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Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 16 2011,05:21) To all and especially Paladin,
I came to this thread to learn from Paladin. I have no desire engage in any scriptural-based debate in this thread and will steadfastly refuse to do so from here on out. I hope I am making my mind and intentions perfectly clear on this point. Thank you and may God bless you and yours.
very closed minded dont you think?Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 15 2011,17:12)
You are reading what took place in the garden, not out in the world.“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27]
So your understanding of this is that Adam and Eve were one being and were called “HIM”?
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 15 2011,17:12)
Let me ask you Mike, do you think Satan will not be tossed thereunto?
YES……..no wait, NO………um……………
That is worded funny! 
I absolutely believe that Satan will be tossed into the abyss. Why? Because if God said it, then it is AS GOOD AS DONE. Get it? That is a metaphor. It doesn't mean it's already happened yet. Paladin, haven't you ever heard the expressions “done deal” or “consider it done”? “Hey, can you help me move this weekend?” “Consider it done!” It doesn't mean dude has ALREADY helped dude move, right?
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 15 2011,17:12)
Mike, Please accept my apology,
Consider it done. (This time, it is LITERALLY done, not metaphorically “will be done”.)Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 15 2011,17:12)
As to your question, it seems I am not the only one on the board with short term memopry problems, as I have only recently answered that question.
I have not seen an answer to my question about who the “one man” is in Romans 5, and the scriptures you posted today surely don't answer my question. I want a NAME of the “one man” in Romans 5 – can you list the NAME of that person?mike
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 15 2011,16:41)
Because David knew that God had promised him that of his loins one would come that would be his Lord, as resurrected Christ.
And the Pharisees also thought as you do, Paladin. They expected a Messiah who would be NOTHING BUT a son of David. Why do you think when Jesus gave them the teaching in Luke 20 they could say nothing in reply?The head of the house was called “lord” by the women and the children. The son was not called “my lord” by the father. Yet David spoke of the Messiah as his lord when the Messiah was supposed to be a son of David.
Jacob didn't even call Joseph “my lord” when Joseph was ruling over all of Egypt. In fact, the one who blesses is the greater, right? We just learned this about Melchisedek. The ruler over all of Egypt brought his own sons in to be blessed BY Jacob.
So it didn't fit in Hebrew culture that a father would call his son “my lord”. And that's what Jesus was teaching the Pharisees – that the Messiah must be someone who is NOT ONLY the son of David, or David would have never called his son “my lord”. It is also taught to us by the fact that Jesus is not only the branch of David, but also the ROOT.
This is also taught in Micah 5:2, when we learn the Messiah actually had his origins long ago.
But consider the scripture YOU posted, Paladin:
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
What do those words “according to the flesh” mean to you? What other way would Jesus come from the loins of David if not “flesh”? Why did Paul say it then………..as if he had to distinguish the manner that Jesus was OF David? This is not the only time it's said in scripture, either. Many times when Jesus is mentioned as coming from David, it is accompanied by “according to the flesh” or “as to his human nature”, etc.
Don't you wonder why they would say that weird thing, as if Jesus could have been anything other than flesh coming from the loins of a flesh and blood person?
mike
Hi Mike,
I know this question is directed towards Paladin:Quote I have not seen an answer to my question about who the “one man” is in Romans 5, and the scriptures you posted today surely don't answer my question. I want a NAME of the “one man” in Romans 5 – can you list the NAME of that person? But, i think he is going to respond with something like since Eve was created(neither of them were born in the usual way into the world) from Adam's side/rib then that qualifies them both as being one man. Such that the sin of eating the apple first which Eve did could easily could easily be said to have been done by Adam as well since Eve was a clone of Adam as it were. Having said that, I will like you wait for him to respond for himself. I could be quite wrong about this.
God bless you and yours,
Wispring(SF)
Quote
2. Your commiting this one fallacy over and over again. You cannot just state things as if they are a facts without warrents. Speculations is not proof.If by “warrents” you mean scripture references, I will try to remember that.
Now, SF, please explain the following remarks:
You quoted my statement, and asked a question: –
Quote 1. “John 1:1 has nothing to do with Jesus”
(Why?) Because it is talking about the logos, not a man.Then you asked “what man do you refer to” as though you don't know,
Quote What Man do you refer too? Because i Dont believe Jesus to be solely a Man. Then you made a statement that shows you very well did know what man I referred to –
Quote And how can you say that John 1:1 has nothing to do with Jesus when the very same chapter context is about Jesus. Are you playing word games with me?
SimplyForgiven,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
Part II(P)
Quote 2. “It is dealing with the logos, which was both God and with God. Jesus was not.”
(SF) And who told you that?Is God a spider? No? Who told you that? You see SF, we go by what scripture says, not by the silence thereof. The scripture says [John 1:1] “In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God, and the logos was God.”
But you say – “In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God.”
Then you ask me “who told you” that Jesus was not in the beginning with God and was God?
Nobody has to tell me that. Do you have a verse that tells you that Jesus was in the beginning with God and was God?
(P)
Quote Mathew said Jesus was “begotten by the spirit.” [Mat 1:20]
If he was begotten, he had a beginning.(SF) Who says? Your just making a conclusion based on one scripture. There are plenty of scriptures that say otherwise.
Just because I only referenced one scripture does not mean I draw a conclusion based only on one scripture. “I will declare the decree, this day have I begotten thee” [Psalm 2:7]
Luke tells of the resurrection of Jesus, and ties it to this 2nd Psalm, in Acts 13 – “And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.” [Acts 13:22-33]
SimplyForgiven,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
PART – III(SF)
Quote So is Jesus not with God and is not God? Correct!
(SF)
Quote
You wrote a bunch of things backwards and made claims that certains phrases cannot be used interchangably.
Why can Love not be God?
Why cant the word NOt be God?Why don't you do a little research online and get back to the issue after you learn the terminology? I was not intending to give a seminar on the subject.
(P)
Quote Jesus is involved in the new creation, not the original. How then is it a contradiction? I see I already told you this and offered a statement from Isaiah, which you do not respond to. Care to tell us where Jesus was if God created heaven and earth alone? Quote
Can you prove that?? You havent refuted my statements with any warrents whatsoever. You just said “not at all” and gave a explanation without any evidence to prove that Jesus is “SOLELY involved in the New Creation”.
I didnt respond to Isaiah because i agree with it, and because I believe Jesus is God. So i have no problem with Isaiah.Then you missed the point of my use of Isaiah. I showed you that Isaiah used singular nouns and also used “monos” and explained its significance. You cannot just take the part you agree with and ignore the rest of it and think you have answered the question. You have actually evaded the question.
SimplyForgiven,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
PART IV
(P)Quote Correct! It's called the new creation, by which “all things are made new in Christ Jesus.” (SF) Lol. Your adding to scripture bro. what you said, is “non-interchangable” because its someting that is not said in scripture.
Did you skip the part that says “WHO CREATED ALL THINGS”
What do you think that Phrase means?
Is ALL not all?
Does all not include OLD and NEW alike?
You do see that your just adding your speculatoin to your warrents but offer nothing to back up what you say?Just because you ignore what I post does not mean it is not posted.
“All” only means “every one” if it is not controlled by limiting paramaters. Col 1:16 has limiting parameters that tells us the scope and limit of the verse.
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” [Col 1:16]
That little phrase “Whether they be” is a limiting parameter telling us that the “all things” is a reference to “thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers” and nothing else is included in the reference.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 14 2011,04:44) [/quote]
PART – V(SF) So what doesnt make sense to me is why do you ignore clear evidence that Jesus pre-existed and took a role as a creator.
I will try again to explain it. You cannot (despite your best efforts) begin at the back of the book and correct the front of the book. That is what you are doing when you try to explain Gen 1 in the light of John 1.
If you begin at Gen 1 and study scriptures front to back, ending with John's gospel (It was the last book written) you will learn it the way God inspired it to be written.
(SF)
Quote Also did you forget his seed was from the Holy spirit? Did you forget “that which is begotten of the spirit is spirit?” [John 3:6] I don't think spirit has seed resulting in flesh.
(SF)
Quote Also notice, after all the clear evidences i give, or commentary, all you have to say is “NOPE”
Sounds very closed minded to me. dont you think?You won't find anywhere I uses “nope!” where it is not accompanied with the explanation as to why I said “nope!”
Same applies to “Not at all.”
(P)
Quote I think you may be forgetting one of the most important pieces of prophetic history, my friend. I think you know very well, Jesus came to die for our sins,. and that the Jews were going to either kill him or have him killed. So anything he had to say would have gotten him killed. The Jews constantly took the wrong message from what Jesus said. And Jesus constantly said that the Jews did not understand what he said. So why is it a surprise when the Jews accuse him of anything? (SF) I dont believe Jesus cared very much if they were going to kill him or not.
Then why did Jesus pray with strong crying and tears for God to let the cup pass from him? Because he didn't care? Really?
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” [Heb 5:7-9]
Why did Jesus weep to be saved from death?Why did Jesus have to learn obedience, if he was God?
And why did Jesus have to be made perfect, if he was God?
(SF)
Quote Look Paladin, You make many comments like “Nope” and “not at all” in response to clear evidences and explainations that you Couldnt refute. Its not enough to drop my claims. So please, if your going to state something offer more. Nope! That has not happened. I use negation, with accompanying explanations.
Your claim that I couldn't refute your “clear evidence” shows that you are not reading what you are responding to.
Here are a few of the verses I have posted that nobody deals with:
Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
egw = singular personal prononun “I”
eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
ho = singular definite article = “THE”
theos = singular noun = “GOD”Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
ho = singular definite article = “THE”
wn = present active singular participle = “BEING”
[A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]Here is where Jesus uses the term “monos” and demonstrates its meaning – “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monon [alone]: and yet ouk eimi monos , because the Father is with me.”[John 16:32]
Now watch God establish who created heaven and earth:
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, su theos monos [thou art the God, even thou alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” [Isa 37:16]su is singular “thou.”
theos is singular “God.”
Monos is singular “alone.”So God established person-singular-God-alone created heaven and earth. [God ouk monos {not alone} if with Jesus]
“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: su ei o`theos monos [thou art God alone].” [Psa 86:10]
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]su = singular pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
theos = singular noun “God”
monos = singular adjective = “alone”“su ei auto kurios monos [Thou, even thou, art LORD alone]; su [thou] hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.” [Neh 9:6]
su = singular personal pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
auto = singular personal pronoun = “even thou”
kurios = singular noun “Lord”
monos = singular adjective “alone.”
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]God established there is no other that is designated God, with [Deut 32:39];before [Isa 43:10], after [Isa 43:10], beside [isa 43:11; 45:6], or equal to Him [Isa 40:25; 46:5]
El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] prophesied through Isaiah [7:14], that his sone would be born of a virgin; Then he said this – “For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah [the LORD]? who among the sons of El [the mighty] can be likened unto the LORD?
“Who among the sons of El can be compared to Jehovah?” Jesus is the son of el Jehovah, and El Jehovah said no son is equal with him.
And there is plenty of testimony in the new testament that shows Jesus is a man who knows he is not God equal with God. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” [John 7:17]; ” But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God” [John 8:40]; and many many more.
mikeboll64,Mar. wrote:[/quote]
(M)Quote I agree with Paladin that to be “begotten” means that Jesus did have a beginning. I don't agree with him that his beginning was in the seed of Adam. I believe his beginning was before all the ages, as taught in Micah 5:2. Hello Mike; Perhaps it is simply that I have failed to properly explain the issue. Perhaps not. I will try again.
Before any effor twas put into creating anything, God brought forth wisdom, with whom he colaborated in the creation. But there were several other things he did, just as any master builder makes blueprints and lays out a material list, and counts the cost of material, labor, property purchase, and a host of other considerations prior to building, so also God preplanned according to foreknowledge and determinate counsel; He laid down the qualifications for certain classes of people; i.e., faithful, unfaithful, good, evil, etc.
He qualified certain types of persons to become members in his kingdom, before the kingdom ever existed.
Consider, a man begins to plan for marriage, and dreams of progeny in whom he intends to invest a good part of his life, as well as his goods, and his abilities. He wants his children to be cared for in case of his demise, so he plans accordingly.
He writes a will delineating what goes to who, what happens to his goods if his children abandon their mother to her fate, or if they remain faithful to their duties and care for her; Who gets the largest portion of what part; and who gets a lessor portion of some and a larger portion of some other; all the little details of balancing fairness with provision; justice with love; sternness with love.
God determined to provide a sacrifice for sin, based upon a fact that had not happened at the time he made the provision; i.e., man had not fallen, because God had not made man yet. God provided for every possible outcome; if Adam sinned and Eve did not; if Eve sinned and Adam did not; if neither parent sinned, but their progeny did. id Adam and Eve sinned but their offspring did not; all possibilities were provided for.
God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation. God's forethought and planning, translated into promise, made all the preplanned things as real as God's word can make them, simply because he said it, it was so.
Adam and Eve were introduced into the equation in the garden, and instructed concerning what was allowed and what was not allowed. If they remained faithful, there would be no need for the sin sacrifice, for them; If they remained faithful, and their progeny remained faithful, there would never have been a Messiah come to serve as a sacrifice for sin that never took place. God provided for all possibilities.
And when man failed to remain faithful, God gave them hope in the form of prophecies, beginning with Gen 3:15, and culminating in the closing pages of the old testament. All through the old testament God enhanced his children's understanding, by providing them with more clues as to the identity of Messiah, but without ever telling them precisely what to look for, because if he had spoken clearly, Satan would have known, and he would not have killed Jesus; thus thwarting God's plan for man's salvation.
God told the Jews enough in the Hebrew scripture, to lead them to Christ. He then told “the rest of the story” in a Greek account, and gave it to the Hebrew people for safe keeping until the Gentiles began to come into the kingdom.
God introduced himself to Abraham as a single-person-God; he introduced himself to Moses as a single-person-single being. He introduced himself to his prophets using singular nouns, pronouns, definite article, adjectives and verbs.
And he put all that planning into fruition as he began with planning, and moved on to creating, and continued with sustaining what he had put into reality.
The prophets spoke of ancient mountains, ancient landmarks; ancient boundaries, and property markers, as well as ancient civilizations, and other things that were of a very old age, and Micah also spoke of ancient things, using the same language the other prophets used, referencing things that were created, like mountains and landmarks, and used the term “ow-lam” to describe something of a very old age.
When Micah said “his goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” he used that word “ow-lam” which means way back before your known ancestors. He is speaking of prophecies, as far back in time as Gen 3:15. He is not speaking of eternity. Mountains and landmarks and civilizations were not around in eternity. There is nothing in Micah's writings to suggest Jesus was in existance other than in prophecy. The same holds true of all the prophets.
When Eve was deceived and transgressed, and shared her transgression with Adam, Messiah began to exist when God pronounced the first Messianic prophecy in Gen 3:15. And Messiah existed in prophecy all the way down to the New Testament times, when he became real when “Jesus began to be about thirty years of age” and began his life's mission. And the rest is history.
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,18:09) Hi WJ, Timothy 3:9 But avoid foolish
questions, and genealogies, and contentions,
and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
EDThe next time you talk to me you will be talking to a “wall”.
WJ
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,00:28) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 14 2011,04:44) [/quote]
PART – V(SF) So what doesnt make sense to me is why do you ignore clear evidence that Jesus pre-existed and took a role as a creator.
I will try again to explain it. You cannot (despite your best efforts) begin at the back of the book and correct the front of the book. That is what you are doing when you try to explain Gen 1 in the light of John 1.
If you begin at Gen 1 and study scriptures front to back, ending with John's gospel (It was the last book written) you will learn it the way God inspired it to be written.
(SF)
Quote Also did you forget his seed was from the Holy spirit? Did you forget “that which is begotten of the spirit is spirit?” [John 3:6] I don't think spirit has seed resulting in flesh.
(SF)
Quote Also notice, after all the clear evidences i give, or commentary, all you have to say is “NOPE”
Sounds very closed minded to me. dont you think?You won't find anywhere I uses “nope!” where it is not accompanied with the explanation as to why I said “nope!”
Same applies to “Not at all.”
(P)
Quote I think you may be forgetting one of the most important pieces of prophetic history, my friend. I think you know very well, Jesus came to die for our sins,. and that the Jews were going to either kill him or have him killed. So anything he had to say would have gotten him killed. The Jews constantly took the wrong message from what Jesus said. And Jesus constantly said that the Jews did not understand what he said. So why is it a surprise when the Jews accuse him of anything? (SF) I dont believe Jesus cared very much if they were going to kill him or not.
Then why did Jesus pray with strong crying and tears for God to let the cup pass from him? Because he didn't care? Really?
“Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;” [Heb 5:7-9]
Why did Jesus weep to be saved from death?Why did Jesus have to learn obedience, if he was God?
And why did Jesus have to be made perfect, if he was God?
(SF)
Quote Look Paladin, You make many comments like “Nope” and “not at all” in response to clear evidences and explainations that you Couldnt refute. Its not enough to drop my claims. So please, if your going to state something offer more. Nope! That has not happened. I use negation, with accompanying explanations.
Your claim that I couldn't refute your “clear evidence” shows that you are not reading what you are responding to.
Here are a few of the verses I have posted that nobody deals with:
Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
egw = singular personal prononun “I”
eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
ho = singular definite article = “THE”
theos = singular noun = “GOD”Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
ho = singular definite article = “THE”
wn = present active singular participle = “BEING”
[A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]Here is where Jesus uses the term “monos” and demonstrates its meaning – “Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monon [alone]: and yet ouk eimi monos , because the Father is with me.”[John 16:32]
Now watch God establish who created heaven and earth:
O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, su theos monos [thou art the God, even thou alone], of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.” [Isa 37:16]su is singular “thou.”
theos is singular “God.”
Monos is singular “alone.”So God established person-singular-God-alone created heaven and earth. [God ouk monos {not alone} if with Jesus]
“For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: su ei o`theos monos [thou art God alone].” [Psa 86:10]
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]su = singular pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
theos = singular noun “God”
monos = singular adjective = “alone”“su ei auto kurios monos [Thou, even thou, art LORD alone]; su [thou] hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.” [Neh 9:6]
su = singular personal pronoun “thou”
ei = 2nd person singular form of verb “TO BE” = “art”
auto = singular personal pronoun = “even thou”
kurios = singular noun “Lord”
monos = singular adjective “alone.”
[“ouk monos” {not alone} if with Jesus]God established there is no other that is designated God, with [Deut 32:39];before [Isa 43:10], after [Isa 43:10], beside [isa 43:11; 45:6], or equal to Him [Isa 40:25; 46:5]
El Jehovah [Isa 42:5] prophesied through Isaiah [7:14], that his sone would be born of a virgin; Then he said this – “For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah [the LORD]? who among the sons of El [the mighty] can be likened unto the LORD?
“Who among the sons of El can be compared to Jehovah?” Jesus is the son of el Jehovah, and El Jehovah said no son is equal with him.
And there is plenty of testimony in the new testament that shows Jesus is a man who knows he is not God equal with God. “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” [John 7:17]; ” But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God” [John 8:40]; and many many more.
Paladin……….AMEN a thousand times brother. Excellent Post , I get the same thing from scriptures that GOD “ALONE: and BY HIMSELF Created everything that exists and NO one Helped Him or even was with Him in doing it Just Him through HIS Spirits (ALONE)>peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 17 2011,01:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,06:30)
(M)Quote I agree with Paladin that to be “begotten” means that Jesus did have a beginning. I don't agree with him that his beginning was in the seed of Adam. I believe his beginning was before all the ages, as taught in Micah 5:2. Hello Mike; Perhaps it is simply that I have failed to properly explain the issue. Perhaps not. I will try again.
Before any effor twas put into creating anything, God brought forth wisdom, with whom he colaborated in the creation. But there were several other things he did, just as any master builder makes blueprints and lays out a material list, and counts the cost of material, labor, property purchase, and a host of other considerations prior to building, so also God preplanned according to foreknowledge and determinate counsel; He laid down the qualifications for certain classes of people; i.e., faithful, unfaithful, good, evil, etc.
He qualified certain types of persons to become members in his kingdom, before the kingdom ever existed.
Consider, a man begins to plan for marriage, and dreams of progeny in whom he intends to invest a good part of his life, as well as his goods, and his abilities. He wants his children to be cared for in case of his demise, so he plans accordingly.
He writes a will delineating what goes to who, what happens to his goods if his children abandon their mother to her fate, or if they remain faithful to their duties and care for her; Who gets the largest portion of what part; and who gets a lessor portion of some and a larger portion of some other; all the little details of balancing fairness with provision; justice with love; sternness with love.
God determined to provide a sacrifice for sin, based upon a fact that had not happened at the time he made the provision; i.e., man had not fallen, because God had not made man yet. God provided for every possible outcome; if Adam sinned and Eve did not; if Eve sinned and Adam did not; if neither parent sinned, but their progeny did. id Adam and Eve sinned but their offspring did not; all possibilities were provided for.
God promised Jesus glory, before the world was created; God hid his wisdom for our glory before he created the world; We were chosen in Christ before God created the world; We were given by God, works to perform, before he created the world; We were given purpose and grace in Christ, before God created the world; We were given the promise of eternal life before God created the world; Jesus was foreordained to be the sacrificial lamb before the foundation of the world; God loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. All these things were already set to happen, before the world was even begun in creation. God's forethought and planning, translated into promise, made all the preplanned things as real as God's word can make them, simply because he said it, it was so.
Adam and Eve were introduced into the equation in the garden, and instructed concerning what was allowed and what was not allowed. If they remained faithful, there would be no need for the sin sacrifice, for them; If they remained faithful, and their progeny remained faithful, there would never have been a Messiah come to serve as a sacrifice for sin that never took place. God provided for all possibilities.
And when man failed to remain faithful, God gave them hope in the form of prophecies, beginning with Gen 3:15, and culminating in the closing pages of the old testament. All through the old testament God enhanced his children's understanding, by providing them with more clues as to the identity of Messiah, but without ever telling them precisely what to look for, because if he had spoken clearly, Satan would have known, and he would not have killed Jesus; thus thwarting God's plan for man's salvation.
God told the Jews enough in the Hebrew scripture, to lead them to Christ. He then told “the rest of the story” in a Greek account, and gave it to the Hebrew people for safe keeping until the Gentiles began to come into the kingdom.
God introduced himself to Abraham as a single-person-God; he introduced himself to Moses as a single-person-single being. He introduced himself to his prophets using singular nouns, pronouns, definite article, adjectives and verbs.
And he put all that planning into fruition as he began with planning, and moved on to creating, and continued with sustaining what he had put into reality.
The prophets spoke of ancient mountains, ancient landmarks; ancient boundaries, and property markers, as well as ancient civilizations, and other things that were of a very old age, and Micah also spoke of ancient things, using the same language the other prophets used, referencing things that were created, like mountains and landmarks, and used the term “ow-lam” to describe something of a very old age.
When Micah said “his goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” he used that word “ow-lam” which means way back before your known ancestors. He is speaking of prophecies, as far back in time as Gen 3:15. He is not speaking of eternity. Mountains and landmarks and civilizations were not around in eternity. There is nothing in Micah's writings to suggest Jesus was in existance other than in prophecy. The same holds true of all the prophets.
When Eve was deceived and transgressed, and shared her transgression with Adam, Messiah began to exist when God pronounced the first Messianic prophecy in Gen 3:15. And Messiah existed in prophecy all the way down to the New Testament times, when he became real when “Jesus began to be about thirty years of age” and began his life's mission. And the rest is history.
Hi Paladin,Thanks for sharing your beliefs with us!
I do have one question, however.If as you say God provided for every contingency,
are you not insinuating that you may not believe
the first part of this verse in… Isaiah 46:10? …Is.46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:So my question is…
How can God declare what is going to happen if (according to Paladin) he doesn't know?
…Please explain this aspect of your belief in more detail for us all here,
so we con understand a bit more where you are coming from; OK?Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 17 2011,01:59) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,18:09) Hi WJ, Timothy 3:9 But avoid foolish
questions, and genealogies, and contentions,
and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
EDThe next time you talk to me you will be talking to a “wall”.
WJ
Hi WJ,Ezekiel 13:14-15 So will I (YHVH) break down the wall
that ye have daubed with untempered (leaven) morter,
and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation
thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be
consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that .
Thus will I accomplish my wrath upon the wall,
and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter,
and will say unto you, THE WALL IS NO MORE, neither they that daubed it;Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 15 2011,08:03) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 12 2011,06:18) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 12 2011,06:13) Paladin said: Quote All christians are in form God, as God lives in us and influences the changes in our lives. Jesus said, “You have not seen His form” (John 5:37). If all christians are in God form, then we have seen His form and Jesus was confused when He said that we have not seen His form.
o.k.Scripture also says we are “made in his image.”
Do you see his image anywhere?
You said we are “God form.” If this is true, then how could Jesus have said, “You have NOT seen His form”? Is this not a fair question sir!
Quote The word “form” in Philippians 2 means “substance.” Christ is of the same substance as God (Hebrews 1). So, does “substance” mean “form?”
Form is [morphee]
Substance is [ousia]
Luke 15:13
And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.ousian ousia accusative feminine singular form of noun ousia
meaning = property, money, wealthQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 15 2011,11:39) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2011,00:16) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44) All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out.
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12]
So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims
“Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam.But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here?
“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.”
And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man.
“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2]So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney.
Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain?Good post brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Speculationssssssssssssssssssssssthe bible says that sin entered through Adam, and that Eve was a transgressor.
dude stop adding to the bible its not nessary.
You should read what is posted, not sound bytes from a quote.Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 14 2011,10:18) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,14:33) Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 14 2011,00:18) Hi Paladin, Here is how the dilemma is solved!
Only if we look at this as “seed”(and NOT D.N.A.),
is Jesus absent from Adam, because the “HolySpirit” is
Jesus' Father, not Adam. (Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35)
The seed lineage would then NOT GO BACK all the way to Adam;
Jesus would be the only progeny called the “Son of God”. (Isaiah 7:14)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
You cannot solve a scriptural dilemma by abandoning scripture.I am not having any problem understanding the connection.
Paladinthe holy spirit is not a being it is a power used by God for many things ,God is spirit and uses his spirit what is holy to fulfill his will,
only Gods will is true and his words are truth,and to become holy we have to follow his word,and wisdom.
so Jesus received live from God trough the intervention of his holy spirit.
Pierre
Actually the whole old testament reference to the Holy spirit shows that God is The Father and the Holy Spirit, one entity; who said “I will pour forth of my spirit upon all flesh,” Joel 2:28] And this is quoted in Acts 2 “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel, “I will pour out of my spirit upon all flesh.”There is never a third person of a trinity Holy Spirit introduced into scripture. I think we are in agreement here.
Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 15 2011,12:26) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 15 2011,11:39) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2011,00:16) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44) All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out.
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12]
So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims
“Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam.But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here?
“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”
Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.”
And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man.
“This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2]So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney.
Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain?Good post brother.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Speculationssssssssssssssssssssssthe bible says that sin entered through Adam, and that Eve was a transgressor.
dude stop adding to the bible its not nessary.
Greetings forgiven….The very first sin was one of pride and the sinner was the Archangel Lucifer…for he declared that he was to be as the most high….How can adams sin of diobedience measure up to that …the answer is simple it is sin and God cannot exist in the presence of sin..
Where does that come from? Do you have a reference?When Adam and Eve stood in their guilt in the garden, God was with them as he corrected their disobedience. He certainly “existed in the presence of sin.”
And when Satan paraded before God in the presence of the sons of God, he accused Job unfairly, sinned by lying about Job, and God “existed in the presence of sin.”
When David slew Urriah the Hittite, and committed adultry with his wife Bathsheba, God sent his prophet to David, to confront him in his sin. God did not cease to exist.when God shows up at the judgment, in the midst of all those sinners, will he cease to exist?
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