Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,06:44)

Until you understand that, you will remain forever linked to defending the trinity doctrine; based upon improper understnading of later events.

He doesnt believe in the Trinity.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 13 2011,19:44)

Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.”

No, here we learn that the word “adam” is used to identify both the first man ever created and the SPECIES of MANKIND.  Mankind is a THEM, while no single human being is a THEM.  God created HIM, Adam, and God created THEM, mankind.

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 13 2011,19:44)

So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney.

  Okay, then WHO is the “one man” that sin entered the world through?

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 13 2011,19:44)

It does not matter if it was poetry, similitude, simile, figure of speech, or overactive imagination, it makes the same point. “And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. 10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.” [Heb 7:9-10]

 So, according to you, the not yet existing Levi literally paid tithes to Melchisedek.  What exactly did Levi give 10% OF?  

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 13 2011,19:44)

The authors point is the same as mine, and that point is, if God spoke it, it is as real as if it already happened. God spoke of things not yet, as though they were [Rom 4:17]

So also according to you, Satan has already been tossed into the abyss?  Or……….let me guess, you don't believe Satan is “real”?

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 13 2011,19:44)

I also do not think you realize that you cannot begin at the back of the book and correct teachings by going from back to front. If you begin at the front of the book, and learn how God is a a singular person singular being, there is no room for a trinity to be established. Until you understand that, you will remain forever linked to defending the trinity doctrine; based upon improper understnading of later events.

Listen up Gene, I have already told you that I battle daily here against trinitarians.  I am NOT one, and fight hard to scripturally undermine that comically flawed man-made doctrine.  So instead of “schooling me” on how poorly I understand the scriptures and how I'm reading them from the wrong direction or whatever, how about you ONLY deal with the issues we're discussing, okay?

Right now, I'm awaiting your answer to WHO this is: 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

We know who three mentions of “one man” refer to in this passage – Jesus Christ.  Who do the other mentions of “one man” and all the mentions of “one sin” and “one trespass” refer to?  (Hint:  Adam is the “first Adam”, and Jesus is the “last Adam”. This might help you to figure out who the “one man” is through whom sin entered the world.)

I anxiously await your learned scriptural knowledge.

mike

P.S.  Gene, see how I just called Paladin “Gene”?  He's not really “Gene”, and it doesn't mean that “Gene” doesn't really exist just because I sarcastically call someone who is doing what you do by your name.  Just like when Jesus said, “Get behind me Satan!”.  

[mikeboll64]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 13 2011,21:36)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,06:44) Until you understand that, you will remain forever linked to defending the trinity doctrine; based upon improper understnading of later events. He doesnt believe in the Trinity.

We've discussed this already three times. But to be fair, he is fielding a lot of posts from a lot of people right now.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 14 2011,09:38)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 13 2011,21:36) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,06:44) Until you understand that, you will remain forever linked to defending the trinity doctrine; based upon improper understnading of later events. He doesnt believe in the Trinity.  We've discussed this already three times.  But to be fair, he is fielding a lot of posts from a lot of people right now.

Clarification on beliefs solves this dilema.

[Ed J]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:06)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 14 2011,02:48) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,02:15) (1) Do you believe Jesus is the seed of the woman of Gen 3:15? (2) Do you believe women have seed? I do. (3)When a man mixes his seed with a woman's seed, a child is produced. (4) God produces it according to the laws He established in Eden. (5) Scripture says David is his father, and I believe David was human. Hi Paladin, OK; my turn! 1) Yes. 2) In Science, it's called an egg. 3) When mans “seed” penetrates a woman's “egg”, fertilization occurs. 4) Correct! 5) ONLY through Mary's linage! (Luke 3:23-31)   …Son of Man!     “HolySpirit” was Jesus' Father (Luke 1:35)      …Son of God! Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH! יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16) (1) Only through Mary's lineage? (2) What part of “throne of His father David” don't you understand? (3) What about “seed of Abraham” don't you understand? (4) What about “For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda” don't you understand? (5) “Only through Mary's lineage?” (6) Really?

Hi Paladin,

1) Yep.

2) Is Luke 20:41-44 missing out of your bible?

3) This question requires calcification?    Please re-word it ? ? ?

4) That is Mary's Father's lineage. (See Luke 3:23-33)

5) Yep. Jesus had NO male lineage. (See Matt.1:18 / Matt.1:20 / Luke 1:35)

6) YES; really!

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[Baker]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,02:02)

Quote (Baker @ Mar. 14 2011,01:24) Paladin!  I read what you said to Mike.  What you are forgetting all of the Scriptures and I could list them, but I won't.  Jesus is the Son of God, and Son of man.  Period.  DNA He left in His flesh.  He is our ransom.  That body is our ransom.  That body does not exist any longer, God did away with it, otherwise the ransom, would not be a ransom….. And you would stay dead once you die…..So why worry about that body.  Or do you believe, what some do, that He was resurrected in the flesh?  If you understand the ransom, you will not think so….. Mar 10:45   For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.   1Ti 2:6   Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.   Peace and love Irene The only thing that needs resurrected is the flesh. The spirit lives on. Jesus said to the apostles who looked upon his resurrected body, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.” [Luke 24:39] What do you suppose the disciples were seeing? You can't see a spirit. “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” [Acts 1:9-11] Scritpure says “flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven,” but Jesus' blood was poured out upon the ground at the cross; he is now flesh and bone, and spirit; and in heaven.

OK  Jesus preexisted His birth here on earth.
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  
If you have doubt that The Word of God is jesus?  Then consider this Scripture

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

I don't think that this description fits any being except Jesus….Jesus will come back as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

John 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

We know that Jesus is a Spirit Being now, and He had that glory with His Father before the world was.

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

I also like Proverbs, however many think it is talking about Wisdom.  Wisdom was always with God, He always has Wisdom.  So it simply does not make sense that wisdom was born.  To me it is talking about Jesus.

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.  

Pro 8:23   I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.  

Pro 8:24   When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.  

Pro 8:25   Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:  

Pro 8:26   While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.  

Pro 8:27   When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:  

Pro 8:28   When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:  

Pro 8:29   When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:  

Pro 8:30   Then I was by him, [as] a master craftsman and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;  

There are more Scriptures over 40, that prove Jesus did preexist His Birth on earth…..
as far as Jesus showing His apostles his flesh, if you limit Jesus yes, but Jesus manifest Himself in order to show them that it was Him…Maria Magdalene did not recognized Jesus, She thought He was the Gardner.  And neither did those Apostles that walked with Jesus.  Only when He broke bread did they recognize Him….. So He was not in the flesh body that He died in.  Again otherwise the ransom would not be in effect…And we would stay dead after we die….Also when He appeared to them,

Luk 24:36 ¶ And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.  

Luk 24:37   But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.  
Why did they think that Jesus was a Spirit?  Some say Ghost….
Use you head my friend and see…..

Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44)

All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12] So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims   “Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam. But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here? “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.” And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man. “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2] So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney.

Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain?

Good post brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 12 2011,06:18)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 12 2011,06:13) Paladin said: Quote All christians are in form God, as God lives in us and influences the changes in our lives. Jesus said, “You have not seen His form” (John 5:37). If all christians are in God form, then we have seen His form and Jesus was confused when He said that we have not seen His form. o.k. Scripture also says we are “made in his image.” Do you see his image anywhere?

You said we are “God form.” If this is true, then how could Jesus have said, “You have NOT seen His form”? Is this not a fair question sir!

The word “form” in Philippians 2 means “substance.” Christ is of the same substance as God (Hebrews 1).

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 13 2011,12:44)

Im just repeating what you just stated. You said “Ha logos” and “theos” are not interchangable.  MY question is why would John use non-interchangable terms to describe the beginning?

Dennison

This is a very fair and good question. John could have used any other word besides “theos”.

WJ

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2011,00:16)

Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44) All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12] So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims   “Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam. But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here? “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.” And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man. “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2] So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney. Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings  and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain? Good post brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

Speculationssssssssssssssssssssss

the bible says that sin entered through Adam, and that Eve was a transgressor.

dude stop adding to the bible its not nessary.

[theodorej]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 15 2011,11:39)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2011,00:16) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44) All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12] So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims   “Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam. But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here? “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.” And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man. “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2] So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney. Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings  and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain? Good post brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene Speculationssssssssssssssssssssss the bible says that sin entered through Adam, and that Eve was a transgressor. dude stop adding to the bible its not nessary.

Greetings forgiven….The very first sin was one of pride and the sinner was the Archangel Lucifer…for he declared that he was to be as the most high….How can adams sin of diobedience measure up to that …the answer is simple it is sin and God cannot exist in the presence of sin..

[Wispring]

Hi everyone,
I am new here,but, have been following threads and posts for a few weeks.
I would like to comment on Paladin's understanding of how the 'seed' is passed
down from generation to generation. My understanding is that what he is saying
is that the progeny seed are intimately linked in that the progeny would not
exist if it were not for the original 'seed' therefore the incarnation would
begin with the original seed. The first 'seed' mentioned in the bible is Eve's
'seed'.To my mind this how Paladin is logically and scripturaly linking the
two.
I also concur with Paladin's reasoning that we(all humans) are created in
the image and form of God and this is not a quality regulated to Jesus Christ alone.
I find Paladin's explanation of the 'new creation' forthright,clear, and
in accordance with the scriptures.
A thought I find interesting is that Paladin's explanation of the 'Logos'
of God harmonizes with what I understood it to be the first time I read it.
By harmonize i mean i understood it to be 'A plan of God' or 'Idea of God'
that God want communicated to his human creation through the human Jesus Christ.
Regarding the 'form of God' business. Everything that is created and has a
form is of God. God created everthing. That is so clear that it brings me
great joy personally to thank God that I exist. To me 'form of God' or 'the
form of God' is a non-issue.I may not be technically 100% correct about this
, but, it certainly isn't confusing in my humble opinion.
In regard to the entire elohim business, I also researched a few years back
and came to the same understanding that Mikeboll64 has.
Regarding the wisdom business, I concur with Paladin's understanding. This is how
I understood it the first time i read it.
Paladin's explanation of the personification of 'the logos of God' in our Lord
Jesus Christ makes perfect sense to me and harmonizes with scripture.
That's all I have to say for for now regarding theological knowledge. I don't
goto any church because this 'theological foundation' is not taught in churches.
I do know that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and life through whom we can have our
eternal salvation with God and that if we simply follow his teachings and example
we ourselves will be given an eternal home in his and God's kingdom.
To make a few items quite clear, I am not a trinitarian it's just too wierd and
confusing. I strongly believe that my God is not a God of confusion to those who
love and serve him. I do not believe God is of the male gender because he created
them both man and women in his image. I use the male term to refer to God in spoken
and written communication because it is easier and traditional.
In conclusion i would like to say that i became a member of this site to learn to more about how to be in
that mind which is also in Jesus Christ like the apostle Paul said in his written life
story of his relationship to Jesus and God.
I would like to thank anyone who reads this and accepts that i consider myself a
creation of God who is just wanting to have friendship and fellowship with others that
just want find thier way back home to God by doing God's will. I would like this to be
learning and growing experience for me. Thank you for taking the precious time that God
has alloted you in this life to read this.

[Ed J]

Hi Wispring,

Welcome to h-net!

You are another breath of fresh air! This site
has a way of getting the more mature Christians!

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 15 2011,08:06)

I also concur with Paladin's reasoning that we(all humans) are created in the image and form of God and this is not a quality regulated to Jesus Christ alone.

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Hi Wispring,
Welcome,

We are in Adams image after he sinned.  The image of God was broken.  

All sin entered through one man.
But the bible says we will be in the IMAGE of his SON.
Romans 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who is the very image of God
Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I wouldnt be so quick to claim that we ALL are in the Image of God, when the truth is only through Christ is that possible.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (theodorej @ Mar. 15 2011,06:26)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 15 2011,11:39) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 15 2011,00:16) Quote (Paladin @ Mar. 14 2011,12:44) All that nonsense only serves to demonstrate your lack of bible knowledge, my friend, and it does not help your argument at all. We know that the doctrine you just quoted claims sin comes down through Adam, and not the woman. That is because of ignorance, and nothing else. Look at how scripture tells such a different story that what you just laid out. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” [Rom 5:12] So, everyobdy agrees and claps their hands and reclaims   “Yup! Just what we said,l sin by one man.” But no one defined “one man” – just assumed it means Adam. But scripture tells us Eve sinned first, not Adam, so is there a problem here? “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” Only if you get ahead of the story and don't begin at the beginning. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” [Gen 1:27] Here, God tells us “man” is a “them” not just a “Him.” And god further tells us Adam is not just the name of the man. “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.” [Gen 5:1-2] So, when God says sin entered by one man, Adam, he includes Adam and Eve. All the rest is simply badly studied doctrine. All that cockamamie stuff about “orignal sin” and “sin is inherited through the male, and all the rest of it, is pure baloney. Paladin ……….Good Post right on brother. Eve was indeed the first to transgress the command of GOD, not Adam. And the first (BORN) man to sin was not Adam or Eve Either but CAIN was the first (BORN) of mankind to Sin.Adam and Eve were Created beings  and Not Born beings but Cain was the first Born human being. And what is also interesting is that you don't see the word Sin mentioned anywhere until We get to Cain. the “mark” put on him may have been the first human born of man to have sinned. Jesus when addressing this said your Farther (satan) was a Lier and a Murderer in the beginning. Could this referring to Cain? Good post brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene Speculationssssssssssssssssssssss the bible says that sin entered through Adam, and that Eve was a transgressor. dude stop adding to the bible its not nessary. Greetings forgiven….The very first sin was one of pride and the sinner was the Archangel Lucifer…for he declared that he was to be as the most high….How can adams sin of diobedience measure up to that …the answer is simple it is sin and God cannot exist in the presence of sin..

“God cannot exist in the presence of sin..”

So if your carnal, than God is not in you.

God also says he is the creator of good and evil.

Also, Ezekial and Isaiah were talking about kings not an angel. (Numbers if your out their somehwere, I turned in that subject)
And Jesus himself, said that Satan was a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Perhaps he was created to do the evil, he was meant to do.

[SimplyForgiven]

Wispring said:

Quote

I do know that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and life through whom we can have our eternal salvation with God and that if we simply follow his teachings and example

Where is that stated in the bible?
Doesnt the bible state we must die and be born again?
That we MUST know God our father and Jesus christ whom he sent?
That we must be willing to hate our family or else we cannot be his diciples?

I dont believe Eternal salvation is based on following an example.
Than what was the purpose of Jesus dieing than?
it would be in vain, if we simply had to follow an example that we could never do.
WE cant impress God, therefore we needed Jesus.

(not that im being hostile, but im treating you just like i would treat anyone else )

[Wispring]

Hi SF,
By example i mean stuff like loving one another as he loves us, by realizing the greatest thing one friend can do for another is die for them, by living a life as a servant of God and such. I don't mean by making my life your life or anyone's life a re-run of Jesus' life. He had his life to live we each have our own. In fact Jesus said we should love our neighbors as ourselves and I am certain that he also means our family members as well. To my mind the hate your family thing was a rhetorical statement used to emphasize the great love are to give to God while serving him.

[mikeangel]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Mar. 15 2011,19:04)

Wispring said: Quote I do know that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and life through whom we can have our eternal salvation with God and that if we simply follow his teachings and example Where is that stated in the bible? Doesnt the bible state we must die and be born again? That we MUST know God our father and Jesus christ whom he sent? That we must be willing to hate our family or else we cannot be his diciples? I dont believe Eternal salvation is based on following an example. Than what was the purpose of Jesus dieing than? it would be in vain, if we simply had to follow an example that we could never do. WE cant impress God, therefore we needed Jesus. (not that im being hostile, but im treating you just like i would treat anyone else )

I agree with SF. We tryto follow Jesus' teaching and example, but we being human fall short. thats where belief in Jesus comes in. If we believe in him being Gods son and have love in our hearts we will have grace, even when we fall short of following his teachings/examples. Welcome Wispring. Peace and love Mark.

[Ed J]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 15 2011,08:06)

I also concur with Paladin's reasoning that we(all humans) are created in the image and form of God and this is not a quality regulated to Jesus Christ alone.

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2011,11:24)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2011,10:18) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 15 2011,08:31)  Adam was the prototype and Eve came from him. Hi T8, You draw a very interesting analogy for us all here. Could we not also consider Jesus our “prototype”, and then we would all come from him, as was the case with Adam? (1Cor.8:6) 1Cor.8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Your brother in Christ, Jesus! Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Yes Edj, I believe you can. Jesus is after all called the Second Adam. For the head of man is Christ. The head of Christ is God. The head of the woman is the man. So if the woman is the image of the man, and Christ is the image of God, then are we all not an images of God? The image (Christ), and an image of the image (man) as well as an image of an image of an image (woman) is still the image of God. It may not matter how many reflections there are as the image is still maintained.

Thanks T8,

Then we “DO” agree on this important biblical doctrine!
Perhaps you could start a thread on this for the others?

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (Wispring @ Mar. 15 2011,21:00)

Hi SF, By example i mean stuff like loving one another as he loves us, by realizing the greatest thing one friend can do for another is die for them, by living a life as a servant of God and such. I don't mean by making my life your life or anyone's life a re-run of Jesus' life. He had his life to live we each have our own. In fact Jesus said we should love our neighbors as ourselves and I am certain that he also means our family members as well. To my mind the hate your family thing was a rhetorical statement used to emphasize the great love are to give to God while serving him.

Hi Wispring,

Hate is a mistranslation; it really “IS LOVE LESS”   …in Luke 14:26!
This is why a “Strong's Concordance” is needed for the English bible scholar.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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