of the church, They taught that Jesus was a preexisting Being who was sent from the Pelora of GODS to straighten our this earth and that Jesus was actually a GOD in disguise as a human being.

In the same sense these present day Preexistences believe the same thing even if they don't believe he was a GOD, they still believe he Preexisted as some kind of Sentinel Being  in some kind of form, even though they have never produced any scripture that describe him in any way.

They fail to see Johns point of Antichrist  as being this separation of Jesus from our exact likeness and that the teaching of Preexistence is a (Separatist) teaching, it make him different then the rest of humanity and there by moves Jesus away from our exact identity with him. These false teaching not only separate Jesus from us but even more they destory the very Work of GOD in Humanity, this intellect is what John meant when he said that was the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist.  All who do not believe Jesus came (INTO BEING) at His berth on this earth are Antichrist, Peter said it best IMO Jesus was “FOREORDAINED (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) in our time.”

You mentioned the Word of GOD being in all true Saints and I agree, that is the CHRISTOS (anointing) in us it is this same anointing that was (in) Jesus our Lord. In Revelations it says ( notice) What the “Spirit” is saying unto the Churches , it does not say hear what Jesus is saying unto the churches, The SPIRIT (intellect) of Jesus is the Spirit of the Living GOD and it is (IN) Him Just as it is In his Saints, it is also the “WORD of GOD”, which makes us brother and sister of Jesus. IMO

Want to thank you brother for you more excellent proofs. Maybe it will help some here, I hope so. Would like to know you chronological order of scriptures, you can privately email me here , if you don't want to give it out as a post brother.

peace and love to you and yours., your brother in Christ Jesus………………………………….gene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,14:07)

I stand corrected. I though all who believe in a pre-existent Christ had to be trinitarians. What was Jesus before creation? If you do not believe he was God, where was he standing? If you do believe he was God, how is that not a trinity, or do you eliminate the Holy spirit? I do not know how you can see pre-existent Jesus without seeing trinity. I am open to education.

Lol Paladin,

Those are very Good points.
Its easy to understand Trinity (though im not a trinitarian) or the belief that Jesus is God, or that He is just a Man.

But the Alternative that Mike and Irene would have us believe makes no sense.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

Says who? I am consciously aware of the promises God made before the world began. Are you unconsciously aware that he promised eternal life?

That doesn't answer my question.  Paladin, are you consciously aware of any glory YOU HAD in God's presence before the world existed?  If so, please tell us something about that glory.  (Reminder:  I am not speaking about any PROMISE of glory you might think you've had, but that GLORY ITSELF)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

Why do you suppose John left out of 17:5  “meta tou proswpou sou” [In the presence of you][Psa 16:11]? Could it be because it is only found in the commentaries?

I don't know, why do you suppose the translators of the LXX left it out when they translated Psalm 16:11?  Look Paladin, I'm stuck here.  I don't want to spend my time answering things that have no bearing on the outcome of our discussion.  But at the same time, I don't want you to think you've made some “point” with this unrelated material just because I didn't respond to it.  But from now on, I will only address the things you say that are pertinent to resolving our discussion, okay?

And THIS is what is pertinent:  Jesus used the word “para” twice.  One “para” describes his position BEFORE the world existed, and the other describes the position he is ASKING TO BE IN.

So if the first “para” means “IN GOD'S PRESENCE”, then so does the second.  If the first “para” means “AS A PROPHESIED ABOUT DNA”, then that is the position he is asking to be returned to.  Which one do you think Jesus was asking for?

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

John said “kai ho logos sarx egeneto” [and the word flesh became]. This was deliberately generic so no one would claim ho logos became one particular person, to which none of the commentaries ever pay attention.

Pure nonsense!  How many “particular persons” did the Word become?  How many of them had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father?  How many of them was John unfit to untie the sandal of?  I read where someone already showed you this, but I didn't see where you responded to it:

sarx 1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body 2a) the body of a man

“Sarx” was often used to describe “mankind”.  But just so there's no question about the Word being God's Son who BECAME sarx,

Rom 8:3
For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh(sarx) and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

That again is a commentator's choice, not the reality of scripture.  “Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven” [Mat 6:1] If you check “para” in this verse, you will see that the one praying is not in heaven with the father, but receives gifts “of” the father, and Again in Mat 18:19. Then we find this – “But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, [para] With men this is impossible; but [para] with God all things are possible.” [Mat 19:26]. I don't think the commentators are being forthright with you as to the meaning and application of Greek terminology.

Really?  A verse that says, “otherwise, you have no reward WITH your Father in heaven”, and one that doesn't even compare because the “with” meant there is not a “with” that describes the physical position someone is in?  

Paladin, tell me if the English word “with” carries the same meaning in these following two sentences:

1.  With God, all things are possible.
2.  He was with God in the beginning.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

Why did the saints cleanse themselves? Because the “had” the promises of God.

Please!    Having the PROMISE of glory is a far cry from HAVING GLORY.  Jesus said “the glory I HAD”, not “the PROMISE of the glory that I HAD”.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

So now you accept that Jesus did not exist in pre-history? That is after all, the whole point of this little exercise.

Absolutely!  I accept that the human being we know as Jesus Christ did not exist before he was born of Mary.  So now, tell me what Micah 5:2 means.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

What gives? What are you asking? I have repeatedly told you (“all that pomp”) that when God speaks a thing in promise or prophecy, it is as good as a done deal, or words to that effect. How does that differ from “as though it is already a fact?” [“As good as…” – “as though it is…”]

Then quit with the games.  If Jesus being prophesied about does not mean he LITERALLY BEGAN TO EXIST AT THAT POINT, then what IS your point?

My stand is that Jesus, the human being, began to exist the second he was born of Mary.  And therefore, Micah 5:2 refers to the time when he pre-existed his human life as God's only begotten Son through whom the ages were created.

YOUR stand seemed to be that Jesus actually began to exist in general the minute he was propesied about in Gen 3:15.  And therefore, Micah 5:2 refers to his origin as a DNA passing through generations of human beings.

But now you seem to agree with me about the prophetic way of speaking about future things as if they've already happened, therefore Jesus didn't really begin to EXIST when he was prophesied about.  And that is the correct understanding.  But that leave Micah 5:2 remaining to be addresed by you.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,02:38)

Now, if you think there were mountains and landmarks, and civilizations around when you pre-existant jesus was around, feel free. But do not accuse me of messing with the truth. If you use “ow-lam” to mean “very old” when talking about mountains, etc, then switch to “eternal” or “everlasting” when speaking of Messiah, again, feel free, but do not expect me to remain silent about it.

 Have I said one word about “owlam” meaning “eternity”?  I have debated against this very thing before.  “Owlam” is translated as “aion” in the LXX.  And Jesus tells his disciples he will be with them to the END of “aion”.  Eternity doesn't have an “end”, so “aion” cannot possibly mean “eternity”.

You see Paladin, as you've just written to Irene, YOU have made the mistaken assumption that those of us who believe the scriptures about the pre-existence of Jesus are automatically Trinitarians.  And MANY of your pre-existent arguments are very solid non-trinity facts which I myself have used many times against the Trinitarians on this site.  But they have no place in OUR discussion, for I am not arguing for a trinity Godhead or for the eternal existence of Jesus.

So let's you and I cut to the chase, okay?  Here's where OUR discussion is at right now:

1.  Did Jesus begin to exist as a human being from the moment he was prophesied about, or did he begin to exist as a human being when he was born of Mary?

2.  Do you have anything to refute the fact that Jesus speaks of the glory HE ACTUALLY HAD IN THE PRESENCE OF HIS GOD BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED………besides your imperfect tense arguments that don't end up even changing the end result?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,12:15)

Those are very Good points. Its easy to understand Trinity (though im not a trinitarian) or the belief that Jesus is God, or that He is just a Man. But the Alternative that Mike and Irene would have us believe makes no sense.

Mike and Irene base their understanding on the scriptures themselves.  We don't have to play Greek word games or come up with alternate, abstract teachings to explain the words of Jesus or his disciples.

But don't be shy, Dennison.  Tell Paladin what you DO believe, since you are so eager to offer your opinion about Irene and my “nonsensical alternative”.

For All who might be confused:  Dennison happens to believe that there is no trinity, because Jesus actually IS the Father Himself. That's right, Dennison believes that the Son IS the Father.

Yet I'M the one not making sense!  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,07:54)

Hi Mike! Georg is doing great, at 73…He said thank you for asking…He has gone back to work to help our Daughter out. Next month She will be Graduating from College. Our Nurse. I am very proud of Her. Better later then never. Georg also don't like to debate much. He has studied the Bible like 4 hrs. in a row, and has a good memory, which I lack. I ask Him all the time if I forget where certain Scriptures are. I know that there in the Bible, and use the Concordance too, but find it easier just to ask Georg. I want to tell you that 2 JW come to our Home all the time. The last time, when Georg was sleeping I did not hear the Doorbell, so they got worried that something happened to us. So the next day they came just to check to see if we were fine. The couldn't stay. Georg loves to talk to them. Mostly about Prophesy which He loves…. Take care….Peace and Love Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2011,00:05)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,12:15) Those are very Good points. Its easy to understand Trinity (though im not a trinitarian) or the belief that Jesus is God, or that He is just a Man. But the Alternative that Mike and Irene would have us believe makes no sense. Mike and Irene base their understanding on the scriptures themselves.  We don't have to play Greek word games or come up with alternate, abstract teachings to explain the words of Jesus or his disciples. But don't be shy, Dennison.  Tell Paladin what you DO believe, since you are so eager to offer your opinion about Irene and my “nonsensical alternative”. For All who might be confused:  Dennison happens to believe that there is no trinity, because Jesus actually IS the Father Himself.  That's right, Dennison believes that the Son IS the Father. Yet I'M the one not making sense!   mike

Actually arnt you the one who brings up Elohim and Theos and Messiah as meaning something else than what it suppose to mean??

Actually I believe what Jesus said to philip, that when you see the Son you see the father
Are you stating that Jesus doesnt make any sense???

hmm who to believe, the bible or mikes rantings??

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,13:25)

Actually I believe what Jesus said to philip, that when you see the Son you see the father Are you stating that Jesus doesnt make any sense???

Are YOU stating that Jesus doesn't make any sense when he tells us that no one has seen the Father? (John 6:46)

This is off topic.

mike

[Paladin]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 21 2011,01:23)

Paladin!   The trinity is three persons in one.  A Mystery according to the Catholic Church.  Jesus is not Almighty God, by Jesus own words He said in Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.   Jesus also said that He has come from Heaven to do His Fathers will and not His.  Here are a few Scriptures that prove the trinity wrong Deu 4:35   Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.   Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: 1Cr 8:4   As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.   1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.   And my favorite Scripture is rhis Eph 4:6   One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.   The trinity is not of God, but of man.  It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian that in the third Century came up with it. And it was Constantine who at issued an edit at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea.  He also changed the Calendar and made all Holy Days into Holidays like Christmas and Easter. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.  What we should keep is Passover… Tertullian was brought up by Pagan parents.  I find it so wrong to start the New Year in the cold of Winter, while Gods starts in the Spring…All of Gods Holy days are listed in Lev.23 there is much more….. But again we don't believe that Christ Jesus always existed.  He had a beginning.  Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:17 and John 1:1 proves it….Not only that.  Can a Son always exist with Hos Father, He would not be His Son then.  also they claim that The Holy Sprit is a person, then He is the Father of Jesus.  See how wrong that all is….But we can't even tell our Son about this, He gets so angry.  At first we tried, but never again…..The first three centuries were hard on the first Christians.  They died a brutal and bloody death.  So when Constantine after all that in Ad 321 issued an edit granting all Christians to worship openly, they compromised and went along with them….How God will look at that?  There is this Scripture, not that I want to judge, but its there and it fits… Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.     I want to say something to you about the Jehovah Witnesses.  The have been so nice to us.  We don't belong there, but We do like them.  What I don't like about them, just like the Catholic Church, the W.W. Church of God all believe that their church is the only Church that saves man kind….Worship in Spirit and in Truth, is our motto.  Christ is our head of the Church which right now is only Spiritual.  Once Jesus comes again, He will marry His Bride… We hope to be among them….. Peace and Love Irene

O.K. Dear sister, you have cleared up a couple of things for me, for which I thank you.

Your belief leaves a different set of questions for me now, but it should be remembered, the focus of the thread is the incarnation timing.

Are you saying Jesus pre-existed creation?

If so, where was he?

Who was he?

He couldn't have been the logos of God because that was a new name in 69 a.d. according to John's Apokalypse.

And he couldn't have been “Jesus Christ” because Jesus Christ was begotten of the spirit according to Mat 1:20; and the spirit begets spirit, so he couldn't have been the spirit of Christ prior to his begettal by the spirit.

That eliminates the spirit and the flesh, so what was he?

Where was he?

And who was he?

[Paladin]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 21 2011,02:57)

Paladin……….Many here do not believe in the Trinity, but they believe in the preexistence of Jesus before his berth on earth, they thin he was a demigod or Super Angel or some kind of Being, i don't think i have them ever elaborate on what kind of Being he was or any scriptures showing any activity of that preexisting Being. I have tried to explain to them that theirs and the trinitarian teachings are the same as far as Jesus “Preexistence” goes no difference except they say Jesus was not a GOD. They fail to see this false preexistence teaching started with the Gnostic's in  Paul and John's day which they tried to keep out of the church, They taught that Jesus was a preexisting Being who was sent from the Pelora of GODS to straighten our this earth and that Jesus was actually a GOD in disguise as a human being. In the same sense these present day Preexistences believe the same thing even if they don't believe he was a GOD, they still believe he Preexisted as some kind of Sentinel Being  in some kind of form. They fail to see Johns point of Antichrist  as being this separation of Jesus from our exact likeness and that the teaching of Preexistence is a Separatist teaching, it make him different then the rest of humanity and there by moves Jesus away from our identity with him. These false teaching not only separate Jesus from us but even more they destory the very Work of GOD in Humanity, this intellect is what John meant when he said that was the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist.  All who do not believe Jesus came (INTO BEING) at His berth on this earth are Antichrist, Peter said it best Jesus was “FOREORDAINED (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) in our time.” You mentioned the Word of GOD being in all true Saints and i agree, that is the CHRISTOS (anointing) in us it is this same anointing that was (in) Jesus our Lord. in Revelations it says ( notice) What the “Spirit” is saying unto the Churches , it does not say hear what Jesus is saying unto the churches, The SPIRIT (intellect) of Jesus is the Spirit of the Living GOD and it is (IN) Him Just as it is In his Saints, it is also the “WORD of GOD”, which makes us brother and sister of Jesus. IMO Want to thank you brother for you more excellent proofs. Maybe it will help some here, i hope so. Would like to know you chronological order of scriptures, you can privately email me here , if you don't want to give it out as a post brother. peace and love to you and yours., your brother in Christ Jesus………………………………….gene

10th post page 31 of the thread contains the chronology.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 20 2011,16:36)

He couldn't have been the logos of God because that was a new name in 69 a.d. according to John's Apokalypse.

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
  KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

This passage mentions 4 names in total:
1.  Faithful and True
2.  The Word of God
3.  King of kings and Lord of lords
4.  A name that no one knows but he himself

Paladin, how is it that out of three names we DO know, you pick “Word of God” to be the “NEW NAME” he has been given that no one knows but he himself?

If no one knows this “NEW NAME” but he himself, then no one knows this new name.  That means not even John, who was shown the vision.  Or ANYBODY else.

So apparently, “Word of God” is not this “NEW NAME” that no one knows but he himself, because John and everyone who's ever read Revelation knows this name.  Which means his name “Word of God” could be the oldest of all of his names.  Just because John found out about his name “Word of God” in 69 A.D. doesn't mean he hasn't had that name since before the world existed.

mike

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 21 2011,09:36)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 21 2011,01:23) Paladin!   The trinity is three persons in one.  A Mystery according to the Catholic Church.  Jesus is not Almighty God, by Jesus own words He said in Jhn 14:28   Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.   Jesus also said that He has come from Heaven to do His Fathers will and not His.  Here are a few Scriptures that prove the trinity wrong Deu 4:35   Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.   Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD: 1Cr 8:4   As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.   1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.   And my favorite Scripture is rhis Eph 4:6   One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.   The trinity is not of God, but of man.  It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian that in the third Century came up with it. And it was Constantine who at issued an edit at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea.  He also changed the Calendar and made all Holy Days into Holidays like Christmas and Easter. We don't celebrate Christmas or Easter.  What we should keep is Passover… Tertullian was brought up by Pagan parents.  I find it so wrong to start the New Year in the cold of Winter, while Gods starts in the Spring…All of Gods Holy days are listed in Lev.23 there is much more….. But again we don't believe that Christ Jesus always existed.  He had a beginning.  Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:17 and John 1:1 proves it….Not only that.  Can a Son always exist with Hos Father, He would not be His Son then.  also they claim that The Holy Sprit is a person, then He is the Father of Jesus.  See how wrong that all is….But we can't even tell our Son about this, He gets so angry.  At first we tried, but never again…..The first three centuries were hard on the first Christians.  They died a brutal and bloody death.  So when Constantine after all that in Ad 321 issued an edit granting all Christians to worship openly, they compromised and went along with them….How God will look at that?  There is this Scripture, not that I want to judge, but its there and it fits… Mat 15:9   But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.     I want to say something to you about the Jehovah Witnesses.  The have been so nice to us.  We don't belong there, but We do like them.  What I don't like about them, just like the Catholic Church, the W.W. Church of God all believe that their church is the only Church that saves man kind….Worship in Spirit and in Truth, is our motto.  Christ is our head of the Church which right now is only Spiritual.  Once Jesus comes again, He will marry His Bride… We hope to be among them….. Peace and Love Irene O.K. Dear sister, you have cleared up a couple of things for me, for which I thank you. Your belief leaves a different set of questions for me now, but it should be remembered, the focus of the thread is the incarnation timing. Are you saying Jesus pre-existed creation? If so, where was he? Who was he? He couldn't have been the logos of God because that was a new name in 69 a.d. according to John's Apokalypse. And he couldn't have been “Jesus Christ” because Jesus Christ was begotten of the spirit according to Mat 1:20; and the spirit begets spirit, so he couldn't have been the spirit of Christ prior to his begettal by the spirit. That eliminates the spirit and the flesh, so what was he? Where was he? And who was he?

Paladin!  If it was not Jesus in both John 1;1 and especially Rev. 19:13-16 then who was it, that had a robe on dipped in blood.  And who is called King of Kings and Lord of Lords.  Who will come and strike the nations with the wrath of God.  I don't know any other being then Jesus that fits that description.  You know the notion is that the JW Witness believe in it, and therefore it is not true…… That to me is stupid and ridiculous…..  I believe all Churches have some truth, but not all.  The only thing that I don't like about the JW Witnesses and the Catholic Church and most organized religion is, that they think their Church is only one that has ALL truths.  Mike if you are reading this, tell me if that is not so???  You asked where Jesus was when He preexisted.  He said in John that He came from Heaven.  In several Scriptures that John wrote.  
Mar 6:3   Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.  

I also believe that Jesus told His Brothers or half brothers where He came from.  That is why we have an eye witness….I believe it.. i don't understand that you even asked a question like that.  
I guess you must not believe that He was in Heaven with His Father.  

Jhn 6:32   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.  

Jhn 6:33   For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.  

Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  

Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  

Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  

Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  

Do you believe that Jesus is a Spirit Being now?  Well I do. This is what He asked His Father.

Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

There are so many Scriptures that tells me that Jesus preexisted His Birth on earth, and it is amazing that you and others are still in interpret those Scriptures your way.,….
One day we all will know, until then my friend I am done here…

Peace and Love Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2011,00:35)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,13:25) Actually I believe what Jesus said to philip, that when you see the Son you see the father   Are you stating that Jesus doesnt make any sense??? Are YOU stating that Jesus doesn't make any sense when he tells us that no one has seen the Father?  (John 6:46) This is off topic. mike

Lol so now JEsus is lying?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37)

Mike if you are reading this, tell me if that is not so

Hi Irene,

Before you even wrote the above, I was already thinking, “AMEN” to what you said prior………

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37)

You know the notion is that the JW Witness believe in it, and therefore it is not true…… That to me is stupid and ridiculous…..

 AMEN to that. It seems that everyone is eager to jump on the “let's bash the Jehovah's Witnesses” bandwagon. It's sad really, because they teach scriptural truth………and don't only talk the talk, but also walk the walk. Door to door to door every single day, attempting to make disciples in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  

And I have never seen any proof or evidence that JW's think they're the only ones who will be saved.  They believe and follow the scriptures that tell us what we need to do to be saved, and therefore try to pass that on to others.  But they will willingly admit that they are not the judges, and have no idea who Jesus will judge as fit to present to his God and who he will judge as unfit.

Your other points about who else this “Word” could possibly be are spot on, sister!

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37)

One day we all will know, until then my friend I am done here…

  No you're not!  (And you know it!)  

peace and love to you my friend,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,22:24)

Lol so now JEsus is lying?

You tell me. Jesus is the one who told Nicodemus that no one has ever seen the Father. What do YOU make of that?

mike

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2011,15:31)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37) Mike if you are reading this, tell me if that is not so Hi Irene, Before you even wrote the above, I was already thinking, “AMEN” to what you said prior……… Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37) You know the notion is that the JW Witness believe in it, and therefore it is not true…… That to me is stupid and ridiculous…..  AMEN to that.  It seems that everyone is eager to jump on the “let's bash the Jehovah's Witnesses” bandwagon.  It's sad really, because they teach scriptural truth………and don't only talk the talk, but also walk the walk.  Door to door to door every single day, attempting to make disciples in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.   And I have never seen any proof or evidence that JW's think they're the only ones who will be saved.  They believe and follow the scriptures that tell us what we need to do to be saved, and therefore try to pass that on to others.  But they will willingly admit that they are not the judges, and have no idea who Jesus will judge as fit to present to his God and who he will judge as unfit. Your other points about who else this “Word” could possibly be are spot on, sister! Quote (Baker @ Mar. 20 2011,20:37) One day we all will know, until then my friend I am done here…   No you're not!  (And you know it!)   peace and love to you my friend, mike

Mike! Truth is Truth, and it simple does not matter to us hiow we got to see to that truth. But you are so right if you mention JW most run…. We open the Door to them, and love to talk to them. I never met super people like they are, not in the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church, or the W.W.Church of God…. You could not have said it any better. They not only talk the talk, but walk the walk….To make an extra trip just to see if we were still doing OK…..and we don't even belong to that Church, that is what I call Christians…..Like Jesus…..Amen

Peace and Love Irene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2011,09:38)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 20 2011,22:24) Lol so now JEsus is lying? You tell me.  Jesus is the one who told Nicodemus that no one has ever seen the Father.  What do YOU make of that? mike

Why Would Paul state that Jesus is the only one dwelling in the Light that no man can approach to, nor has seen, nor can see ?

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 21 2011,09:39)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 21 2011,02:57) Paladin……….Many here do not believe in the Trinity, but they believe in the preexistence of Jesus before his berth on earth, they thin he was a demigod or Super Angel or some kind of Being, i don't think i have them ever elaborate on what kind of Being he was or any scriptures showing any activity of that preexisting Being. I have tried to explain to them that theirs and the trinitarian teachings are the same as far as Jesus “Preexistence” goes no difference except they say Jesus was not a GOD. They fail to see this false preexistence teaching started with the Gnostic's in  Paul and John's day which they tried to keep out of the church, They taught that Jesus was a preexisting Being who was sent from the Pelora of GODS to straighten our this earth and that Jesus was actually a GOD in disguise as a human being. In the same sense these present day Preexistences believe the same thing even if they don't believe he was a GOD, they still believe he Preexisted as some kind of Sentinel Being  in some kind of form. They fail to see Johns point of Antichrist  as being this separation of Jesus from our exact likeness and that the teaching of Preexistence is a Separatist teaching, it make him different then the rest of humanity and there by moves Jesus away from our identity with him. These false teaching not only separate Jesus from us but even more they destory the very Work of GOD in Humanity, this intellect is what John meant when he said that was the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist.  All who do not believe Jesus came (INTO BEING) at His berth on this earth are Antichrist, Peter said it best Jesus was “FOREORDAINED (BUT) was Manifested (brought into existence) in our time.” You mentioned the Word of GOD being in all true Saints and i agree, that is the CHRISTOS (anointing) in us it is this same anointing that was (in) Jesus our Lord. in Revelations it says ( notice) What the “Spirit” is saying unto the Churches , it does not say hear what Jesus is saying unto the churches, The SPIRIT (intellect) of Jesus is the Spirit of the Living GOD and it is (IN) Him Just as it is In his Saints, it is also the “WORD of GOD”, which makes us brother and sister of Jesus. IMO Want to thank you brother for you more excellent proofs. Maybe it will help some here, i hope so. Would like to know you chronological order of scriptures, you can privately email me here , if you don't want to give it out as a post brother. peace and love to you and yours., your brother in Christ Jesus………………………………….gene 10th post page 31 of the thread contains the chronology.

Paladin……..Thanks , but i pretty much understand scripture as your are posting them, anyway.

peace and love…………………………….gene

[Wispring]

Hi Paladin,
I have read this entire thread 2 times and am SLOWLY reading it a third time. Please tell me if I am understanding what you are presenting correctly. In summation, that via the spirit of prophesy Jesus Christ was incarnated in Eve first, then personified in Abraham, then manifested via Mary. The scripture that prompted me to have the “pieces fall together” like this is:

Quote

Revelation 19:10 (King James Version) 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The “light came on” for me and I thought “Paladin is explaining things from the perspective of prophesy being fulfilled!”. The scripture that is boldened in the quote was my catalyst.

With Love and Respect,
Wispring

[Paladin]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 22 2011,07:12)

Hi Paladin,   I have read this entire thread 2 times and am SLOWLY reading it a third time. Please tell me if I am understanding what you are presenting correctly. In summation, that via the spirit of prophesy Jesus Christ was incarnated in Eve first, then personified in Abraham, then manifested via Mary. The scripture that prompted me to have the “pieces fall together” like this is: Quote Revelation 19:10 (King James Version) 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.   The “light came on” for me and I thought “Paladin is explaining things from the perspective of prophesy being fulfilled!”. The scripture that is boldened in the quote was my catalyst.                            With Love and Respect,                                    Wispring

Finally. I have finally found a way to say something that is understood by the reader. You are right dead on correct my friend, that is the entire purpose of the thread.

Jesus was not  DNA incarnate in Eve, he was prophetically insinuated into the Abrahamic covenant, and into the Abrahamic line through Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, down through Mary. The whole point is an exercise to show how prophecy puts the lie to the “incarnation” theology, that states pre-existent Jesus was somehow “incarnated” into Mary's womb to be born and become a man.

I have simply pointed out that the timing of any sense of
“incarnation” has to begin with the prophecies that bring him into the focus of our minds. That in itself is a kind of reality, because it has us watching for something which is to follow.

Just as the judgment is very real to me because it is asserted in prophecy. Would those who disagree with me say “Well, I'm not sure about that “judgement” thing because I haven't seen it yet. It's only prophesied, it's not real.

It is real to me, and is something for which I must spend a lifetime in preparation, lest at the last moment, in a moment of such doubt, I slip, and that reward for which I stand firmly in faith, suddenly becomes that reward which was mine but I lost in doubt.

How is that reward not real? I haven't tasted its fruit, nor smelled its flavour, nor yet counted its facets; but it is so real to me that I can cringe at the thought of losing it; yet it is not in my hands till after that judgement that also exists only in prophecy.

Thank you for your questions, my friend, it allows me to expand upon the meaning of prophecy. Perhaps others will see the difference between “it is real” and “it is as though it is real.”

Grace and hope from me and mine to you and yours my friend.

[Author]

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