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Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,20:30) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2011,21:58) Interesting as it is perfect tense to the aorist tense of the first usage.
And since, as you pointed out, “Aorist verbs can be speaking of when the action started, ended, or its totality“, the fact that the second mention is in the perfect tense points to the conclusion that the first mention, although aorist, is defining “its totality“.So the undeniable bottom line of Col 1:16 is that all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus Christ in a “once for all time” action.
There is no way it could speak of the new heavens and earth, for they are still yet to come.
Do you agree?
Mike,I have no verification but hypothetically the first use does sound like an totality aorist and the second use lie a past perfect where main event happened in the past and the effects are still ongoung.
Well, if you have no verification of YOUR hypothesis, then really all you have is your stubborn refusal to accept what is most obviously stated by Paul. And that is that ALL THINGS, including the moon, stars, angels, trees, animals and mankind, were created through Jesus in a past, once for all time action.Besides, even if it did refer to a creation of all things that was still ongoing, it wouldn't eliminate the fact that it also includes all things that have already been created.
This is the truth of that scripture, and we've compiled at least 50 more that back that truth exactly.
Will you finally accept this truth now?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,22:15) Kerwin, I await your response about the phrase “Maker of ALL things” in Eccl 11:5. Does it refer to God only making CERTAIN things just because the “internally consistent teaching” of the chapter is not about the “act of creation”?
Mike,I already answered this question with do not worry or presume what tomorrow brings as what it brings is the work of God. Creation is the work of God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2011,07:02) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,20:30) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2011,21:58) Interesting as it is perfect tense to the aorist tense of the first usage.
And since, as you pointed out, “Aorist verbs can be speaking of when the action started, ended, or its totality“, the fact that the second mention is in the perfect tense points to the conclusion that the first mention, although aorist, is defining “its totality“.So the undeniable bottom line of Col 1:16 is that all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus Christ in a “once for all time” action.
There is no way it could speak of the new heavens and earth, for they are still yet to come.
Do you agree?
Mike,I have no verification but hypothetically the first use does sound like an totality aorist and the second use lie a past perfect where main event happened in the past and the effects are still ongoung.
Well, if you have no verification of YOUR hypothesis, then really all you have is your stubborn refusal to accept what is most obviously stated by Paul. And that is that ALL THINGS, including the moon, stars, angels, trees, animals and mankind, were created through Jesus in a past, once for all time action.Besides, even if it did refer to a creation of all things that was still ongoing, it wouldn't eliminate the fact that it also includes all things that have already been created.
This is the truth of that scripture, and we've compiled at least 50 more that back that truth exactly.
Will you finally accept this truth now?
Mike,I just choose not to be presumptuous and there are simply a vast amount about the Greek language I do not know.
Never the less my hypothesis was in agreement with what you but it has simply not been tested yet.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,06:56) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,16:24) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,00:46) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,12:07) Quote (Paladin @ Oct. 09 2011,20:05) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,23:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2011,06:22) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,07:38) Mike, The whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 8 is concerning food sacrificed to idols, even the clause “all things”. I also know that godly knowledge comes from God through, by, and for Jesus Anointed. Paul was just supplying a tool that his readers could do as Peter instructs them in this passage.
Kerwin, you seem to have a real hangup with the phrase “ALL THINGS”.
In Col 1:16, you think it means “NEW things” for some reason. And in 1 Cor 8:6, you think it means “FOOD things” or “KNOWLEDGE things”. Kerwin, can you give me ANY scriptural or logical reason Paul could not actually mean “ALL things” in 1 Cor 8:6?? Those are the words he wrote, after all.
When God is called the Maker of heaven and earth and EVERYTHING in them, you don't automatically start imagining the word “everything” really means only “NEW things”, or only “FOOD things”, do you?
Mike,The specific meaning of “all things” depends on the topic of conversation among other things; such as whether it spoken in generalities or not.
Are you allowed to use “whether” in this conversion? WoW!I am not allowed to use it because it seems to have changed its meaning when applied to the scripture.
Paladin,
kerwinQuote God has not prevented me from using it and for that grace and others I am glad. looks like you have reach perfection .
Pierre,I have not yet finished the race.
KerwinI do not think that God prevent you of doing anything ,you do that ,the way you make it sound is that God is holding your hand and pulls you here and there so you can not do this or that ,
you mixing Gods will what we all should apply in our live willingly,
so you did not make sense to me their .
Pierre
Pierre,Quote Matthew 11
New International Version (NIV)28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,19:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,22:15) Kerwin, I await your response about the phrase “Maker of ALL things” in Eccl 11:5. Does it refer to God only making CERTAIN things just because the “internally consistent teaching” of the chapter is not about the “act of creation”?
Mike,I already answered this question with do not worry or presume what tomorrow brings as what it brings is the work of God. Creation is the work of God.
That answer makes no sense to me, Kerwin. Could you tell me the straight answer?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,19:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2011,07:02) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,16:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,20:30) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 08 2011,21:58) Interesting as it is perfect tense to the aorist tense of the first usage.
And since, as you pointed out, “Aorist verbs can be speaking of when the action started, ended, or its totality“, the fact that the second mention is in the perfect tense points to the conclusion that the first mention, although aorist, is defining “its totality“.So the undeniable bottom line of Col 1:16 is that all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, had ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus Christ in a “once for all time” action.
There is no way it could speak of the new heavens and earth, for they are still yet to come.
Do you agree?
Mike,I have no verification but hypothetically the first use does sound like an totality aorist and the second use lie a past perfect where main event happened in the past and the effects are still ongoung.
Well, if you have no verification of YOUR hypothesis, then really all you have is your stubborn refusal to accept what is most obviously stated by Paul. And that is that ALL THINGS, including the moon, stars, angels, trees, animals and mankind, were created through Jesus in a past, once for all time action.Besides, even if it did refer to a creation of all things that was still ongoing, it wouldn't eliminate the fact that it also includes all things that have already been created.
This is the truth of that scripture, and we've compiled at least 50 more that back that truth exactly.
Will you finally accept this truth now?
Mike,I just choose not to be presumptuous and there are simply a vast amount about the Greek language I do not know.
Never the less my hypothesis was in agreement with what you but it has simply not been tested yet.
Well, you've been mistakenly presuming that Jesus didn't pre-exist for a long time now. Isn't is about time you start presuming the truth of the matter?Take your agreement with me on Col 1:16, and re-read the scriptures we've posted in the “Pre-existent Scriptural Database” thread in this new light that has been shined on you by God.
Paladin,
Quote Or are you saying that the antecedent is not an antecedent? I am saying that 'spirit' is not the antecedent because the spirit is not a weapon but the sword is and so is the 'word
of God' as we can see when Jesus was tempted by satan in the desert. I found two scholars that know what the general rule is and also both show that there is an exception in this case. Do you offer any scholarship behind what you would like the antecedent to be that specifically speaks to that verse? I found two that specifically speak to that verse and give examples of others.I hope you are having a good day Paladin…I'm praying for you,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2011,07:55) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 09 2011,19:41) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2011,22:15) Kerwin, I await your response about the phrase “Maker of ALL things” in Eccl 11:5. Does it refer to God only making CERTAIN things just because the “internally consistent teaching” of the chapter is not about the “act of creation”?
Mike,I already answered this question with do not worry or presume what tomorrow brings as what it brings is the work of God. Creation is the work of God.
That answer makes no sense to me, Kerwin. Could you tell me the straight answer?
Mike,Just because you fail to understand something does not mean it is not a straight answer.
It was my belief that the relationship is clear as God being the creator has created what was, what is, and what will be. It is he that forms the body that is in its mother's womb. It is he who created the wind and directs its path by his creative force.
Mike,
Quote Take your agreement with me on Col 1:16, and re-read the scriptures we've posted in the “Pre-existent Scriptural Database” thread in this new light that has been shined on you by God. The ideas in these passages is what I considered when I developed the hypothesis that Colossians 1:16 both uses the word creation to mean the entire series of related events and also for an event that occurred in the past with ongoing effects. The ages were also created in one event and are currently ongoing as a series of events dependent on the initial event.
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?Quote Hebrews 9:28
King James Version (KJV)
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.Quote Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,08:53) It was my belief that the relationship is clear as God being the creator has created what was, what is, and what will be.
Very good, Kerwin. I believe we are in agreement once again. So, if “Maker of ALL THINGS” in Eccl 11:5 really MEANS “ALL things” – even though the act of creation is not the “internally consistent teaching” of Eccl 11, then you have no reason to assume that “ALL things” in 1 Cor 8:6 doesn't also refer literally to “ALL things”, right?Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,13:10) The ideas in these passages is what I considered when I developed the hypothesis that Colossians 1:16 both uses the word creation to mean the entire series of related events and also for an event that occurred in the past with ongoing effects. The ages were also created in one event and are currently ongoing as a series of events dependent on the initial event.
That's fine. Just as long as you don't forget that the all things that were created through Jesus in a once for all time action INCLUDE the sun, moon, animals, plants, mankind, angels, etc.Bottom line: If the things of the past WERE created through God's Son, then God's Son had to have existed BEFORE these things were created through him. And the perfect tense of “ktizo” in Col 1:16 PROVES beyond any shadow of a doubt that all things WERE indeed created through God's Son.
Now that it seems you are on board with this scriptural fact, does it make sense that Jesus is the literal firstborn of every creature simply because all other creatures were then created through him?
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,19:50) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,06:56) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,16:24) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 10 2011,00:46) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,12:07) Quote (Paladin @ Oct. 09 2011,20:05) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2011,23:47) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 28 2011,06:22) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2011,07:38) Mike, The whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 8 is concerning food sacrificed to idols, even the clause “all things”. I also know that godly knowledge comes from God through, by, and for Jesus Anointed. Paul was just supplying a tool that his readers could do as Peter instructs them in this passage.
Kerwin, you seem to have a real hangup with the phrase “ALL THINGS”. In Col 1:16, you think it means “NEW things” for some reason. And in 1 Cor 8:6, you think it means “FOOD things” or “KNOWLEDGE things”. Kerwin, can you give me ANY scriptural or logical reason Paul could not actually mean “ALL things” in 1 Cor 8:6?? Those are the words he wrote, after all.
When God is called the Maker of heaven and earth and EVERYTHING in them, you don't automatically start imagining the word “everything” really means only “NEW things”, or only “FOOD things”, do you?
Mike,The specific meaning of “all things” depends on the topic of conversation among other things; such as whether it spoken in generalities or not.
Are you allowed to use “whether” in this conversion? WoW!I am not allowed to use it because it seems to have changed its meaning when applied to the scripture.
Paladin,
kerwinQuote God has not prevented me from using it and for that grace and others I am glad. looks like you have reach perfection .
Pierre,I have not yet finished the race.
KerwinI do not think that God prevent you of doing anything ,you do that ,the way you make it sound is that God is holding your hand and pulls you here and there so you can not do this or that ,
you mixing Gods will what we all should apply in our live willingly,
so you did not make sense to me their .
Pierre
Pierre,Quote Matthew 11
New International Version (NIV)28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
kerwinyou just confirm by those scriptures that what I told you is true,
thank you
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2011,07:12) Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 10 2011,08:53) It was my belief that the relationship is clear as God being the creator has created what was, what is, and what will be.
Very good, Kerwin. I believe we are in agreement once again. So, if “Maker of ALL THINGS” in Eccl 11:5 really MEANS “ALL things” – even though the act of creation is not the “internally consistent teaching” of Eccl 11, then you have no reason to assume that “ALL things” in 1 Cor 8:6 doesn't also refer literally to “ALL things”, right?
Mike,1 Corinthians 8is speaking of the knowledge of God's righteousness and not about his works. It does not even mention creation but instead speaks of the things that are of both Jesus and God.
Ecclesiastes 11 speaks about the works, authority, and a different aspect of the knowledge of God.
Mike,
Quote And the perfect tense of “ktizo” in Col 1:16 PROVES beyond any shadow of a doubt that all things WERE indeed created through God's Son.
The past perfect tense reveals that the subject occurred in the past and that event has ongoing effects. Jesus sacrificed himself that all things in heaven and on earth would be made new and the effect of that creative event is still ongoing and will be ongoing until creation is delivered from its bondage to decay.
Do you believe that?Quote Now that it seems you are on board with this scriptural fact, does it make sense that Jesus is the literal firstborn of every creature simply because all other creatures were then created through him? Scripture states Jesus has supremacy over both creations because of his self sacrifice.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2011,11:09) Mike, 1 Corinthians 8is speaking of the knowledge of God's righteousness and not about his works. It does not even mention creation but instead speaks of the things that are of both Jesus and God.
Ecclesiastes 11 speaks about the works, authority, and a different aspect of the knowledge of God.
Now you're back-peddling, Kerwin. At first, you stated that 1 Cor 8:6 couldn't LITERALLY refer to “ALL things” because “the act of creation” wasn't the “internally consistent teaching” of 1 Cor 8.Then I showed you at least 5 other scriptures where God was said to be the Maker of “ALL things”. On one of them, Eccl 11:5, you agree that it speaks of God LITERALLY making ALL things – even though the act of creation is NOT the internally consistent teaching of Eccl 11.
But now you're going back to your first claim that you yourself proved wrong with Eccl 11:5.
Kerwin, if the internally consistent teaching of 11:5 is NOT the act of creation, yet “Maker of all things” still literally refers to ALL things God has made, then you have no excuse left.
If you agree the truthful answer is “YES” in Eccl 11:5, and 1 Cor 8:6 is the identical situation of 11:5, (in that it is a scripture where the act of creation is NOT the internally consistent teaching), then your insistence of “NO” for 1 Cor 8:6 clearly shows your PERSONAL bias.
mike
Mike,
Kerwin, if the internally consistent teaching of 11:5 is NOT the act of creation, yet “Maker of all things” still literally refers to ALL things God has made, then you have no excuse left.
The creational force is internal teaching of Ecclesiastes 11:5. I have never stated anything else but I instead pointed out why it is.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2011,11:51)
The past perfect tense reveals that the subject occurred in the past and that event has ongoing effects.
Wrong. The perfect tense reveals an act that has ALREADY BEEN completed in a “once for all time” manner. It says NOTHING about a continuing “ripple effect” resulting from that “once for all time” action.Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2011,11:51)
Jesus sacrificed himself that all things in heaven and on earth would be made new and the effect of that creative event is still ongoing and will be ongoing until creation is delivered from its bondage to decay.
The word means “CREATED”, Kerwin. It is YOU who told me that if God wanted to imply “creation”, He would have used the word “ktizo”, right? Well, God DID use “ktizo” in Col 1:16, right?And the perfect tense of “ktizo” doesn't indicate a still ongoing action. Instead, it refers to an action that was completed once for all time, and has since ceased. So if “ALL things”, for some PERSONAL reason, were to imply only NEW things, then it would STILL speak of things that have ALREADY BEEN made new.
Nor, is there ANY scriptural indication whatsoever that non-believing humans or righteous angels have a need to be “made NEW” anyway. And the words “ALL things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible” would INCLUDE non-believing men and righteous angels. So “ALL things” cannot possibly mean “NEW things” in this case.
Also consider that although the heavens and earth WILL BE made new, that future tense does not match the perfect tense of “ktizo” in 1:16. So while the sun, moon and stars are obviously included in the things that will someday BE MADE new, they are likewise included in the “ALL things” that have ALREADY BEEN created through Jesus in a once for all time PAST action.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2011,11:51)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Now that it seems you are on board with this scriptural fact, does it make sense that Jesus is the literal firstborn of every creature simply because all other creatures were then created through him? Scripture states Jesus has supremacy over both creations because of his self sacrifice.
“Firstborn” has the automatic default meaning of “the one born first” everywhere in scripture. And the default meaning is ALWAYS the one meant…………UNLESS………..there is CONTEXT to the contrary.For example, we know from context that David wasn't LITERALLY the firstborn king of the earth.
But where is the context that tells us Jesus isn't LITERALLY the firstborn creature ever to exist?
Just because the “supreme” meaning is always a possibility for “firstborn” doesn't mean we just get to pick and choose when to use that alternate meaning based on our own personal doctrine. There has to be a scriptural reason to divert from the default meaning. And no context in the whole of scripture offers a reason for 1:15 NOT to be saying Jesus was the first creature ever created.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2011,16:49) Mike, The creational force is internal teaching of Ecclesiastes 11:5. I have never stated anything else but I instead pointed out why it is.
Quote The creational force is internal teaching of Ecclesiastes 11:5. I have never stated anything else but I instead pointed out why it is.
Of course it is the teaching of that ONE verse. But is “the act of creation” the “internally consistent teaching” of the WHOLE CHAPTER of Eccl 11? YES or NO?kerwin
Quote Ecclesiastes 11 speaks about the works, authority, and a different aspect of the knowledge of God. Ecc 11:5 As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed in a mother’s womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.where do you see that that verse talks about a different aspect of Gods knowledge
it talks about men not understanding Gods knowledge ,no wander you argue for nothing ,and not read scriptures in truth.and tell me where in scriptures does God tells anyone about how he made his creation ?? so that men would know ?? the only comment we have is that God created all things, in the past and will in the future,
so what Paul and Ecc 11;5 says ALL THINGS ARE CREATED just means what it says ,unless you know better than the prophets and the apostles ,
In Col 1:15 He(JESUS) is the image of the invisible God, the(JESUS) firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him(JESUS) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him(JESUS) and for him.(JESUS)what is it that you do not understand in what it say
is it not the proper English ???ASK A CHILD ABOUT GRADE 3 SEE WHAT HE OR SHE WOULD TELL YOU WHAT IT MEANS ?when it comes to the new creation trough Christ ,we are responsible for the allowing actions of the word of God to do the new creation by obeying the word of God and bring our knowledge to maturity and so become a full mature son of God as Adam was ,but totally obedient.having past the test .
so stop being BIAS
Terricca……………Do you even know what ASPECT Means? to make such an ignorant statement as that. The only ones here that is Biased is you. What Kerwin wrote is absolutely correct that was a ASPECT of GOD KNOWLEDGE> rather you understand it or not>. God is Alone the MAKER of ALL THINGS> rather you like it OR NOT. Jesus created Nothing ever , God “ALONE” and BY “HIMSELF” did it all. As scripture plainly say in many places.
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