Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 14 2011,05:50)

No wonder you are so messed up.

September 14, 2011 at 10:36 pm#258305

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,08:05)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 15 2011,14:44)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 15 2011,06:25)

edj

the trinitarian do not argue with it, they just declare all other views as heretic ,or some go even further declaring Jesus God himself
so that now we have father and son being the same ,

Paladin I think is one of those ,

Pierre

Are you sure you are on the correct thread?

There is no way you could get that from my posts.

Paladin

so you are not a believer in the trinity or the preexisting of Christ

and not believe that Christ is God or the same beings

well if any of those apply to you please clarify what is you believe ,

and sure I will apologize about it to you ,

Pierre

I believe from this latest post, you made an honest mistake. No apology necessary.

I believe God is a singular being singular person God, and that he said so.

I believe God raised up a Jew from among his brethren, to become his prophet, gave him the words he was to speak, [Deu 18:15,18] and performed works through this prophet, [John 14:10] gave him a mission to preach salvation to the Hebrew nation, and raise up twelve assistants whose task was going to begin after his resurrection and ascension, when they would take hismessage beginning at Jerusalem, then to Judaea and Samaria, then to the uttermost parts of the earth.

Jesus existed only in prophecy until such time as he was begotten of the Holy Spirit [Mat 1:20; John 3:6] and made of a woman [Gal 4:4].

Jesus was extolled and made very high [Isa 52:13]; and because of this and other prophecies of promise of glory, endured the cross, even to dying for our sins; [Heb 12:2].

I believe Jesus was declared to be the son of God with power through the resurrection [Rom 1:4]; and that he was
“begotten this day” the day of his resurrection. [Psa 2:7][Acts 13:16-33] And that prior to that time he was the son of God only in prophecy. [II Sam 7:14] because in the old testament God did not acknowledge a son, he acknowledged
“I will be a father to him, he shall be my son.” That is prophetic language.

I believe God has created Gods, of whom he is God over them. “I have said ye are God, unto whom the word of God came.” Jesus quoted this to the Jews. This accounts for how God can be God of Gods, if he is in fact the only true God; we are images made in his image; Gods temporarily in flesh, someday to be loosed from that boundary, to be free with him in heaven.

I do not believe in trinity doctrine; nor pre-existance of Jesus, nor in equality with God for any entity other than He who says he has no equal. Even his son says “My father is greater than I.” Not “was;” Not “will be;” but “is.”

There is no way there can be a plural unity God in a singular person singular being. The very grammar denies the possibility.
Those who make claims to the contrary are not grammarians, they are doctrinaires.

I believe all men owe allegiance to the God of Judeo-Christian scripture. I believe men owe it to their fellowman to try to teach those who do not yet have this knowledge, without rancor, and without belittling those with whom we disagree. We adress the image of God. That must mean something.

I believe that except for the grace of God and the blood of Christ I differ not one whit from my opponents. I am not better than they, not as smart as some, and not holier nor loftier by reason of merit, but am simply a vessel of clay appointed to a duty. And that duty entails both making a studious effor tto learn, and to then share with all men, those things allowed by the Holy Spirit for me to see, with my fellow images of God.

And my sincere brother never owes me apology for some perceived misunderstanding.

September 14, 2011 at 10:49 pm#258307

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Paladin…………….Well said Brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………………gene

September 14, 2011 at 10:54 pm#258309

Pastry

Participant

Paladin! How do you explain the Scriptures I just posted for Kerwin?? Irene

September 15, 2011 at 12:40 am#258342

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 14 2011,16:36)

I believe that except for the grace of God and the blood of Christ I differ not one whit from my opponents.

As in, you have the grace of God and your opponents don't?

I don't really think that's what you meant, Paladin. I just took this opportunity to show everyone how indignant the phrase, “There but for the glory of God go I” sounds from the other side.

Jesus addressed this kind of nonsense in Luke 13:1-5.

September 15, 2011 at 4:24 am#258394

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 15 2011,04:10)

Quote

Quote
KERWIN! This is what your friend said too, and that is what we were also discussing….Jehovah, God the Most High God ALONE, His name ALONE…. I stress ALONE, because of Kathi believing Jehovah is the Compound Unity of Jesus and His Father….

I believe that Jehovah is the one and only true God. I question whether you have been deceived by the evil one as your doctrine is inferring that Jesus is a second true God or that God is just an angel among many other angels; but with the superior rank of the Most High God.

Kerwin! What makes you think that I don't believe that Jehovah is anything else but the Most High
God.??? I never said that… Kathi is the one who believes otherwise….. Jehovah also don't have a physical body, no matter what the case….You need to read slowly….And to point fingers is uncalled for here…. Satan is the deceiver and reading slowly is a must……. Irene

Irene,

I am unsure which of the following two religious tenets are part of your doctrine but they are both flawed.

If you believe that Jesus is the child of God's body and that Jahovah is not one of many gods then you believe there are two Most High God's as the child of ones body is the same species as the sire.

If on the other hand you believe Jesus is the child of God's body and that god is one of many gods but having a superior rank then you believe that God is an angel with the rank of Most High God.

You may not have connected the dots but that is the result of the two theological tenets you seem to be endorsing.

If you have not yet ontained the righteousness that is like God's then you should realize that you are at times decieved by Satan. I am merely stating that Satan has pulled a quick one on you by hiding a poison pill in the teachings you have chosen to believe in. So why be offended that I state Satan has been up to his old tricks and has slipped one by you. Just test your doctrine and see if what I state is true and if it is not tell me why a Son of the Body is not the same species as his sire.

September 15, 2011 at 4:56 am#258396

terraricca

Participant

Paladin

Quote

Ro 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Ro 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Ps 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Ps 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Ps 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Ps 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Ac 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
Ac 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
Ac 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Ac 13:25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
Ac 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Ac 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Ac 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
Ac 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Ac 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:
Ac 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
Ac 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Ac 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Ac 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
2Sa 7:17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

It seems to me that you do not allowed for many other scriptures to be present here and so you are not telling the truth of God ,but your personal truth what is deceiving ;;; because of ;Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

if we compere Col 1 …. to your scriptures that you believe to be NOT supporting preexistence of Christ ,we can see that Paul is very clear of who Christ is and were he came from,

but if we bring all scriptures together that you think would support your view and compere them to the support of preexisting of Christ the son of God what you think would be the outcome

your explanation needs the intervention of men interpretation ,but the preexistence of the son of God does not ,it is in plain words ,in black and white so to speak.

Pierre

September 15, 2011 at 5:20 am#258398

Participant

Paladin,

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You are correct Kerwin, in asserting that Jesus is not the same “species” as God.

I am glad we agree though I seem to have trouble getting Mike or Irene to understand my point that the child of the body of an individual is the same species as the sire.

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The Gen 6 account of the sons of God went in unto the daughters of men and begat a race of …..(ready for this?)
MEN. They were not “Gods” – that would have made them the same species as their fathers, but they were MEN.

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Genesis 6
King James Version (KJV)

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

That is a good catch though some here believe the sons of God were angels while others believe they were the males of the line of Seth; in keeping with Jesus’ words that “angels neither marry nor are given in marriage”.

Quote

Spirit is not a species of man. Nor is flesh specie of God.

It is my suspicion that the soul is of the same species as the body. Support for my suspicion is in the book of Ecclesiastes and reads:

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Ecclesiastes 3:21
King James Version (KJV)

21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The soul in non-corporeal and so is called the spirit in Ecclesiastes 3:21.

Quote

The specie Man has a spirit, but that is because after God created man, (i.e., after man was completed) God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

I agree that each human has a soul that God breathed into the body giving the body life.

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“Living soul” is not the species to which we belong. We are of the species MAN.

I agree once more as a living soul is a soul clothed with a living body and both the human body and human soul together make up an individual that is a member of the human species.

Quote

I am not even sure there is a “species” God, since he is the only one so designated. And species is a plural designation.

I do not believe it matters as the way I used it works figuratively, if not literally, since it is at worst a model of the idea I hope to share.

September 15, 2011 at 7:00 am#258405

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 15 2011,11:40)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 14 2011,16:36)

I believe that except for the grace of God and the blood of Christ I differ not one whit from my opponents.

As in, you have the grace of God and your opponents don't?

I don't really think that's what you meant, Paladin. I just took this opportunity to show everyone how indignant the phrase, “There but for the glory of God go I” sounds from the other side.

Jesus addressed this kind of nonsense in Luke 13:1-5.

When God causes me top have faith, and the athiest does not have faith, the difference is the grace of God. It has nothing to do with doctrine. It has to do with zeal to believe.

God's grace has been poured upon all on this board. He just gives different measures at different times, and only he knows when or how it is applied.

I cannot make claims for myself and deny the same for my opponents. I can only teach what I have been taught and let God sort it all out.

Remember, faith is a gift of God. So no, Mike, I do not say “I have God's grace and my opponents don't. He gives us knowledge at whatever rate he decides we are ready for it, but he gives us grace at whatever rate he is ready for.

Sometimes the vessel into which he pours his grace is clean to begin with, sometimes it must be used for unclean things until it gains an awareness it needs cleansed. God knows how to use all of his vessels, both those carrying his gospel in its purest form, and those who carry only dregs of his message while they learn whatever He has decided we are to learn at any given time.

September 15, 2011 at 9:11 am#258419

Ed J

Participant

Hi Paladin,

And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of
the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed
good to the potter to make it. (Jeremiah 18:4)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

September 15, 2011 at 12:22 pm#258431

Pastry

Participant

Quote

Kerwin! Those that judged will be judged just as well as the one YOU are judging…. I don't believe that Satan is even close to me…. Jehovah God is one, not two or three….

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God; there is none else besides him.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

Satan hates when you point out that there is only ONE TRUE GOD, he on the other hand is called the god of this world…. So maybe YOU need to watch out that YOu don't claim false accusations..

The problem is with You, you don't want to agree with what plain written Scriptures teach us that Jesus was with His Father before the world was….Col. 1:15 He is the firstborn of all creation…. Rev. 3:14 the beginning of the creation of God…. One more time You accuse me of something you did twice now, without proof, YOU owe me an apology. Where did I ever say that God is a trinity? Or any accusation you made….I proof things by given Scriptures, what have YOU done….

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Irene

September 15, 2011 at 10:55 pm#258463

Blocked

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 15 2011,01:00)

So no, Mike, I do not say “I have God's grace and my opponents don't.

Good, Paladin. I didn't really think that's what you meant to say.

Have you given any thought to my last post to you? Have you considered that the scriptures show “lowest parts of the earth” to just mean “earth”, and not “underneath the earth”?

September 15, 2011 at 11:02 pm#258464

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 14 2011,23:20)

I am glad we agree though I seem to have trouble getting Mike or Irene to understand my point that the child of the body of an individual is the same species as the sire.

Kerwin,

In what way are the angels “sons of God”?

September 16, 2011 at 5:21 am#258499

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,05:02)

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 14 2011,23:20)

I am glad we agree though I seem to have trouble getting Mike or Irene to understand my point that the child of the body of an individual is the same species as the sire.

Kerwin,

In what way are the angels “sons of God”?

Mike,

Why is Satan not reffered to as one of the sons of God when he comes with them to the throne of God in the book of Job?

September 16, 2011 at 5:28 am#258500

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 15 2011,18:22)

Quote

Kerwin! Those that judged will be judged just as well as the one YOU are judging…. I don't believe that Satan is even close to me…. Jehovah God is one, not two or three….

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that Jehovah he is God; there is none else besides him.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.

Satan hates when you point out that there is only ONE TRUE GOD, he on the other hand is called the god of this world…. So maybe YOU need to watch out that YOu don't claim false accusations..

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;

Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Irene

Irene,

Our lines of communications are seemingly unclear as you are not understanding what I am writing. I have currently run out of ideas to try in order to attempt to remedy that so I choose to put this conversation on hold until the Spirit of God moves us to address it onece more.

I thank you for your conversation.

September 16, 2011 at 9:02 am#258517

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,09:55)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 15 2011,01:00)

So no, Mike, I do not say “I have God's grace and my opponents don't.

Good, Paladin. I didn't really think that's what you meant to say.

Have you given any thought to my last post to you? Have you considered that the scriptures show “lowest parts of the earth” to just mean “earth”, and not “underneath the earth”?

That's not only not what I meant to say –

That's not what I said.

September 16, 2011 at 10:20 am#258524

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,09:55)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 15 2011,01:00)

So no, Mike, I do not say “I have God's grace and my opponents don't.

Good, Paladin. I didn't really think that's what you meant to say.

Have you given any thought to my last post to you? Have you considered that the scriptures show “lowest parts of the earth” to just mean “earth”, and not “underneath the earth”?

Psalm 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the katwtata (lower) parts of the earth.

Psalm 88:6 Thou hast laid me in the katwtatw (lowest) pit, in darkness, in the deeps.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the katwtatois (lowest) parts of the earth.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the katwtera (lower) parts of the earth?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2011,11:12)

[/quote]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,02:47)

THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE ASCENTION
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.”

I agree.

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 13 2011,02:47)

THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION
9 “Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”

THE TWO EVENTS ARE NOT RELATED IN ONE VERSE OTHER THAN TO POINT OUT IT IS THE SAME PERSON DOING BOTH.

How do you KNOW that, Paladin? Consider these points:

1. John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

What does it mean that he ascended except that he first DESCENDED? Where did Jesus ascend TO? That is also where he descended FROM.

Well that certainly explains Paul's statement That when Christ ascended to heaven, he first descended into the lower parts of the earth.

Jesus descended first into the lower parts of the earth, was raised from the dead, (ascended back to where he was before) was with the disciples forty days and nights, followed by the ascension to heaven.

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2. It is clear to me that you understand “lowest parts of the earth” to mean Hades, or the place that Jesus went when he died. But consider:
Psalm 139:15 NKJV ©
My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Do you also think that King David was skillfully woven together by God in Hades? Of course not.

Please do not ask me a question and then give me your opinion
as to what my answer should be. First you asked me what I think then add your own opiniion “of course not.”

“For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. 15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.”[Psa 139:13-18]

I think King David was “skillfully” made by God from the same earth Adam was. David was not contrasting his creation as a possible “made in heaven” – he was considering how marvelous it was for him to be made from the earth's most basic element “the lowest parts of the earth.”

David reflected upon his own “self” and concluded “I am fearfully and wonderfully made.”

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John 6:62 NIV
What if you [see] the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

John 6:62 What and if ye shall thewreete (see) the Son of man ascend up where he was before? [subjunctive present active 2nd pl verb]

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that itis I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye thewreite (see) me have.[thewreite (thewrew) ind pres act 2nd pl verb]

The only difference between the two words is one is Jn 6:62 is subjunctive and Lk 24:39 is indicative.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they blepontwn (beheld) he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
blepontwn = present active genitive masculine plural form of the verb participle “blepw.”

On the other hand, those who saw his ascension, did so through the Greek word “blepo” which we have discussed before. The ascension to heaven does not respond to John 6:62. The disciples seeing his resurrected body, does.

September 16, 2011 at 7:02 pm#258575

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Paladin…………..Need you help , go over on the Kingdom of GOD thread and give David and us the Greek translation where it says the Kingdom of God is within you . Would appreciate the help brother thanks.

peace and love to you and yours……………………………………..gene

September 16, 2011 at 8:22 pm#258581