Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[Paladin]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2011,21:07)

Paladin, Quote But Jehovah is not of a physical nature, for “God is spirit.” Jesus is not “Spirit” but is flesh, of his father David. I agree as I am not implying God has a body.  I just lack the vocabulary to express my idea literally and so I strove to use vocabulary that fit Irene’s idea of a spirit body in order to point out a son born of the body of God also God.   Since that would make two God’s the idea I addressed is flawed.   Quote But it was Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, in that their “essential character” was able to sin, which God's “essential character” cannot do. Sin is not the offspring of righteousness. I agree though I assumed my hearers would know I was not speaking of the part of God’s character that is unable to be tempted but only that which scripture speaks of when we are instructed to put on a holiness and righteousness like God’s.

Thanks for your response!

That kinda' clears that up.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 11 2011,07:09)

gene  ??

Terricca…………Anyone can quote scriptures like you and Irene do also, the same ones over and over , but understanding them is what counts not just quoting them. That is why i like what Paladin does He expounds them to us from there original Greek language and then we can get the right context and meaning of what they are saying because many have corrupted the words during translation and other dogmas of preconceived theologies as you and Irene and Mike continually do, to your own hurt. Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying. He brings clarity to scriptures to those who have eyes to see and ear to hear. IMO

peace and love…………………………………..gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2011,09:35)

Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying.

Gene,

A blind man is unaware that his guide is also blind.

[terraricca]

gene

Quote

Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying. He brings clarity to scriptures to those who have eyes to see and ear to hear. IMO

this does not show nothing in knowledge but the acknowledgment of paladin by you ,the same way than beer drinkers and smokers are supporting themselves ,no truth in there

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

John 8:37
37 I know you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word.

Uh oh. The Logos of God has his own logos.

[Lightenup]

John 12:48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

John 8:25 Then they asked him, “Who are you?” Jesus told them, “What have I been telling you all along?[r] 26I have much to say about you and to condemn you for. But the one who sent me is truthful,[t] and what I have heard from him I declare to the world.”

27 They didn't realize that he was talking to them about the Father. 28So Jesus told them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own authority. Instead, I speak only what the Father has taught me. 29Moreover, the one who sent me is with me. He has never left me alone because I always do what pleases him.” 30While he was saying these things, many believed in him.
31So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are really my disciples. 32And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

[mikeboll64]

Kathi's version: Then you will know that I am THE GREAT “I AM”……………………and I do nothing of my own authority.

Kathi, by WHOSE authority does the Great “I AM” operate?

[Paladin]

Pastry,Sep. wrote:

[/quote]
Yes, let us hear what the Scriptures says… not only John 6:62 but first how many translations say just about the same thing

New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 6:62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man
ascend to heaven again?

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

New International Version (NIV)
Jhn 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!  

English Standard Version (ESV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Jhn 6:62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Revised Standard Version (RSV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

American Standard Version (ASV)
Jhn 6:62 [What] then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Jhn 6:62 if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Darby Translation (DBY)
Jhn 6:62 If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Webster's Bible (WEB)
Jhn 6:62 [What] if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Hebrew Names Version (HNV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Latin Vulgate (VUL)
Jhn 6:62 [Vulgate 6:63] si ergo videritis Filium hominis ascendentem ubi erat prius  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Textus Receptus (TR)
Jhn 6:62 ἐὰν οὖν θεωρῆτε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερον  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

Morphological Greek New Testament (mGNT)
Jhn 6:62 ἐὰν οὖν θεωρῆτε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερον  

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in the above translation.

These are some of the translators that translated that Scripture….. And it says just the same….

ean oun thewreete ton uion tou anthrwpou anabainonta opou een to proteron

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in ANY translation.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 12 2011,03:38)

gene Quote  Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying. He brings clarity to scriptures to those who have eyes to see and ear to hear. IMO this does not show nothing in knowledge but the acknowledgment of paladin by you ,the same way than beer drinkers and smokers are supporting themselves ,no truth in there Pierre

Terrica…………….I realize you and your Co-harts don't recieve anythings from what Paladin or Kerwin or I or Marty and others have explained to you , but Just like the Pharisees you Just don't seem to  have the Spirit of Truth to understand it , you as they have a (FALSE) Preconceived Misunderstanding what Jesus was truly saying, and You, Just as they, are blind guides of the blind, but thanks be to GOD there are (JUST) a Few He has given the true understanding of Scriptures to.  You would do well to listen to them IMO.

You believe God had to take a preexisting Super Angel or demigod  or a God in order to show us, His truths and had to do it outside of a human race by a “MORPHED” Past existent whatever.  You and your Co-hart are completely trying to destory God's work (IN) humanity by your false doctrines of preexistence which is nothing more then a work of   SEPARATION and indeed you shall recieve  the fruit of your Antichrist teachings and  preaching soon. In that Day you will know who is of the truth and who is not that is for sure. IMO

peace and love………………………………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 12 2011,03:35)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 11 2011,09:35) Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying. Gene, A blind man is unaware that his guide is also blind.

Mike…………I agree with that and your Guide to the idea of a PREEXISTENT Jesus was given to you from you past TRINITARIAN exposures and there is where the truth lies , you as they have bought into the Biggest “LIE” ever brought forth in Christendom. A LIE that   separates Jesus from our exact Identity  and turns the “image” of Jesus into a “MAN OF SIN” Spoken of by Paul in 2Ths 2.  God's purpose is and was to “PERFECT MANKIND” not some other creatures,  and He used a FLESH Man to start that perfection with, not some other kind of “MORPHED” Being of some kind, simple logic aught to tell you that . What good would it do to Prefect an already Perfect Being in the first place , what example would that give man kind NONE

Fact is Mike you Irene and Pierre are nothing more then Trinitarians with a ever so slight twist of doctrines I would call you mini trinitarians, I can list you same beliefs if you like there are many. But i believe you already know them all anyway. IMO

peace and love………………………………….gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 12 2011,14:02)

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 12 2011,03:38) gene Quote  Paladin i believe is the best Here to give the original Greek meaning of those words i have checked it out and he is very accurate in what he is saying and we should all pay more attention to what he is saying. He brings clarity to scriptures to those who have eyes to see and ear to hear. IMO this does not show nothing in knowledge but the acknowledgment of paladin by you ,the same way than beer drinkers and smokers are supporting themselves ,no truth in there Pierre Terrica…………….I realize you and your Co-harts don't recieve anythings from what Paladin or Kerwin or I or Marty and others have explained to you , but Just like the Pharisees you Just don't seem to  have the Spirit of Truth to understand it , you as they have a (FALSE) Preconceived Misunderstanding what Jesus was truly saying, and You, Just as they, are blind guides of the blind, but thanks be to GOD there are (JUST) a Few He has given the true understanding of Scriptures to.  You would do well to listen to them IMO. You believe God had to take a preexisting Super Angel or demigod  or a God in order to show us, His truths and had to do it outside of a human race by a “MORPHED” Past existent whatever.  You and your Co-hart are completely trying to destory God's work (IN) humanity by your false doctrines of preexistence which is nothing more then a work of   SEPARATION and indeed you shall recieve  the fruit of your Antichrist teachings and  preaching soon. In that Day you will know who is of the truth and who is not that is for sure. IMO peace and love………………………………gene

gene

du deja vue

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2011,13:33)

Speaking of things that must hurt, Ed pointed me to this scripture: Hebrews 11:3 NKJV © By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. According to Paladin's theory, (which was gladly accepted without evidence by Wispring, Marty, Gene, Kerwin, and anyone else that was willing to jump on the bandwagon just because they liked the non-preexistent conclusion it promised), the word “word” above MUST BE “logos”, right?  Guess again.

Mike, when are you going to quit yapping at my heels like the puppy you pictrure for your avatar?

You said way back in page 198, post 8 “I don't want anything more to do with you.”

Yet you keep yapping at my heels begging for attention.

Now you take a lesson I taught you way back in the beginning of the thread, page 4 post #9, about Heb 11:3, last reference in the post, (bottom of the page) and pretend like you just discovered it from Ed's post; and corrupt it just like you try to corrupt everything I post; just as you did in page 137 post #8.

If you don't leave me alone, Mike, I am moving on and leaving your sick “attack dog” mentality with you. I really am tired of your constant sniping with inuendo's and falsifications of my position. Witicisms and cuteness will no longer get it for you mike, so please stop.

[Paladin]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,19:29)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2011,13:33) Speaking of things that must hurt, Ed pointed me to this scripture: Hebrews 11:3 NKJV © By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. According to Paladin's theory, (which was gladly accepted without evidence by Wispring, Marty, Gene, Kerwin, and anyone else that was willing to jump on the bandwagon just because they liked the non-preexistent conclusion it promised), the word “word” above MUST BE “logos”, right?  Guess again. Mike, when are you going to quit yapping at my heels like the puppy you pictrure for your avatar? You said way back in page 198, post 8 “I don't want anything more to do with you.” Yet you keep yapping at my heels begging for attention. Now you take a lesson I taught you way back in the beginning of the thread, page 4 post #9, about Heb 11:3, last reference in the post, (bottom of the page) and pretend like you just discovered it from Ed's post; and corrupt it just like you try to corrupt everything I post; just as you did in page 137 post #8. If you don't leave me alone, Mike, I am moving on and leaving your sick “attack dog”  mentality with you. I really am tired of your constant sniping with inuendo's and falsifications of my position. Witicisms and cuteness will no longer get it for you mike, so please stop.

I have posted a note to T8 asking him to judge between us Mike, and I will move on if that is what he recommends. I will not sit quietly by and allow you to continue to berate my friends wih your snide remarks and lies.

I tried leaving you alone, at your own request, but obviously that was not what you wanted. You only want to snipe and bay at my heels and for me to remain silent.

I no longer will.

[Paladin]

Here is a personal invitation to Mike –

Can we come together as brethren and study those areas in which we find disagreement? Can we practice that love between brethren Christ demosntrated by his life?

I still value you as a knowledgeable person, Mike, and will offer the hand of fellowship, but not with cdonstant attacks on my friends, or those who agree with me. It is not how discussions should be carried out.

I bear you no personal animosity, but my friends need me to stand when accused, as it reflects upon their labor in the lord as well as mine.

It would speak well for us both if we can come to an accomodation in this matter. Will you join me?

I would premise first, that there are no “victories” between opposing position, as the only victory would be when one learns what he did not know before.

And if one learns something, it is no shame to state such, to the glory of God and his son Jesus Christ.

I have learned from the discussions on this board, and others, and I have gained understanding in many things I only began to see when first introduced into discussion here.

I feel that it would be to our mtual advantage if we can come together as brethren, rather than part in disagreement and ill feeling.

What say you?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2011,14:41)

Kathi's version:  Then you will know that I am THE GREAT “I AM”……………………and I do nothing of my own authority. Kathi, by WHOSE authority does the Great “I AM” operate?

The Father's authority as always.

[Pastry]

Quote

Please get one of your friends point out to you which word is translated “heaven” in ANY translation.

Paladin, you tell me where Jesus ascended to?  Is He seated at the right hand of His Father?  That is where He  was before…. Just like John 17:5 tells us also…. unfortunately you don't seem to understand this…Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 12 2011,14:32)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 11 2011,14:41) Kathi's version:  Then you will know that I am THE GREAT “I AM”……………………and I do nothing of my own authority. Kathi, by WHOSE authority does the Great “I AM” operate?   The Father's authority as always.

So the “Great I Am” isn't quite as in charge of things as you let on, huh?  The “Great I Am” only does what someone else AUTHORIZES him to do.  That doesn't sound like God Almighty to me, but more like a SERVANT OF God Almighty.  Oh, that's right.  Jesus IS a SERVANT OF his God, and therefore NOT the “Great I WILL BE”.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,02:29)

If you don't leave me alone, Mike, I am moving on and leaving your sick “attack dog” mentality with you.

Hi Paladin,

I'm not singling you out here. I make these same kinds of post all over this site to people who post unscriptural and illogical things in an effort to promote their flawed doctrines.

Just ask Lightenup.

If you don't want to be “attacked” by me and my scriptures, then all you have to do is stop posting unscriptural and illogical things.

mike

[Paladin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 13 2011,10:29)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 12 2011,02:29) If you don't leave me alone, Mike, I am moving on and leaving your sick “attack dog”  mentality with you. Hi Paladin, I'm not singling you out here.  I make these same kinds of post all over this site to people who post unscriptural and illogical things in an effort to promote their flawed doctrines. Just ask Lightenup.   If you don't want to be “attacked” by me and my scriptures, then all you have to do is stop posting unscriptural and illogical things. mike

Suit yourself Mike. I will not be attacked and remain silent any longer.

You can be my friend, and brother, or choose enmity if that's your choice.

[Paladin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 13 2011,09:50)

Paladin, you tell me where Jesus ascended to?

Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

This is about the resurrection. Jesus descended into the grave then ascended to where he was before, among men.

[Author]

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