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To All! Begotten simple means to beget…. or to bring into existing…. Jesus was the firstborn of all creation….the beginning of the creation of God…end of story…
Kathi, of all of your children who is the first begotten?
And which one is the firstborn….END OF STORY……
Irene,
Who does Jesus call His father…God, or all of creation? The answer will tell you what 'group' He is a part of. Also, can you show me any firstborn who begets his own brothers?To know what group a firstborn is a part of, ask the firstborn what group his father is a part of. If Jesus is a part of all creation, then so is his father. We know that His Father is deity and not a part of all creation and therefore so is His natural born Son deity and not a part of all creation.
End of story…
Irene,
All my children are equally human natured as their father is.
Likewise, Jesus is equally deity natured as His father is.Are your children less human natured than Georg or are they equal in this regards?
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2011,14:39)
That is right Irene, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God, not the only created son of God. Begotten is not 'created out of nothing.'
Hmmmm……………yet I was begotten and am also a creation of God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2011,14:39)
Rev 3:14 says nothing about the Son being created.
Prov 8:22 says nothing about the Son being created.
Col 1:15 says nothing about the Son being created.
Sure they do. In fact, all three of those scriptures say that Jesus is the first creation of his God VERY CLEARLY.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 05 2011,14:39)
The disciples say nothing about Him being created in His pre-existent state.
You should read the prayer in Acts 4 again. Peter and John clearly prayed to the One who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. They prayed to this One THROUGH His Holy Servant Jesus Christ. So if this Holy Servant Jesus Christ is not the One they prayed TO, then he has no choice but to be a part of the EVERYTHING created BY that One.Kathi, this is not a “Jesus is God” thread. But if you have proof that Jesus pre-existed, post away.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2011,10:36) Irene,
All my children are equally human natured as their father is.
Likewise, Jesus is equally deity natured as His father is.Are your children less human natured than Georg or are they equal in this regards?
Kathi! Our Children are not equal to us, neither is Jesus, by His own words….
Our Children are their own persons, not the same, a combination of both of us….
Jhn 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming [back] to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, [fn] 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
It has nothing to do with being called God, God is a title and Jehovah God is Jesus Fathers name….the Most High God….Psa 83:18 That they may know that You, whose name alone [is] the LORD, [Are] the Most High over all the earth.
Look at this carefully, it says His name ALONE……
And we sure know who The Word of God's name is, who became Jesus…..
IrenePierre,
Quote ,Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham according to God promise, I agree for it is written:
Quote Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.Quote you see Christ is the only true son of God because he is the promise that God as given the nation of Israel I agree that Jesus is called the one and only Son of God because he is the child of the promise.
Quote so the true sons of God trough Christ are those chosen by him I agree that the true sons of God are chosen by God. I will add that they are chosen from among the sons of the flesh for they that walk after the desires of the flesh are the sons of the flesh.
Quote we also know that those who are not chosen will deny those scriptures and so deny Christ and Gods words It is true that:
Quote John 3
King James Version (KJV)19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.Those that love evil will not believe God’s promise of a righteousness and holiness that is like his. A righteousness that he will create for them in Jesus Christ if they change their ways and choose to believe.
Kerwin! Interesting indeed, you believe that Isaac is the only begotten Son, yet you ignore that Jesus also is……
Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.He is The Word of God, and He will come back as The Word of God…..You agree that it is Jesus in Rev. 19, yet you don't believe it isn't in John 1…. why?
Peace IreneQuote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2011,01:52) kerwin Quote I am not sure what you mean by “we are not the begotten Sons of God”. But since Paladin has addressed one possibility when he pointed out that scripture declares that those that are born of spirit are the begotten sons of God as well as being adopted I will address the idea that you are speaking of the “Son” instead of a “son”. where is the scripture ? we do not follow men like you do.
Pierre
Pierre,Quote 1 John 5:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 John 5
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
and
Quote 1 John 5:18 King James Version (KJV)
18We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Why do you choose not to believe these words of God?
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 06 2011,07:57) Kerwin! Interesting indeed, you believe that Isaac is the only begotten Son, yet you ignore that Jesus also is……
Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.He is The Word of God, and He will come back as The Word of God…..You agree that it is Jesus in Rev. 19, yet you don't believe it isn't in John 1…. why?
Peace Irene
Irene,I do believe that the actions and words of Jesus are always the Word of God expressed in his flesh even as he told Phillip. Why do you not understand that is the result of The Word of God becoming flesh and it is also why Jesus is called the Word of God?
I assure you that Jesus speaks the truth when he teaches us in John 14:24 that his words are the Word of God. Why don't you believe him?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 06 2011,13:16) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 06 2011,07:57) Kerwin! Interesting indeed, you believe that Isaac is the only begotten Son, yet you ignore that Jesus also is……
Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.He is The Word of God, and He will come back as The Word of God…..You agree that it is Jesus in Rev. 19, yet you don't believe it isn't in John 1…. why?
Peace Irene
Irene,I do believe that the actions and words of Jesus are always the Word of God expressed in his flesh even as he told Phillip. Why do you not understand that is the result of The Word of God becoming flesh and it is also why Jesus is called the Word of God?
I assure you that Jesus speaks the truth when he teaches us in John 14:24 that his words are the Word of God. Why don't you believe him?
Kerwin! I believe what Scriptures say…. And in John 1 it says that The Word of God became flesh……. Jesus did exist as a Spirit Being and is called The Word of God in John…. It goes along with that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God inRev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans [fn] write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
and
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
And then through Jesus God created all
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.He was with God Kerwin in the beginning before God created all…. that is what Scriptures say….Why don;t you believe this???
Peace Irene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,21:30) Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 05 2011,08:53) Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Kerwin,I think I'll start with this scripture Irene quoted. Jesus came to do WHAT? REDEEM us? From what?
Think it out, brother.
Mike,Jesus teaches us that himself with these words.
Quote John 8 King James Version (KJV)
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 05 2011,21:28) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 05 2011,00:15) Mike, Your words do not align with the Word of God as you just denied the words of Jesus when he told his disciples that with man it is impossible to please God but with God all things are possible.
Kerwin,Why not tell me which exact words I posted “do not align with the word of God”, and I'll show you the scriptures that prove that claim inaccurate.
mike
Mike,Quote There will NEVER be a human being born of 100% Adam's seed who will be without sin. It is impossible because we are all born into sin, and can not stop sinning no matter how hard we try. That is a half truth as you stopped short of the second part which makes it a whole truth.
Quote Matthew 19 King James Version (KJV)
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
So it is true that the works of righteousness cannot be accomplished by human effort but it is also true that the works of righteousness can be accomplished through a man by the power of God.
Quote That is why He sent His Son, Gene. Not to show us that humans can will themselves not to sin, but to PAY FOR the sins that we cannot possibly control. Once again you speak about the power of men as if you think we are still under the old covenant. The time for such things has passed as the power of God is available to these that believe. It is the power of God that creates the new man that is like God in true righteousness and holiness as the power of man is powerless to do so.
Quote Ephesians 4:24 King James Version (KJV)
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
So for your doctrine to be in line with the Word of God you must speak of what the power of God can do for those that hunger and thirst to be righteous as God is righteous. I assure you God has the power to overcome every temptation that Satan throws at you if you believe and so obey all of Jesus’ instruction on how to receive and live by the Spirit.
Irene,
Quote I believe what Scriptures say…. If that is true then you believe that Jesus the human being both speaks and acts in accordance with the Word of God and so is the Word made flesh. Yet when you state that the Word symbolizes the angel that would come to be named Jesus then you deny that Jesus is the Word made flesh.
Quote He was with God Kerwin in the beginning before God created all…. that is what Scriptures say….Why don’t you believe this??? I have read of the creation event as recorded in Genesis and there is no mention of him there not does your claim agree with scripture that states he was conceived in the inner parts of Mary.
Why don’t you believe scripture that clearly states that Jesus, like John the Baptist, was conceived in his own mother’s inner parts?
Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2011,06:54) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2011,10:37) Terricca…………..Where doe it say we will be MORPHED into another Being in scriptures, that is you rendition of a falsely Preconceived ideology . According to scripture it is about the saving and (RESURRECTION OUR MY BODY) not Morphed into some other type of existence. ” Now if the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead be (IN) you (IT) shall quicken you Mortal (dead) body. Jesus did not have a “different Body” then when He was alive on this earth after his resurrection but the same Body that was Spiritually energized back to life. Where is there any scripture that say our bodies will be any different then we now have except they can not die is the only difference i see in scriptures, and even Adam and Eve could have had a eternal existing physical body had they not sinned or if they had eaten of the tree of Life. AS SCRIPTURE SAY THEY COULD HAVE. NO MORPHING FROM ONE TYPE OF BODY TO ANOTHER , Just a Body the is exactly like our body that lives for ever. For the Lord gives it a Body Just as he pleases and it please Him for us to have Physical Bodies Just like we now have and will have in the future except they will never die. God did not create this earth and its life forms and call it GOOD Just to destory it all and have us drift around in space as some kind of invisible Spirits forever. IMO peace and love……………………………………gene
genewhere does it say that Christ is a MORPHED angel ?
it is you that like to use the word morphed,not me
Pierre
Terricca…………Right, no where in scriptures does it say Jesus was Morphed into any thing or kind of being from another state of existences , So why do you Trinitarians and Preexistences believe he was Morphed then. I think you don't understand what the word Morphed mean Pierre. And why lie and say you preexistences dont say he was a past angel of some kind , or a Past GOD or Demigod. Even the JW's believe Jessu was morphed into a human being and so do you rather you admit it or not. IMOpeace and Love………………………….gene
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 06 2011,16:23) Once again you speak about the power of men as if you think we are still under the old covenant. The time for such things has passed as the power of God is available to these that believe. It is the power of God that creates the new man that is like God in true righteousness and holiness as the power of man is powerless to do so. Quote Ephesians 4:24 King James Version (KJV)
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
So for your doctrine to be in line with the Word of God you must speak of what the power of God can do for those that hunger and thirst to be righteous as God is righteous. I assure you God has the power to overcome every temptation that Satan throws at you if you believe and so obey all of Jesus’ instruction on how to receive and live by the Spirit.
Kerwin………..Right on brother, It is Possible to walk in the Spirit and Righteousness of GOD, with his spirit (intellect) or LOGOS we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds.Jesus died because of the sentence of GOD on all who sin , and this eternal death sentence came upon all men because all have sinned as a result the “GRACE OF GOD” by way of “PAYMENT” FOR OUR SINS, was accomplished BY a MAN the MAN Jesus Christ. Who bore our sins and Purchased us through a work of redemption, He was our Kinsman (a MAN) Redeemer , Since by “MAN” came SIN BY a MAN (Jesus Christ) CAME REDEMPTION.
But that redemption has nothing to do with our Changing it simply removed the Penalty of Death that was on us, and after we accept it, then we recieve the Gift of the HOLY SPIRIT which begins a work (IN) Us, a work of Perfecting Us unto the full Measure Of the Stature of the Anointed Jesus by the same Process that (IT) did (IN) Jesus.
Kerwin you are right we can by the power of GOD come unto perfection. In fact we should be overcoming our sins even in this life. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 07 2011,08:37) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 06 2011,06:54) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2011,10:37) Terricca…………..Where doe it say we will be MORPHED into another Being in scriptures, that is you rendition of a falsely Preconceived ideology . According to scripture it is about the saving and (RESURRECTION OUR MY BODY) not Morphed into some other type of existence. ” Now if the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead be (IN) you (IT) shall quicken you Mortal (dead) body. Jesus did not have a “different Body” then when He was alive on this earth after his resurrection but the same Body that was Spiritually energized back to life. Where is there any scripture that say our bodies will be any different then we now have except they can not die is the only difference i see in scriptures, and even Adam and Eve could have had a eternal existing physical body had they not sinned or if they had eaten of the tree of Life. AS SCRIPTURE SAY THEY COULD HAVE. NO MORPHING FROM ONE TYPE OF BODY TO ANOTHER , Just a Body the is exactly like our body that lives for ever. For the Lord gives it a Body Just as he pleases and it please Him for us to have Physical Bodies Just like we now have and will have in the future except they will never die. God did not create this earth and its life forms and call it GOOD Just to destory it all and have us drift around in space as some kind of invisible Spirits forever. IMO peace and love……………………………………gene
genewhere does it say that Christ is a MORPHED angel ?
it is you that like to use the word morphed,not me
Pierre
Terricca…………Right, no where in scriptures does it say Jesus was Morphed into any thing or kind of being from another state of existences , So why do you Trinitarians and Preexistences believe he was Morphed then. I think you don't understand what the word Morphed mean Pierre. And why lie and say you preexistences dont say he was a past angel of some kind , or a Past GOD or Demigod. Even the JW's believe Jessu was morphed into a human being and so do you rather you admit it or not. IMOpeace and Love………………………….gene
geneis the soul what we all received from God is it flesh or spirit ?
Pierre
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 05 2011,20:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 06 2011,10:36) Irene,
All my children are equally human natured as their father is.
Likewise, Jesus is equally deity natured as His father is.Are your children less human natured than Georg or are they equal in this regards?
Kathi! Our Children are not equal to us, neither is Jesus, by His own words….
Our Children are their own persons, not the same, a combination of both of us….
Jhn 14:28 “You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming [back] to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, [fn] 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
It has nothing to do with being called God, God is a title and Jehovah God is Jesus Fathers name….the Most High God….Psa 83:18 That they may know that You, whose name alone [is] the LORD, [Are] the Most High over all the earth.
Look at this carefully, it says His name ALONE……
And we sure know who The Word of God's name is, who became Jesus…..
Irene
Irene,
My question to you was:Are your children less human natured than Georg or are they equal in this regards?
It is a simple question, Irene. Please answer the question, not some other possible question…this question.
Kathi
Quote
I have read of the creation event as recorded in Genesis and there is no mention of him there not does your claim agree with scripture that states he was conceived in the inner parts of Mary.Why don’t you believe scripture that clearly states that Jesus, like John the Baptist, was conceived in his own mother’s inner parts?
Kerwin!
Of course I believe that Jesus was conceived by Gods Holy Spirit and became man….. That has never been an Issue with me, or others….What we do debate is does Jesus existed before He became a man….
That my friend you need to address, which you have not…..How do you explain what these Scriptures say….. I know what you believe what John says, but that is not what it says….. Jesus who is The Word of God, was in the beginning with God…..Not that He became flesh first and taught us Gods Words….He is The Word of God and is called God, and was with God….you miss that…..and then the only begotten of His Father became flesh…..Also read Phil, 2, He was in the form of God, who is a Spirit Being, and that is what Jesus was before He became a man…..Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS WITH GOD, and THE WORD WAS GOD…
It does not say what you believe….. And then the only begotten Son of God became flesh and dwelt
among us….Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
This Scripture goes along with the other Scriptures that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, and the BEGINNING OF GODS CREATION…Rev. 3:14 and Col. 1:15
And then God created all through Jesus….. this is what Scriptures say……Peace Irene
Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 06 2011,01:53) Paladin! At Baptism we received Gods Holy Spirit and now we are considered the Sons of God, we have received the Spirit of adoption….
John tells us The The Word of God,who became Jesus, is the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER….
we are not begotten of Jesus Father…..Jesus is the ONLY ONE….Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
Rom 8:23 Not only [that], but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Irene
Irene, when are you going to learn that one set of scriptures does not cancel out another?God “begets” our spirits as his children, then “adopts” our bodies to conform to the image of his son. No flesh can please God, bu those who “conform to the image of his dear son” have been adopted thereby.
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