Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[terraricca]

Irene

Quote

Ed! What is important, what I mean is, that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, we are not…..Irene

this is very true and difficult for some to accept.

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 03 2011,21:50)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 03 2011,09:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 04 2011,02:20) Hi Gene, What you are SAYING, and what you can scripturally PROVE seem to be two different things.   Mike…………..Your argument is with Peter and Jesus not me. Yu simply do not believe he was Just a SON of MAN , Just like we all are. that is your Problem not ours. You can think of Jesus anyway you want make him your IDOL if that make you fell good , but it is you who force and distort scriptures all the while claiming that it is others doing it.  You simple are a brain washed Preexistence and a close relative to the Trinitarians also who are also Preexistences very similar to you. They also are SEPARATIST exactly like you. IMO peace and love………………………………..gene It is YOUR argument that is with the scriptures, Gene.  My beliefs align WITH the scriptures 100%. There will NEVER be a human being born of 100% Adam's seed who will be without sin.  It is impossible because we are all born into sin, and can not stop sinning no matter how hard we try.  God realized this.  That is why He sent His Son, Gene.  Not to show us that humans can will themselves not to sin, but to PAY FOR the sins that we cannot possibly control. We are saved, not because Jesus showed us how not to sin, but because he took our sin upon himself, thereby atoning for that sin, and allowing God to overlook/forgive it. You have much to learn, Gene. peace, mike

Mike,

Your words do not align with the Word of God as you just denied the words of Jesus when he told his disciples that with man it is impossible to please God but with God all things are possible.

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Matthew 19 King James Version (KJV) 25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

That is why God revealed his grace in Jesus Christ and created a righteousness and holiness like his that is worn by faith and not by works just as it is written:

Quote

Ephesians 4:24 King James Version (KJV) 24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[kerwin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 04 2011,13:20)

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,12:12) Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 03 2011,20:39) Irene – IF THIS IS TRUE – John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. AND THIS – 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, AND THIS – 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him AND THIS – 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. AND THIS – 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS – Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 03 2011,15:52) we are the Adopted Sons of God…. Not the begotten Sons of God…. Hi Paladin, I believe Irene may be referring to these Scriptures here… Eph.1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will Rom.8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed!  What is important, what I mean is, that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, we are not…..Irene

Irene,

Please read this scripture.

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Hebrews 11 King James Version (KJV) 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Why is Isaac called the only begotten son of Abraham despite the fact Abraham fathered Ismael as well?

[Pastry]

Kerwin
Ismael was not  the Son that God had promised  Abraham and Sarah…Isaac on the other hand is the only Son they produced…..

ALSO we are not the begotten Sons of God, we are the Adopted Sons of God….Jesus is the only begotten of the Father….The Word of God…. you seem to say it is the Word of God in Rev. 19, yet in John 1 you say He is not… But He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….. You need to consider that Jesus is the begotten Son of His Father, and that He is called THE WORD OF GOD….a title, jsut like God is, they both have other names…..Irene

Peace Irene

[Paladin]

Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 04 2011,12:12)

Quote (Paladin @ Sep. 03 2011,20:39) Irene – IF THIS IS TRUE – John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. AND THIS – 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, AND THIS – 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him AND THIS – 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. AND THIS – 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS – Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 03 2011,15:52) we are the Adopted Sons of God…. Not the begotten Sons of God…. Hi Paladin, I believe Irene may be referring to these Scriptures here… Eph.1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will Rom.8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Oh I completely understand WHERE she got it from. I just wonder HOW she can claim we are not Born of God” when so many scriptures teach the opposite perspective.

[Pastry]

Paladin! At Baptism we received Gods Holy Spirit and now we are considered the Sons of God, we have received the Spirit of adoption….
John tells us The The Word of God,who became Jesus, is the ONLY BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER….
we are not begotten of Jesus Father…..Jesus is the ONLY ONE….

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Rom 8:23 Not only [that], but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 05 2011,00:15)

Mike, Your words do not align with the Word of God as you just denied the words of Jesus when he told his disciples that with man it is impossible to please God but with God all things are possible.

Kerwin,

Why not tell me which exact words I posted “do not align with the word of God”, and I'll show you the scriptures that prove that claim inaccurate.

mike

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 04 2011,02:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 03 2011,09:27) Tell us me mike do you want me to list the 70 or so scriptures that say Jesus was a SON of MAN also do you really think they would convince you of anything. I Highly doubt it. You would use you same lame argument and say ” well now does the prohibit him from being a “MORPHED MAN” from a State of and ANGEL as if that state was anything over MANKIND, so around and around we would go solving nothing . Bingo!  Because I DO believe Jesus was the Son of Man.  But that DOESN'T say he didn't pre-exist as a spirit being in the form of God who emptied himself to BECOME that man. And since the “Root” thing proves Jesus was both before AND after David, it proved MY point, not YOURS.   So you are right that we would just go round and round…………unless you actually know of a scripture that DOES prohibit Jesus from pre-existing his human nature. But you don't, because there aren't any.  And THAT, my friend, was what this exercise was all about.  I accept the fact that you concede and admit there is no such scripture.   peace, mike

MIke……….Then tell us where is a scripture that say Jesus was a MORPHED Angel or any other kind of Preexisting Being. I can show where he was a HUMAN BEING and said he was 70 or 80 times, Now you show us where he was a Preexisting being and show his actions as that so called being. Pleas show scriptures and not one you can twist to say what in fact it does not say to fit you “PRECONCEIVED DOGMAS”.

Mike the only one here who has a lot to learn is you and your two co-hearts. But first you will have to let go of all you past preconceived ideologies and then begin to accept the truth of GOD, and that truth is that Jesus never preexisted as any kind of Sentinel being before his berth on this earth, Your thinking that all man kind has sinned is also false, Jesus a MAN did not sin as scriptures says, so at least one “SON OF MAN”, did not sin right? albeit he was the Christos or Anointed one of GOD that prevent Him from sinning, And that had nothing to do with any past association of any kind before his berth into EXISTENCE on this earth, IMO and a very few others also i might add. You Trinitarians and Preexistences and JW”S and some other “RELIGIOUS” sects of “MYSTERY RELIGIONS” believe Jesus was MORPHED Into a Human being from a past state of existence ,even though none of you can agree what that “preexistence” state was, but no true believer believes any of that IMO>

peace and love…………………………………gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 05 2011,08:53)

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Kerwin,

I think I'll start with this scripture Irene quoted. Jesus came to do WHAT? REDEEM us? From what?

Think it out, brother.

[terraricca]

Kerwin

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Why is Isaac called the only begotten son of Abraham despite the fact Abraham fathered Ismael as well?

it seems that you can not understand Gods truth ,Isaac is the only begotten son of Abraham according to God promise,

the promise was made to Sara and Abraham and the only son they had was Isaac,

you see Christ is the only true son of God because he is the promise that God as given the nation of Israel,and so the true sons of God trough Christ are those chosen by him ,this is not to be done by a debate of any other,and only 144k are the complete number as per Revelation 14.1

we also know that those who are not chosen will deny those scriptures and so deny Christ and Gods words,
but many know that the truth lays in the faith of Gods word and so believe to receive eternal live on earth,

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 05 2011,09:30)

MIke……….Then tell us where is a scripture that say Jesus was a MORPHED Angel or any other kind of Preexisting Being.

How many would you like Gene?  Our pre-existent database thread has over 50 of them.

But the god of this age has blinded your mind so you cannot see.

Gene, did you Lord and Savior tell you that he came DOWN from heaven in John 6?  YES.  Did he say that some of those present would see him ascend to where he WAS BEFORE?  YES.  Did some of those later see him ascend to where he WAS BEFORE?  YES.

Gene, if your Lord says HE came DOWN from heaven, why won't you believe him?

I and my “two cohorts” have been repeating these words of Jesus to you for years.  But it's like your brain has a block put there by the god of this age.  We're posting the words clear enough, but it seems that all you hear is Charlie Brown's teacher saying, “Wah, wah, wah………”.

Gene, it is our responsibility to show you the words of your Lord.  We cannot prevent you from calling him a liar.  That is totally on YOU.  And therefore it is YOU who will someday say the words of Matthew 7:22, and hear in reply the words of Matthew 7:23.

Like I said, you have much to learn.  But I can only teach it to you.  I can't FORCE you to learn it.

Now………………….was this post your way of admitting that you, in fact, DON'T have any scriptures to offer that prohibit the pre-existence of Jesus?

mike

[terraricca]

gene

Quote

MIke……….Then tell us where is a scripture that say Jesus was a MORPHED Angel or any other kind of Preexisting Being. I can show where he was a HUMAN BEING and said he was 70 or 80 times, Now you show us where he was a Preexisting being and show his actions as that so called being. Pleas show scriptures and not one you can twist to say what in fact it does not say to fit you “PRECONCEIVED DOGMAS”. Mike the only one here who has a lot to learn is you and your two co-hearts. But first you will have to let go of all you past preconceived ideologies and then begin to accept the truth of GOD, and that truth is that Jesus never preexisted as any kind of Sentinel being before his berth on this earth, Your thinking that all man kind has sinned is also false, Jesus a MAN did not sin as scriptures says, so at least one “SON OF MAN”, did not sin right? albeit he was the Christos or Anointed one of GOD that prevent Him from sinning, And that had nothing to do with any past association of any kind before his berth into EXISTENCE on this earth, IMO and a very few others also i might add. You Trinitarians and Preexistences and JW”S and some other “RELIGIOUS” sects of “MYSTERY RELIGIONS” believe Jesus was MORPHED Into a Human being from a past state of existence ,even though none of you can agree what that “preexistence” state was, but no true believer believes any of that IMO>

when you will be resurrected you then will be according to your view a MORPHED BEING,and will have to let go all your miss concept of false believe you have today if you would like to be saved ,

How can you see what you can not understand ?how can you understand what is not given to you to understand ??

so it will be the resurrection for the judgment that will wake you ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 05 2011,10:10)

when you will be resurrected you then will be according to your view a MORPHED BEING

What about that, Gene?  Why do you think it's possible for God to “morph” humans into spiritual, heavenly beings, but impossible for Him to “morph” a spiritual, heavenly being into a human?  

[GeneBalthrop]

Terricca…………..Where doe it say we will be MORPHED into another Being in scriptures, that is you rendition of a falsely Preconceived ideology . According to scripture it is about the saving and (RESURRECTION OUR MY BODY) not Morphed into some other type of existence. ” Now if the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead be (IN) you (IT) shall quicken you Mortal (dead) body. Jesus did not have a “different Body” then when He was alive on this earth after his resurrection but the same Body that was Spiritually energized back to life. Where is there any scripture that say our bodies will be any different then we now have except they can not die is the only difference i see in scriptures, and even Adam and Eve could have had a eternal existing physical body had they not sinned or if they had eaten of the tree of Life. AS SCRIPTURE SAY THEY COULD HAVE. NO MORPHING FROM ONE TYPE OF BODY TO ANOTHER , Just a Body the is exactly like our body that lives for ever. For the Lord gives it a Body Just as he pleases and it please Him for us to have Physical Bodies Just like we now have and will have in the future except they will never die. God did not create this earth and its life forms and call it GOOD Just to destory it all and have us drift around in space as some kind of invisible Spirits forever. IMO

peace and love……………………………………gene

[kerwin]

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 05 2011,17:33)

Kerwin Ismael was not  the Son that God had promised  Abraham and Sarah…Isaac on the other hand is the only Son they produced….. ALSO we are not the begotten Sons of God, we are the Adopted Sons of God….Jesus is the only begotten of the Father….The Word of God…. you seem to say it is the Word of God in Rev. 19, yet in John 1 you say He is not… But He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….. You need to consider that Jesus is the begotten Son of His Father, and that He is called THE WORD OF GOD….a title, jsut like God is, they both have other names…..Irene Peace Irene

Irene,

So we agree that Isaac is the only legitimate son of Abraham since Abraham was not married to Hagar even thou she also bore him a son.

Since you believe that then why don’t you also believe Jesus is the legitimate son of God’s Spirit, while those that believe are merely adopted sons of his Spirit?

I am not sure what you mean by “we are not the begotten Sons of God”.  But since Paladin has addressed one possibility when he pointed out that scripture declares that those that are born of spirit are the begotten sons of God as well as being adopted I will address the idea that you are speaking of the “Son” instead of a “son”.

Our Sun is called the Sun despite there being many suns in the universe because to us it is the first born among all suns, which is to say preeminent.  In the same way Jesus is preeminent among all God’s spiritual children because it is in him, through him and for him that believers are adopted through their begetting of the Spirit of God.   A “son” does not have the same role as Jesus does in the unity of the spirit.

Jesus is the Word made flesh because the Father lives in him and carries out the Word of God.  That is also why he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19.

[terraricca]

kerwin

Quote

I am not sure what you mean by “we are not the begotten Sons of God”. But since Paladin has addressed one possibility when he pointed out that scripture declares that those that are born of spirit are the begotten sons of God as well as being adopted I will address the idea that you are speaking of the “Son” instead of a “son”.

where is the scripture ? we do not follow men like you do.

Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 06 2011,10:37)

Terricca…………..Where doe it say we will be MORPHED into another Being in scriptures, that is you rendition of a falsely Preconceived ideology .  According to scripture it is about the saving and (RESURRECTION OUR MY BODY) not Morphed  into some other type of existence. ” Now if the Spirit that raised Christ Jesus from the dead be (IN) you (IT) shall quicken you Mortal (dead) body. Jesus did not have a “different Body” then when He was alive on this earth after his resurrection but the same Body that was Spiritually energized back to life.  Where is there any scripture that say our bodies will be any different then we now have except they can not die is the only difference i see in scriptures, and even Adam and Eve could have had a eternal existing physical body had they not sinned or if they had eaten of the tree of Life. AS SCRIPTURE SAY THEY COULD HAVE.  NO MORPHING FROM ONE TYPE OF BODY TO ANOTHER , Just a Body the is exactly like our body that lives for ever.  For the Lord gives it a Body Just as he pleases and it please Him for us  to have Physical Bodies Just like we now have and will have in the future except they will never die. God did not create this earth and its life forms and call it GOOD Just to destory it all and have us drift around in space as some kind of invisible Spirits forever. IMO peace and love……………………………………gene

gene

where does it say that Christ is a MORPHED angel ?

it is you that like to use the word morphed,not me

Pierre

[Pastry]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 06 2011,06:42)

Quote (Pastry @ Sep. 05 2011,17:33) Kerwin Ismael was not  the Son that God had promised  Abraham and Sarah…Isaac on the other hand is the only Son they produced….. ALSO we are not the begotten Sons of God, we are the Adopted Sons of God….Jesus is the only begotten of the Father….The Word of God…. you seem to say it is the Word of God in Rev. 19, yet in John 1 you say He is not… But He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….. You need to consider that Jesus is the begotten Son of His Father, and that He is called THE WORD OF GOD….a title, jsut like God is, they both have other names…..Irene Peace Irene Irene, So we agree that Isaac is the only legitimate son of Abraham since Abraham was not married to Hagar even thou she also bore him a son. Since you believe that then why don’t you also believe Jesus is the legitimate son of God’s Spirit, while those that believe are merely adopted sons of his Spirit? I am not sure what you mean by “we are not the begotten Sons of God”.  But since Paladin has addressed one possibility when he pointed out that scripture declares that those that are born of spirit are the begotten sons of God as well as being adopted I will address the idea that you are speaking of the “Son” instead of a “son”. Our Sun is called the Sun despite there being many suns in the universe because to us it is the first born among all suns, which is to say preeminent.  In the same way Jesus is preeminent among all God’s spiritual children because it is in him, through him and for him that believers are adopted through their begetting of the Spirit of God.   A “son” does not have the same role as Jesus does in the unity of the spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh because the Father lives in him and carries out the Word of God.  That is also why he is called the Word of God in Revelations 19.

Kerwin!  Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God…. we are not begotten of God, that is what I mean….. We are the adopted Sons of God…. Scriptures already given…
And since Jesus is the only begotten Son of His Father, then John 1:1 is Jesus The Word of God too, which you have denied..

Jhn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Kerwin, read this very slowly….
Irene

[Lightenup]

That is right Irene, Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN Son of God, not the only created son of God. Begotten is not 'created out of nothing.' If he were created, then he would not be begotten and have the nature of God with the eternal wisdom and power of God.

Rev 3:14 says nothing about the Son being created.
Prov 8:22 says nothing about the Son being created.
Col 1:15 says nothing about the Son being created.
Jesus, Himself says nothing about being created in His pre-existent state.
The disciples say nothing about Him being created in His pre-existent state.

Only some 'men' teach this…it is a false teaching of men, not of God. Do not promote this or that makes you a false teacher as well.

Fear God, not men. Come out of her.

Irene, read this very slowly.
Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi!  Since you put me on the spot here, I will have to put this article on  here, it is rather long…..
Joined: Oct. 2010
Posted: Aug. 31 2011,09:42 EDIT QUOTE
There are several articles on this subject, however most are bias to the trinity doctrine, so they will not say that Jesus was created….

Colossians 1:15 – Did Jesus Have a Beginning

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. — Colossians 1:15

One claims that Colossians 1:15-20 makes no sense except in the context that there is a trinity. And, yet, in order to get the trinity doctrine into the the verses, one has use the great human spirit of imagination, assumptions based on what is imagined, add those assumptions to, and read those assumptions into, the passage being discussed.

We should note first that “God” is used unipersonally in the phrase “image of the invisible God.” The word “God” is referring, not to three persons, but to one person. The context shows that the word “God” is being used to denote the one person, “God, the Father of our Lord Jesus.” (Colossians 1:13) Again, Colossians 3:1, we read that Jesus sits at the right hand of “God”, and it should be apparent that “God” is there unipersonal, not tripersonal. “God” refers to one person, the God and Father of Jesus. (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) All through the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as the one person: the God and Father of Jesus. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is never, not even once, ever presented as more than one person.

So what the trinitarian has to do is use his spirit of human imagination so as to imagine that “God” refers to the assumed first person of the trinitarian assumptions. Then they have further use his spirit of human imagination to image that “He,” which refers to Jesus, means the imagined second person of the trinitarian assumptions. And thus, in this manner the trinitarian assumptions are added to, and read into, what Paul wrote. In reality, the phrase “image of God” shows that Jesus is not the

The scriptures are quite plain on the fact that Jesus came into existence through a creative act of God. This can be clearly seen from Colossians 1:15, in speaking of Jesus: “who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

Two things in this verse show that Jesus had a beginning and that he was created.

First, its structure shows that he came into living existence by a creative act. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves this, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek a partitive genitive, it includes as a part of itself the thing implied in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it implies that the firstborn one is a part of creation and, accordingly, was created and thus had a beginning.

Additionally, Jesus’ being called “firstborn” of every creature, or of all creation, proves that he came into existence by a creative act, even as those who are the afterborn of creation came into existence by a creative act. Being born of God as the first of the creation spoken of, he is not Yahweh the Almighty who gave this birth to him.

Some claim that his scripture teaches that Christ is over all creation; the ruler of all creation, and thus that Jesus is apart from the class of created beings.

The word “firstborn” is always used in either of two settings: as being the firstborn offspring of a father (as in Genesis 25:13), or as being part of the group being spoken of. Nevertheless even when used as the firstborn offspring of a father, it is still the group of children that the offspring of the father that the firstborn is a member of. For instance, In Exodus 11:5 we find: “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of the group that would make up Pharaoh’s offspring. Still, since Colossians 1:15 is definitely not saying that Jesus is the offspring of creation, making the creation the father, the other alternative is that Jesus is definitely included as part of the creation of which he is firstborn. In no case does “firstborn” mean that the firstborn did not have a beginning, or that the firstborn is not included in the group of which he is firstborn.

See our studies:

Psalm 89:27 – Yahweh’s Firstborn King for study on Psalm 89:27.

Genesis 34:7 – The firstborn nation, Israel

Jeremiah 31:9 – Ephraim as Yahweh’s firstborn

Someone objects that when prototokos (the Greek word translated firstborn in Colossians 1:15) is one of the class referred to, the class is plural , as in Colossians 1:18 and Romans 8:29.

The Greek singular of creation is often used by Paul and others to denote the collective whole of creation. See: Mark 10:6; 13:19; Romans 1:20; 8:19,20,21,22; Revelation 3:14.

Another objection that many put forth is: If Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created”?

One could ask a similar question concerning Paul usage of firstborn in Colossians 1:18, such as why didn’t he say “first raised” from the dead, rather than “firstborn” from the dead?

There is no record that the word protokistos was in common use in Paul’s day. If the word protokistos (which nowhere appears in the Bible) had been used, then the thought would have been shifted from the rights of the one who is firstborn to his being the first created. Paul was not emphasizing that Jesus was the first created, but rather that Jesus held the rights of heirship as the firstborn of all creation. This in no way negates the fact that the firstborn one is included in the group spoken of; it certainly does not provide any reason to change its meaning in this case from the meaning shown in its usage throughout the scriptures.

Nevertheless, Clement uses the terms prototokos and protokistos almost interchangeably. He refers to Christ the “first created” and later the “firstborn”. In his work Stromata Clement calls Christ “first-created” [TON PROTOKTISTON]. He also composes the line [referring to Proverbs 8:22]: TES SOPHIAS TES PROTOKTISTOU TO THEO. [“Wisdom that was the first created of God.”] “Clement repeatedly identifies the Word [John 1:1] with the Wisdom of God [Proverbs 8:22], and yet he refers to Wisdom as the first-created; while in one passage he attached the epithet ‘first-created,’ and in another ‘first-begotten,’ to the Word.  At a later date a sharp distinction was drawn between ‘first-created’ and ‘first-born’ or ‘first-begotten,’ but no such distinction was drawn in the time of Clement, who with the Septuagint rendering of a passage in Proverbs [8:22] before him could have had no misgiving as to the use of these terms. Clement makes a sharp distinction between the Son and the Word who was begotten or created before the rest of creation and the alone Unbegotten God and Father.” [Clement of Alexandria, John Patrick (1914)] Thus, we recognize that while this does not mean that these two terms mean exactly the same thing, it does indicate that the idea of “first created” (protokistos) is included in the word “firstborn” (prototokos).

Additionally, we find this in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue With Trypho: “But this Offspring which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him; even as the Scripture [Proverbs 8:22-31] by Solomon has made clear that he whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten AS A Beginning BEFORE all His creatures and as Offspring of God … We [Christians] know [Christ] to be the first-begot
ten of God, and to be before all creatures. … He is the Son of God and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by His power and will.” Thus Willis B. Shotwell remarks: “The language here is such that it cannot be argued that Justin considered the Logos to be eternal
. The most that can be said about the Logos is that he was created before anything else.” (The Biblical Exegesis of Justin Martyr, London 1965)
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*Evidently Shotwell is using the term “eternal” here to mean an eternal past.

It is claimed that “God begets God” and thus if Jesus is Son of God, that this makes him God Almighty himself. This would limit God’s ability to produce a Son who is not the Supreme Being, based on the limited procreative powers that God placed upon the material creation. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,25) Of course, God is not so limited, and he can bring forth a Son who is not the Supreme Spirit Being that he himself is. Believing that if God has begotten a son, that the son must be equal in every way to the Father who begot him, the trinitarian and many others reason that the Son must also be Supreme Being. And since the scriptures declare only one Supreme Being, they come up with the idea of more than one person in the one Omniscient Supreme Being. Nevertheless, God did not use any kind of reproductive powers to bring forth his Son, as though he were limited like humans and other animals in this respect, so that his Son would, in effect, have to be himself. Yahweh set the limits of reproduction on the animate material creation, not upon himself.

The evidence suggests that the translation is correct in thought where it has Jesus in his prehuman existence stating: “The Lord (Yahweh) created (qanah) me at the beginning of his work (derek), the first of his acts of long ago. Ages (olam) ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.” (Proverbs 8:22, New Revised Standard Version) Thus Jesus had a beginning, and does not have to be God who begot him in order to be the Son of the God who begot, or brought him forth in creation.
See:
Proverbs 8:22,23 Proof that Jesus Existed in an Eternal Past?

God is not so limited as man is, nor did God bring forth a son in the same way that man does. Of course, Jesus, in his prehuman and posthuman existence, is of the same substance as God, that is “spirit”. While in the days of his flesh, Jesus was not a spirit being — he was human, a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less. (Hebrews 2:9; 5:7) Jesus gave up as an offering his being — his soul [Hebrew, nephesh, Greek, psyche], represented in his blood (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23) — as a human, which offering includes the human body that God had prepared for just such an offering for sin. — Isaiah 53:10,12; Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25,34; Luke 22:19,20; John 6:51-56; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 11:25-27; 15:21,22; Romans 5:15-19; Colossians 1:14,22; Hebrews 9:7,12,14,26,28; 10:5-12.

Revelation 3:14

Regarding Revelation 3:14 where Jesus is called “the beginning of the creation of God: He is not called the “beginner” of the creation of God. This would not only be a mistranslation, but would contradict the second part of the expression: “of the creation of God”. If the creative act is God, then God must have at least begun it alone; therefore the Son of God did not begin it. Revelation 3:14 thus proves that God started the creative work by bringing the Logos, God’s firstborn, into existence. This would mean, then, that the Logos, as a created being, is a part of creation and, therefore, was both created and hence had a beginning.

Hebrews 1:6

An additional proof is found in Hebrews 1:6, where Jesus is called Yahweh’s firstborn. Thus these scriptures do prove that God created Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the firstborn of God, the later born ones of God including angels (Job 38:7), Adam and Eve (Luke 3:38) and God’s Gospel-Age children (John 1:12; 3:3,5).

John 3:16

In John 3:16 we find further proof of this. There Jesus is called “the only begotten Son.” The fact that he was begotten proves that Jesus was a creation of Yahweh. The further fact that he is called the only begotten “Son” proves the same thing, for the word “son” implies either a direct or an indirect act of creation. As applied to Jesus it would be a direct creative act of Yahweh — one which Yahweh alone exercised, without the assistance of any other agency. Seeing that Yahweh created everything else indirectly, that is, through the Word (John 1:3), it would therefore be proper to call Jesus the “only begotten.”

John 1:18

This is further corroborated by John 1:18: “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” Some of the best manuscripts call Jesus here “the only begotten God (Mighty One)” instead of “the only begotten Son.” Whichever version we accept makes little difference in the sense, because the only begotten Son is an only begotten God, a mighty one, mightier than all other gods, the Father excepted, and because an only begotten God (mighty one) would be the only begotten Son of the only true Supreme, the Father. (John 17:3) In either case the passage shows Jesus’ pre-human creation by Yahweh and proves that Jesus had a beginning. The same can be said of John 1:14 and 1 John 4:9, for to be begotten implies a beginning and a coming into existence.

Ezekiel 21:30 equates birth as a form of creation.

Cause it to return into its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your birth, will I judge you.

Isaiah 43 equates “being formed” with creation:

Isaiah 43:1 But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine.
Isaiah 43:7 everyone [in reference to the peoples of Israel to be regathered] who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.
Isaiah 43:22 – the people which I formed for myself, that they might set forth my praise.

Also notice:

Isaiah 46:3 – Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne [by me] from their birth, that have been carried from the womb;

Isaiah 49:1 – Listen, isles, to me; and listen, you peoples, from far: Yahweh has called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother has he made mention of my name:

Additionally, we find that Yahweh speaks of Israel as his firstborn:

Exodus 4:22 – You shall tell Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, Israel is my son, my firstborn. See also Deuteronomy 14:1; Jeremiah 31:9; Hosea 11: 1;

Yahweh “made” and formed Jacob (Israel) from the womb.

Isaiah 44:2 – Thus says Yahweh who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you: Don’t be afraid, Jacob my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21 – Remember these things, Jacob, and Israel; for you are my servant: I have formed you; you are my servant: Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 43:1,6,7 – But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine…. I will tell the north, Give up; and to the south, Don’t keep back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7 everyone who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.

Deuteronomy 32:6 – Do you thus requite Yahweh, Foolish people and unwise? Isn’t he your father who has bought you? He has made you, and established you.

Commonly, however, in NT scriptures, the words creation and created are limited in application either to the intelligent creation (which includes the angels as well as humans, powers, principalties in heave
n or earth — Colossians 1:15); things created in heaven and earth (Revelation 5:13; 10:16), or more often, it is limited in application by context to the world of mankind, “the creation” having been subjected to vanity/futility. — Mark 10:6; 13:19; 16:15; Romans 8:19-22; Colossians 1:23; Hebrews 9:11; 2 Peter 3:4.

When Jesus said to “preach the gospel to the whole creation”, was he not referring to the mankind as a creation, but yet also as the offspring of Adam? Paul uses the word “creation” in a similar way in Romans 8:19-22. In Colossians 1:15, however, the word “creation” appears to be applying to all the intelligent creation, both in heaven and earth. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves that Jesus is being here referred to as the firstborn creature, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek partitive genitive, includes as a part of itself the thing given in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it shows that the firstborn one is a part of the creation spoken of and, accordingly, was created.

The expression “firstborn of all creation” is further shown to include Jesus as a creature as can be seen from similar usage in Revelation 1: 5: “firstborn of the dead”. Jesus was indeed dead, a member of the group of which he was the firstborn, and was the first to be fully made alive from the dead, never to die again. That Jesus was actually a member of those dead can be seen a few verses further, for Jesus says: “I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.” (Revelation 1: 18) Later on, Jesus is referred to as the one “who was dead, and has come to life”. (Revelation 2:8) Further, Paul tell us that “Christ died, rose, and lived again.” (Romans 14:9) Jesus is not being spoken of as simply a ruler over the dead. Certainly, however, as being the first to actually be made alive from the dead, he possesses the right of firstborn in that sense also, thus we read: “Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.” (Romans 14:9) Thus Colossians 1:18 tells us: “He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” The usuage of “firstborn”, however, both in Revelation 1:5 as well as Colossians 1: 15, does not mean that the one spoken of as firstborn is not a member of the group of which he the firstborn.

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