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Now WHERE did THAT come from? “SUCH AS”? But I thought the word “whether” meant that ONLY those things mentioned were created through Jesus!
And this, from Paladin's new favorite translation! Oooh, that's got to hurt.
Speaking of things that must hurt, Ed pointed me to this scripture:
Hebrews 11:3 NKJV ©
By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.According to Paladin's theory, (which was gladly accepted without evidence by Wispring, Marty, Gene, Kerwin, and anyone else that was willing to jump on the bandwagon just because they liked the non-preexistent conclusion it promised), the word “word” above MUST BE “logos”, right? Guess again.
Irene,
Quote That all depends what you mean by New Creation? The new creation is the creation of a spirit (essential character) of all things. It is finished when all things once more are in the kingdom of heaven.
James speaks of it in this scripture though the word “new” is implied.
Quote James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Scripture also speaks of it here though it does not use either the words new or creation and yet the idea is the same.
Quote 1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.It is spoken of here as well though the words “all things” are used as a synonym of “creation”.
Quote Revelation 21:5
King James Version (KJV)5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Quote There are six translations that says the same then what the KJV does, and that I believe The Trinitarian experts, who also believe in that Jesus Preexisted his conception, debate the wording of Revelations 3:14; which is clear evidence they had a hard understanding it.
We both agree that Jesus is the chief of both the old and new creation and therefore that particular understanding is one we hold in common and it also fits the letter and context of Revelations 3:14. We do not both believe that Jesus was created before anything else was created.
Quote What I find interesting is the same translation of the NLT translates Rev. 3:14 as the new creation, but look what it does with Col. 1:15. The translators of the New Living Translation strove to translate the thoughts expressed by the writers into the English language and therefore it is a version that is possibly more subject to bias than a version that just strives to translate the words.
I agree with both ideas expressed by it in Colossians 1:15 and Revelations 3:14 as both are consistent with the message of Salvation and I also see no reason to quibble over the “correct” understanding of a particular scripture as long as the gospel of Jesus Anointed is properly understood.
Quote Now all Trinitarians believe that Jesus always existed, which I don't believe…..Hiw can a Son be in existing at the same time then His Father? That would not make Him a Son….. I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. That obvious point caused the Trinitarians a problem since they also hold there is only one of the God kind. The Trinitarians solved that dilemma by the speculation on one or another three and one ideas.
A similar flaw does not exist in the tenet that Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit (Essential Character) even as Adam and Eve were children of the essential character of God before they fell.
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 09 2011,04:53) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 08 2011,22:41) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 08 2011,17:57) Let me see wht other translation say
New Living Translation (NLT)
Rev 3:14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning [fn] of God's new creation:WoW! Wonder where THAT came from? The beginning of God's new creation.
Paladin! What you missed, Paladin that there are six different translations of Rev.3:14, but most say what the King James version says…. You can get all those translations from the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet….. Anyone can get it…..Here are a few moreRevised Standard Version (RSV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in La-odice'a write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the chief of the creation of God;Webster's Bible (WEB)
Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;New King James Version (NKJV)
Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [fn] write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
You would probably rather go with the NLT version since that fitrs better your theology….
..
But YOU too should look at what the Bible teaches us really about the firstborn of all creation, the beginning of all creation. The form Jesus was in before He became a man…. All that has convinced me, that I am on the right track….And then we have Jesus own words, that say, He came down from Heaven to do His Fathers will….Phl 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
Phl 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men.
And He said this
Jhn 6:33 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
Jhn 6:34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 “But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
Jhn 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Jhn 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Jhn 6:39 “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jhn 6:41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
Jhn 6:42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven'?”
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 “It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' [fn] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned [fn] from the Father comes to Me.
Jhn 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me [fn] has everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 “I am the bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 “This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die.
Jhn 6:51 “I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us [His] flesh to eat?”
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 “For My flesh is food indeed, [fn] and My blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
Jhn 6:58 “This is the bread which came down from heaven–not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
Jhn 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Jhn 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard [this], said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 “[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”Pierre also gave you the Scriptures in Col. 1 to show you…..
I said this to Kerwin, whatever you want to believe, I can't change you, but I believe what Jesus told John, and I believe Him….Peace Irene
O.K. Irene, Let's see if you bleieve the words of John and Paul? ? ?John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
TRINITY ARGUMENT: Since Jesus said that he was going to return back up to where he was before, he must have been in heaven, and therefore, must have been God.
REBUTTAL: Jesus did not say he was going “back” to anything, or anywhere. Paul tells us that before he ascended, he descended, not to Earth from Heaven, but from earth to the lower parts of Earth, or the grave. His reference is to his death, burial, visit to the “spirits in prison,” and finally his resurrection. His ascention into Heaven came later. Jesus himself told the Jews that they would see this “sign of Jonas,” which took place at his resurrection. But you will find no scriptural account where any of the Jewish crowd ever witnessed his ascension into heaven. All kinds of problems arose however, when the soldiers could not produce his body.
They became witnesses to his resurrection, reluctant, but witnesses.John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
NOTE: This cannot refer to some pre-existant sta
te, because his designation of “Son of Man” only applies to his being a man.
Therefore, what, about his being a man, was changed, then
changed back? Or, to put it another way, what descended, and was raised back to its previous state?Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
A SIGN TO THE NINEVITES:…A SIGN TO THIS GENERATION:
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. 30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting, desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
THE CHANGE THAT WAS CHANGED BACK; THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION:
Mark 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.Was he seen of the Jews? His disciples were all Jews at that time.
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;… 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.And he had not yet ascended to his father…
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Quote
O.K. Irene, Let's see if you bleieve the words of John and Paul? ? ?John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
TRINITY ARGUMENT: Since Jesus said that he was going to return back up to where he was before, he must have been in heaven, and therefore, must have been God.
Paladin! Lets see what your favorite translation of the Bible says about John 6:62
New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 6:62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?King James Version (KJV)
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?As far as that Jesus is God, that argument has been an ever ending one….. God is a title and both have other names. Jesus also has the title of The Word of God…..John 1:1 That does not make Him
Jehovah God who is above all….Eph. 4:6. and by Jesus own words He said thisJhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THEN I.
As far as the Catholic Church goes, I don't believe what they say….. We happen to come out of that Church and I know first hand what their practices are….
Paladin, you do exactly what Kerwin and Gene are doing, given Scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus…. Those Scriptures are true, but do not rule out the other Scriptures that proof Jesus was in Heaven before, for instance….. even your favorite translation says so…..
You know for the world I don't understand why you and others want to ignore those Scriptures that proof Jesus was with His Father before He became a man……. also the Catholic Church believes that Jesus always existed…. which is false… but to make their doctrine of the trinity right in their eyes, He has to be that way….. but it is not so……Scriptures say otherwise….
Also this evil generation wants to rule out every Scripture that is true…. that argument does not fit at all with me….. you again nit pick and never deal with the Scriptures that we put in front of you….
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2011,13:26) Now WHERE did THAT come from? “SUCH AS”? But I thought the word “whether” meant that ONLY those things mentioned were created through Jesus! And this, from Paladin's new favorite translation! Oooh, that's got to hurt.
Mike! That is why I like the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet, I can look at so many different translations…. As always Paladin didn't go into those Scriptures…..
Peace IreneQuote
I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. That obvious point caused the Trinitarians a problem since they also hold there is only one of the God kind. The Trinitarians solved that dilemma by the speculation on one or another three and one ideas.
Kerwin! Just tell me, am I reading this right, that Jehovah is of the physical kind? Just that right now…. I want to see if that is what you mean…IreneQuote (Pastry @ Sep. 10 2011,09:51) Quote
Nope! Not in the Greek in that verse.Scripture teaches that God the father alone created all things.
Jesus created all things new.
Paladin! You pick on one Scripture, and that is not even so…… God through Jesus created all…..
And what Scripture says that Jesus created all things new?
New Living Translation (NLT)
Col 1:16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.Even the translation you like says it…..
Irene
And how many scriptures did you “pick” Irene, that tells you he was firstborn of creation? That's right! It only takes one. So what's your problem when I take one scripture to teach the lesson contained therein?Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen (ginomai) kainon [become new].
Even John says the same thing – “All things were (ginomai)made by him; and without him was not any thing (ginomai) made that (ginomai) gegonen [was made].”[John 1:3]
So you have more than one scripture that says Jesus made all things new.
And I need only one verse that says God made all things, first-person-singular monos [alone.]
kurie (vocative masculine singular) o`(nominative masculine singular definite article) theos (nominativ emasculine singular designation for God) Israeel (genitive masculine singular proper name) o` (nominative masculine singular definite article) katheemenos (singular verb) epi (genitive pronoun) twn (plural genitive definite article) ceroubin (genitive neuter plural “cherubim”) su (nominative masculine singular personal pronoun “YOU) theos (nominative masculine singular designation for God) monos (nominative masculine singular adjective “alone”) ei (indicative present active verb “are”) pasees (indefinite genitive feminine singular adjective) basileias (genitive feminine singular noun “domain”) tees (genigive feminine singuloar definite article) oikoumenees (genitive feminine singular noun “world”) su (nominative masculine singular personal pronoun “you”) epoieesas (indicative aorist active singular verb “made”) ton (accusative masculine singular definite article “the”) ouranon (accusative masculine singular noun “heaven”) kai (coordinating conjunction “and”) teen (accusative feminine singular definite article “the”) geen (accusative feminine singular noun “earth”)
TRANSLATION (KJV)
Isaiah 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.AND OF COURSE, THERE ARE VERY MANY MORE OF THE SAME.
And Jesus said when he and the father are together, they are ouk eimi monos (NOT ALONE)[John 16:32] – But God said he first-person-singular and monos (alone) created heaven and earth.
Now, Irene, I realize you are not knowledgeable in the Greek, but some of your friends are, so simply ask them to verify for you that this post is correct. Surely no one would misrepresent the truth just to rescue a doctrine.
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 10 2011,20:04) Quote
O.K. Irene, Let's see if you bleieve the words of John and Paul? ? ?John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
TRINITY ARGUMENT: Since Jesus said that he was going to return back up to where he was before, he must have been in heaven, and therefore, must have been God.
Paladin! Lets see what your favorite translation of the Bible says about John 6:62
New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 6:62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?King James Version (KJV)
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?As far as that Jesus is God, that argument has been an ever ending one….. God is a title and both have other names. Jesus also has the title of The Word of God…..John 1:1 That does not make Him
Jehovah God who is above all….Eph. 4:6. and by Jesus own words He said thisJhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THEN I.
As far as the Catholic Church goes, I don't believe what they say….. We happen to come out of that Church and I know first hand what their practices are….
Paladin, you do exactly what Kerwin and Gene are doing, given Scriptures that have nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus…. Those Scriptures are true, but do not rule out the other Scriptures that proof Jesus was in Heaven before, for instance….. even your favorite translation says so…..
You know for the world I don't understand why you and others want to ignore those Scriptures that proof Jesus was with His Father before He became a man……. also the Catholic Church believes that Jesus always existed…. which is false… but to make their doctrine of the trinity right in their eyes, He has to be that way….. but it is not so……Scriptures say otherwise….
Also this evil generation wants to rule out every Scripture that is true…. that argument does not fit at all with me….. you again nit pick and never deal with the Scriptures that we put in front of you….
You need to learn the difference between a name and a title.Jesus was given a nomos [name] “The Logos Of God” [Rev 3:12][Rev 19:12-13]
Pilate put a titlon [title] on the cross of Jesus when he was crucified. And it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Paladin! And you need to learn to stay with ONE SUBJECT, and not float all over the place…..yes, I know what the cross had on. The cross was the object that they used to crucfy my Lord, and I don;t ever want to put that on my wall….
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 11 2011,00:16) Paladin! And you need to learn to stay with ONE SUBJECT, and not float all over the place…..yes, I know what the cross had on. The cross was the object that they used to crucfy my Lord, and I don;t ever want to put that on my wall….
O.K. Let's stay with one subject.Quote Paladin Posted: Feb. 25 2011,00:29
————————————————————
If I understand this “Incarnation” trinity theory, you are telling me that Jesus preexisted with the Father in eternity, then “incarnated” by the Holy spirit in the womb of Mary.Scripture tells a far different story. At least three times in three different accounts, we are told that Jesus is the seed of Adam or the woman (Eve), in Messianic prophecies.
We are told of the seed promise beginning with Gen 3:15, where the woman is told “Thy seed” so the incarnation begins with this woman of prophecy. Then her progeny carry that seed, and passed it on through several generations till Abraham is specifically mentioned by name, as one in a long line of the “seed carriers.” He is promised that “through thy seed” all nations will be blessed. It is similar to the promise first made to “the woman” of Gen 3:15.
Then Abrahams line begins in turn, to carry that seed from father to son to son to son through a long line of seed carriers. It goes in promise through Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Judah, Jesse, David, Mary, of whom it is said Jesus “was made of a woman” just like the promise began way back in Gen 3:15.
If there is indeed an “incarnation” where did it take place. I contend it would have been in the woman of Gen 3:15, because each carrier of the seed would be “carnate” and the seed would be within, or “incarnate.”
The seed had to be passed from generation to generation, for each generation in turn would “excarnate” so the seed would have to have been passed prior to that “excarnation” event.
The passing of the seed is parammount to comprehension of the “incarnation” of the Christ.
Messiah became real when God foretold that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the seed of the serpent.
Paul explained it this way – “As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were” [Rom 4:17]
Paladin………..I tell you brother they Just do not get it.
Peace and love to you and yours………………………………….gene
Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 10 2011,19:33) John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? TRINITY ARGUMENT: Since Jesus said that he was going to return back up to where he was before, he must have been in heaven, and therefore, must have been God.
REBUTTAL: Jesus did not say he was going “back” to anything, or anywhere. Paul tells us that before he ascended, he descended, not to Earth from Heaven, but from earth to the lower parts of Earth, or the grave. His reference is to his death, burial, visit to the “spirits in prison,” and finally his resurrection. His ascention into Heaven came later. Jesus himself told the Jews that they would see this “sign of Jonas,” which took place at his resurrection. But you will find no scriptural account where any of the Jewish crowd ever witnessed his ascension into heaven. All kinds of problems arose however, when the soldiers could not produce his body.
They became witnesses to his resurrection, reluctant, but witnesses.John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
NOTE: This cannot refer to some pre-existant state, because his designation of “Son of Man” only applies to his being a man.
Therefore, what, about his being a man, was changed, then
changed back? Or, to put it another way, what descended, and was raised back to its previous state?Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
A SIGN TO THE NINEVITES:…A SIGN TO THIS GENERATION:
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. 30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.Mat 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting, desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
THE CHANGE THAT WAS CHANGED BACK; THE DEATH AND RESURRECTION:
Mark 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.Was he seen of the Jews? His disciples were all Jews at that time.
1 Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once;… 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.And he had not yet ascended to his father…
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
To All……….> who have ears to hear and eyes to see, these scriptures and there explanation by Paladin are absolutely right IMOpeace and love to you all…………………………….gene
Yes, let us hear what the Scriptures says… not only John 6:62 but first how many translations say just about the same thing
New Living Translation (NLT)
Jhn 6:62 Then what will you think if you see the Son of Man ascend to heaven again?New International Version (NIV)
Jhn 6:62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!English Standard Version (ESV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Jhn 6:62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?Revised Standard Version (RSV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?American Standard Version (ASV)
Jhn 6:62 [What] then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before?Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Jhn 6:62 if then ye may behold the Son of Man going up where he was before?Darby Translation (DBY)
Jhn 6:62 If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?Webster's Bible (WEB)
Jhn 6:62 [What] if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Hebrew Names Version (HNV
Jhn 6:62 Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?Latin Vulgate (VUL)
Jhn 6:62 [Vulgate 6:63] si ergo videritis Filium hominis ascendentem ubi erat priusTextus Receptus (TR)
Jhn 6:62 ἐὰν οὖν θεωρῆτε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερονMorphological Greek New Testament (mGNT)
Jhn 6:62 ἐὰν οὖν θεωρῆτε τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἀναβαίνοντα ὅπου ἦν τὸ πρότερονThese are some of the translators that translated that Scripture….. And it says just the same….
and then we have other Scrioptures like theseJhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:41 ¶ The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jhn 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Jhn 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jhn 6:48 I am that bread of life.
Jhn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
Jhn 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jhn 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Jhn 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
Jhn 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Jhn 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Jhn 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Jhn 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Jhn 6:62 [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Jhn 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?Jhn 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Many in Jesus time didn't believe Him either, I will believe our Savior,……And YOU Paladin want to tell us, Jesus did not come from Heaven before He became a man….. well I rathr believe all those Translators…
Blue Letter Bible. “Gospel of John 6 – (KJV – King James Version).” Blue Letter Bible. 1996-2011. 10 S
Irene
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 10 2011,15:11) Quote
I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. That obvious point caused the Trinitarians a problem since they also hold there is only one of the God kind. The Trinitarians solved that dilemma by the speculation on one or another three and one ideas.
Kerwin! Just tell me, am I reading this right, that Jehovah is of the physical kind? Just that right now…. I want to see if that is what you mean…Irene
Irene,Your belief is that Jehovah has a spirit body. A body of any type is a physical presence according to what I know and it is the only way I know of speaking of a body as opposed to a naked soul or the bodiless seat of character.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 10 2011,17:38) I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. But Jehovah is not of a physical nature, for “God is spirit.” Jesus is not “Spirit” but is flesh, of his father David.
Quote A similar flaw does not exist in the tenet that Jesus is the Son of God’s Spirit (Essential Character) even as Adam and Eve were children of the essential character of God before they fell. But it was Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, in that their “essential character” was able to sin, which God's
“essential character” cannot do. Sin is not the offspring of righteousness.Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 10 2011,20:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 10 2011,13:26) Now WHERE did THAT come from? “SUCH AS”? But I thought the word “whether” meant that ONLY those things mentioned were created through Jesus! And this, from Paladin's new favorite translation! Oooh, that's got to hurt.
Mike! That is why I like the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet, I can look at so many different translations….
As always Paladin didn't go into those Scriptures…..
Peace Irene
Paladin quit “going into those scriptures” after about the third time you totally blew them off, and never dealt with his response.Every time I do respond to them, you just repost them as though nothing was ever posted in rebuttal.
This is from page 1 post #5
Quote (Baker @ Feb. 25 2011,07:10) Paladin! Hello, how about all these Scriptures Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He din't exist before the World was. Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father… Sitting on the Throne next to Him. Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……
Peace and love Irene
(Irene)Quote Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Fair question. I do not wonder that Jesus is the image of God, for he is a man, and all men are the image fo God. “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:”
Quote Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: See that little limiting parameter there in the verse, Irene?
“Whether…” tells us the scope and depth of “all things” of which it is said he is the creator; ” For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers…”So Christ created all things, “whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers…”
This is a reference to the downward adjustment all thrones, dominions, principalities and powers had to make when he was raised to the right hand of God, to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom of God. They had to shift down one position.
Quote Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Right! Resurrected christ is first, then when the resurrection of all takes place, he will at that point “have been first.”
Quote Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the
church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;Right! The creation of God began with heaven and earth and all that therein is; then proceeded to resurrected “new” beings, never before seen in creation. And Jesus was first of those firstborn from the dead, and as first, until the general resurrection, he will be the “only begotten” from the dead.
Quote Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. “In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ton theon, and ho logos was theos.”
“ho logos” and “theos” are not interchangable terms, because
“theos” is unarticulated. When “ho logos” became flesh,
“theos” did not. If you assume “ho logos” and “theos” to be interchangeable, you then have all of God being all of what
“ho logos” is, because “theos” would have to be “ho theos,” with the article like “ho logos” and you will have Sabellianism.As A. T. Robertson says on page 768, The absence of the article here is on purpose and essential to the true idea.”
Another misapplied option, is to do what the JW's do with this verse, i.e., translate “the logos was a God.” It is not supported by the Greek, for the Greek has no indefinite article, and the English does not require it for comprehension.
Quote Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. Jesus said to his disciples “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. “And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” [John 16:4]
Jesus was with the disciples in the beginning of his ministry, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the beginning of creation. Jesus and John are speaking of the same beginning. And since John tells us later (69 a.d.) in the Revelation, that Jesus will be given a new name, and that name will be “the Logos of God,” then “the logos of God” could not have been Jesus' name at the beginning of his ministry, nor at the creation beginning.
Quote Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Look to II Cor 5:17 for a clue as to the language John uses in John 1:3, and how the words are used in both passages;
“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new.” [II COr 5:17]
“All things became egeneto [were made] by him; and without him not any thing egeneto [became] that gegonen [has become].” [John 1:3]
For just a touch more enlightenment as to how this word is used in scripture, look for a moment at Luke 23:12 “And the same day Pilate and Herod egenonto [were made] friends together…” All these wordforms are derived from the Greek
“ginomai” which references a change that takes place, as in a new creation, rather than the original creation.Quote
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.When “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.
Quote In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us. Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Right! If John tells us “ho logos tou theou” – a new name, it could not have been a prior known name, which is supported by the Greek use of “kainon” which means “new,not previously known, not previously used.”
And John is not telling us “ho logos” is a name of God, but that it is a name of something that belongs to God; i.e, “ho logos.”
Quote
Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.Jesus was telling the Jews “before Abraham became (ginomai) I was.” He is referencing the Messianic prophecies. Jesus, in prophecy, preceded Abraham.
That Greek “eimi” can be properly understood to mean “was” is supported by at least two verses in which “eimi” is translated
“was,” the 1st is found in Luke 19:22 “And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [eimi] was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:” [Eimi is present active 1st person singular in this reference – but it is translated to accomodate “knewest” which is pluperfect active] [The pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed and whose effects are felt at a time after the completion but prior to the time of the speaker's present.]And the 2nd is found in II Chron 33:13 – “And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he eimi was God.”
[eimi is present active 3rd person singular][translated “was” to accomodate aorist active “known” [egnw].Quote Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Both John 6:46 and 8:47 reference “He that is of God” –
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save [o` w'n] (he which) is tou theou [of God], he hath seen the Father.John 8:47 [ho wn] (He that is) of [tou theou] (God) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
The person is “of God” that listens to God's words, and does them. Too many Church teachers know only of Jesus as being “of God” but that is not scriptural.
Quote This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father bef
ore He came to earth, if He dind't exist before the World was.The same way Abraham “rejoiced to see my day” and was glad. Abraham paid attention to God's promises, and accepted them as truth. And it was not “before he came to earth” as you suggest. Nothing of the sort is referenced in the referenced verse.
Quote
Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
It is the glory God promised in scripture, “He shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]
Just as we were promised eternal life before the world began -“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [Titus 1:2]
Quote Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father… Sitting on the Throne next to Him. Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was…… Do you really think the sea is going to hold spirits, and the earth is going to hols spirits until resurrection? No my friend, they will hold corrupted bodies until the spirit is reunited with them, to become once more eternally living souls. And that is God's “new heaven and new earth, created by Jesus Christ.
Quote Peace and love Irene Quote And grace and hope. See, Irene? The answers have been right here all this time and you just continue to ignore them, then complain because
“as always, paladin didn't go into those scriptures.”Of course, at the judgment you can always plead “But Lord, Mike told me….” and see what kind of response you get.
Paladin,
Quote But Jehovah is not of a physical nature, for “God is spirit.” Jesus is not “Spirit” but is flesh, of his father David. I agree as I am not implying God has a body. I just lack the vocabulary to express my idea literally and so I strove to use vocabulary that fit Irene’s idea of a spirit body in order to point out a son born of the body of God also God. Since that would make two God’s the idea I addressed is flawed.
Quote But it was Adam and Eve who disobeyed God, in that their “essential character” was able to sin, which God's “essential character” cannot do. Sin is not the offspring of righteousness. I agree though I assumed my hearers would know I was not speaking of the part of God’s character that is unable to be tempted but only that which scripture speaks of when we are instructed to put on a holiness and righteousness like God’s.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 11 2011,12:03) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 10 2011,15:11) Quote
I agree but I will also point out that you are making a similar error it is clear that a Son is of the same kind as his physical Sire and since Jehovah is of the physical God kind then Jesus would also be of the physical God kind just like Jehovah. That obvious point caused the Trinitarians a problem since they also hold there is only one of the God kind. The Trinitarians solved that dilemma by the speculation on one or another three and one ideas.
Kerwin! Just tell me, am I reading this right, that Jehovah is of the physical kind? Just that right now…. I want to see if that is what you mean…Irene
Irene,Your belief is that Jehovah has a spirit body. A body of any type is a physical presence according to what I know and it is the only way I know of speaking of a body as opposed to a naked soul or the bodiless seat of character.
Kerwin! God has a Spiritual Body like Jesus,1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God…
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Peace Irene
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