Do spirits have bodies?

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,11:17)

Hi Irene, sorry, but I don't seem to be able to find anything on the internet that give the definition you give. Please can you post where you got it from. and also how Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians has anything to do with “Celestial beings, Divine Heaven or Heavenly hosts. Paul doesn't mention any of those things. Paul mentions Celestial bodies as “Sun, Moon and stars” and indeed that what ALL DICTIONARIES say “Look up “CELESTIAL BODIES” – not “CELESTIAL” by itself. Sorry, Irene, you need to maintain CONTEXT else we can all change words and terms and then apply them to our ideas – and that would be wrong!!! Sorry, I mean, Paul says “CELESTIAL BODIES” but you posted a definition of “CELESTIAL” only. Please post a definition of “Celestial Body” – please… I see from previous posting  in this thread that that was a central point of confusion. Also, Irene, Do Spirits have SEED? Do Spirits procreate? [qoute]Mat 22:29-30: “Jesus answered and said to them, ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are AS the angels of God in heaven.” (This referring to being married and having children).[/quote]

I only goggled celestial, but look at these Scriptures. There are
several definition of celestial and terrestrial. Take your pick. What really matters is that there are Spiritual bodies….

1Cr 15:42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Cr 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2011,11:47)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 03 2011,06:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2011,06:07) Pierre, I have a better and more “to the point” question for you, Georg, Irene and David. Do you believe that Jesus LIED to and DECEIVED his followers by claiming he was NOT a spirit when he really was?  YES or NO? mike Mike!   Would anyone of us say NO,  i don't think so.  But why did you asked that question?   Peace Irene Hi Irene, I ask because of this scripture: Luke 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” So, if Jesus really WAS a spirit with a fake, manifested body when he said this, don't you think that would have been deceitful for him to mislead them into thinking he WASN'T a spirit when he really was? So that's why I ask:  Do you think Jesus would have LIED to them like that? peace and love, mike

Mike! OK You know what, I am getting really tired about our disagreement here. Lets do again what we did before. Lets agree that we disagree. We do agree on the most important that Jesus is a Spirit being now…..
Peace to you Irene

[Istari]

To Mikeboll64,

Since reading your posts I feel your are extremely deceitful. Sorry to say this – but your posts are not of a spiritual nature.

Irene did not say that Jesus was lying. It is you who are saying what Irene did not say. And in fact, your posts don't make any sense…seeing with a fresh eye instead of how the others have been drawn in to know you means an outsider sees what the close in forgiving others don't see – or fear to see.

It has been said, and it is quite clear from reading your back posts on this matter – that you have massively changed your stance – you tried to claim human logic of “Spirits MUST have bodies” almost as if you were begging people to agree with you and you called people out on issues that were clearly answered but not to your satisfaction (your prerogative, yes, but be mindful that you cause anxiety in that one who has posted truth and you poo-poo it – Mikeboll64, what does “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of Truth” mean to you?
Needless to say you will say that you don't care because you only want to get to the truth…don't you see how improper that sounds?

This last post you ask Irene a question that she does not even claim issue with – why? It is clear that you realise your error and trying to recover by accusing Irene of not understanding what you meant.

Is it better to ASK Irene WHAT she thinks rather than you tell her what she thinks and then you correct her on the error that you created and put her name to!!!

[Istari]

Irene,

Can you post me definitions of “Celestial Bodies” as spoken of by Paul.

Thanks.

(Irene, what is the problem with posting what you clearly believe…Post the proof of your Godly belief: “CELESTIAL BODIES” as spoken of by Paul – and in context – Please – thanks)

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,12:26)

To Mikeboll64, Since reading your posts I feel your are extremely deceitful. Sorry to say this – but your posts are not of a spiritual nature. Irene did not say that Jesus was lying. It is you who are saying what Irene did not say. And in fact, your posts don't make any sense…seeing with a fresh eye instead of how the others have been drawn in to know you means an outsider sees what the close in forgiving others don't see – or fear to see. It has been said, and it is quite clear from reading your back posts on this matter – that you have massively changed your stance – you tried to claim human logic of “Spirits MUST have bodies” almost as if you were begging people to agree with you and you called people out on issues that were clearly answered but not to your satisfaction (your prerogative, yes, but be mindful that you cause anxiety in that one who has posted truth and you poo-poo it – Mikeboll64, what does “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of Truth” mean to you? Needless to say you will say that you don't care because you only want to get to the truth…don't you see how improper that sounds? This last post you ask Irene a question that she does not even claim issue with – why? It is clear that you realise your error and trying to recover by accusing Irene of not understanding what you meant. Is it better to ASK Irene WHAT she thinks rather than you tell her what she thinks and then you correct her on the error that you created and put her name to!!!

Istari! No, no Mike is not like that. We have agreed on most subjects. I think you are getting to wrong idea of His posts.
Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,12:33)

Irene, Can you post me definitions of “Celestial Bodies” as spoken of by Paul. Thanks. (Irene, what is the problem with posting what you clearly believe…Post the proof of your Godly belief: “CELESTIAL BODIES” as spoken of by Paul – and in context – Please – thanks)

OK
Related phrases: celestial sphere celestial navigation celestial body celestial equator celestial bodies celestial mechanics celestial coordinates celestial object north celestial pole ceres celestial legend

Definitions of celestial on the Web:

of or relating to the sky; “celestial map”; “a heavenly body”
relating to or inhabiting a divine heaven; “celestial beings”; “heavenly hosts”
of heaven or the spirit; “celestial peace”; “ethereal melodies”; “the supernal happiness of a quiet death”
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The Celestials are a group of fictional characters that appear in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The characters first appear in Eternals #1 (July 1976) and were created by writer-artist Jack Kirby.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(comics)

In the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game, celestials are a class of creatures and monsters known as outsiders who are of wholly good alignment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

Celestial was a term used to describe Chinese emigrants in the United States, Canada and Australia during the 19th century. The term was widely used in the popular mass media of the day.”,” New York Times (1857-Current file); 6 September 1885; pg. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(Chinese)

Celestial is the third Spanish studio album from Mexican Latin pop group RBD.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(RBD_album)

Celestial is an album by American avant-garde metal band Isis, released in 2000 by Escape Artist and Hydra Head Records. It is their third solo release and first full length. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(Isis_album)

celestialness – The state or quality of being celestial
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/celestialness

celestially – In a celestial manner; concerning the heavens
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/celestially

The great circle passing through the north and the south points of the horizon and the observer's zenith.
http://www.maa.mhn.de/Glossary/gloss_m.html

Having to do with the sky, space and astronomy.
spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/spitzer/signs/sign_glossary.shtml

Cosmic or heavenly.
http://www.astrocopia.com/glossary.html

Of or relating to the sky or visible objects in the sky, like the Moon, Sun, planets, comets, asteroids, stars, and galaxies.
http://www.aerospaceguide.net/glossary/index.html

A heavenly body, such as a planet. Celestials are often considered to be beings rather than objects.
http://www.findyourfate.com/faq/c-glossary.htm

Find definitions of celestial in: Dutch English German Italian Korean Portuguese Spanish all languages

Peace Irene

[Istari]

Irene,
I see that you replied stating that you only looked at Spiritual.

Again “Paul says “SPIRITUAL BODIES”

And again again, you say “Celestial” and “Terrestrial” when Paul says “CELESTIAL BODIES” and “TERRESTRIAL BODIES”

Irene, is this why this thread has been going on so long – because posters are changing the words of the gospel writers – for what end? – to misrepresent the word of God out of embarrassment is not Godly nor spiritual –

Irene, can I suggest that you are simply embarrassed to have got wrong the concept that Paul was putting across – but now you have trapped yourself into saying unscriptural things to maintain the wrongful concept you devised.

Why can you not simply say “Spiritual Bodies” and “Celestial Bodies” and “Terrestrial Bodies” like Paul says.
Celestial Bodies, As Paul says : Which are “Sun, Moon and Stars” (Irene, this is school child knowledge)
Terrestrial bodies, like Paul says “Man, animals, fish and Bird”

Irene, at no time does Paul mention “Spirit” – which is what you wrongfully conceive:
This is the seed of Satan – this is how Satan gains a foothold in people by making them embarrassed to proclaim an error! Just keep saying the same thing and hope the other person just gives up…Well, only a little while longer – I have only been here a short while but already i can see that there is little truth in both you and Mikeboll64 – so the two of you can be at each other's throats but I tell you this: Mikeboll64 will beat you because he is FLEXIBLE and bends to new information even if deceitfully done so.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 03 2011,08:01)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2011,06:07) Pierre, I have a better and more “to the point” question for you, Georg, Irene and David. Do you believe that Jesus LIED to and DECEIVED his followers by claiming he was NOT a spirit when he really was?  YES or NO? mike No he did not, when he stood in front of them he was not spirit, he “was” flesh and bones. Georg

Hi Georg,

So you think that while Jesus was in that room, he STOPPED being the spiritual being that he was raised as, and became a REAL, FLESH AND BONE HUMAN BEING for a while?

Look guys, I like all of you and don't want to fight about this anymore.  

I will sum up my position with this:

You all think that Jesus' body had to be “destroyed” or whatever in order for it to be the sacrifice.  But THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT TEACHES THIS.  So it is ONLY your understanding, not scripture, that leads you to believe this way.

I offer you the fact that Jesus' LIFE was also the sacrifice, and yet he received that back.  

I offer you scriptures that say his BODY would NOT see decay.  

I offer you scripture where Jesus tells his followers he is NOT a spirit.  

And I offer you scripture where Jesus shows his followers the holes in his hands and side.

All of these are very good reasons to believe that Jesus was raised in the same body he died in.

I offer you scripture where Paul hopes to have his lowly body TRANSFORMED into the kind of glorious spiritual body Jesus now has.  

I offer you my understanding that Jesus was raised with his same body, and then it was TRANSFORMED upon his ascension into heaven.  

I offer you the logic that Jesus would not have needed a spiritual body for those 40 days he remained on earth.  

And I offer you the logic that as Jesus was dying and said “It has been accomplished”, the sacrifice had been made at that time.  We were not going to become any more forgiven as time went by or as his body decayed or was destroyed.  It was the loss of his life that was the sacrifice.  And if the sacrifice was complete even though he received that life back, then there is no solid logical or scriptural reason to think the body itself had to be destroyed in order for the sacrifice to be completed.  In fact, there are scriptures that say his body WOULDN'T suffer destruction.

In conclusion, my understanding fits in with ALL of the scriptures.  Your understanding leaves holes, and has Jesus lying to his followers.  Your understanding is based on your OPINION that the body MUST be destroyed for the sacrifice to be completed, although there is NO scriptural evidence to support this opinion.

I'm done with this subject now.  And as always, I've have studied many scriptures and have learned much from discussing this subject with you fine folks………so thank you from the bottom of my heart.

peace and love,
mike

[shimmer]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 03 2011,14:49)

I'm done with this subject now.

Good choice Mike. I was about to say something similar to you.

[Istari]

Irene,

I see you refuse to post a definition of Celestial bodies” but insists on posting definition of “Celestial” only.

Is there a problem with “Celestial Bodies” that cause you to be incapable of typing that TERM into 'goggle'?

Irene, why do i feel you are hiding something dreadful -?

Irene, I will ask ONE MORE TIME – and then you will be answerable to GOD himself for your response:

Irene, Please post definitions from credible sources of the terms “CELESTIAL BODIES” and “SPIRITUAL BODIES”.

Irene, to help you…remember that the Spiritual Body can also be obtained from FIGURATIVE DYING… that is, putting off sinful ways in thought and deed, becoming like Christ, pure in thought and act, ever looking to the Father away from the fleshly body (even while existing in the fleshly body) abstaining from (Women / men) and from lustful ideals of this world, jealousy, hate, rivalry, glutton, avarice, pride, etc.
Irene, this is “Putting on the being Spiritual body” (even while still in the flesh).

I hope this help – remember, you will have to answer….oh, yes, both you and George.

[Istari]

Irene,

See, Mikeboll64 has bailed out on you and George when he has realised he has gotten what he want – used you – but you did not use him.

He has used you to get around his deceptive postings to the extent that he his speaking truth – check over his initial and middling posts – they are a hotchpotch of nonesense ideas.

He has summarised them now quite convincingly and and left you and George in the lurch.

However, he cannot reconcile how Jesus gained Spirit form in Heaven after being in Flesh and Bone form on earth but has sidestepped the issue making an bolthole escape before anyone asks him to explain.

You gotta hand it to him Irene, he played you and George to get himself off the hook.

[shimmer]

No, Mike has done good so I think you should just leave him alone.

[Istari]

To Mikeboll64,

It appears you chose a good time to leave this thread.

[Istari]

Shimmer,

What was the “Good” that you say Mikeboll64 did. Is deceit “Good”?

I Mikeboll64 admitted changing his mind and accepted the truth then that is “GOOD”.

If simply stating truth (Incomplete – I might add) is “GOOD” then that is also “GOOD”.

But it is clear from reading his posts that Mikeboll64 will do ANYTHING to get out of admitting an error – and that is not “GOOD”, it is completely against the Spirit of Godliness – and that is definitely “NOT GOOD” for then he has transformed himself into an “Angel of Light” purporting to be telling truth when he knows it is only to get himself off the hook.

Ok, here is a thing then: has this thread ended – is there a resolution to the thread topic/

Surely that is the ending of the thread – Mikeboll64 is bailing without closing the thread – I notice that it is HIS thread… Why is he not closing it with a summary:

“I believe that this discussion is closed because It has clearly been shown – and agreed upon by the majority of poster in this forum – that Spirits [do/do not]* have bodies” (*Delete as applicable)

As far as I can see and read – the only person with a “Spiritual Body” (Misconstrued term by Mikeboll64 for “Spirit Body”) is Jesus Christ.

This hardly 'proves' that SPIRITS have bodies – in fact, since Jesus is “MAN” it even further doesn't 'prove' anything at all.
Even Mikeboll64 says “Jesus is Spirit in Heaven”
And Mikeboll64 says “Jesus has a Spiritual Body on Earth”

But Mikeboll64 can't clear up HOW Jesus is Spirit in Heaven and “Flesh and Bone Body” on Earth so he says what no one in Scriptures says “That Jesus' body was transformed on entering Heaven” when no such thing is ever spoken of in Scriptures – sounds like Mikeboll64 was the “I AM” (The “I WAS”) I see his signature claims that he is god Almighty and no one can take anything away from him.

I think Mikeboll64 needs to be careful what he thinks of himself.

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,13:03)

Irene, I see you refuse to post a definition of Celestial bodies” but insists on posting definition of “Celestial” only. Is there a problem with “Celestial Bodies” that cause you to be incapable of typing that TERM into 'goggle'? Irene, why do i feel you are hiding something dreadful -? Irene, I will ask ONE MORE TIME – and then you will be answerable to GOD himself for your response: Irene, Please post definitions from credible sources of the terms “CELESTIAL BODIES” and “SPIRITUAL BODIES”. Irene, to help you…remember that the Spiritual Body can also be obtained from FIGURATIVE DYING… that is, putting off sinful ways in thought and deed, becoming like Christ, pure in thought and act, ever looking to the Father away from the fleshly body (even while existing in the fleshly body) abstaining from (Women / men) and from lustful ideals of this world, jealousy, hate, rivalry, glutton, avarice, pride, etc. Irene, this is “Putting on the being Spiritual body” (even while still in the flesh). I hope this help – remember, you will have to answer….oh, yes, both you and George.

Tell you what, we all have to stand in front of God and show God who is Love, how we respond to others. I have not responded to you because I have seen how you put a person down. Yes, there is a Spiritual Body, Scripture says so. as far as celestial bodies go, you right. But to me there are bodies in Heaven and on Earth. Scripture also says so. To pick on my dear Husband, who you don;t even know, is very uncalled for…..To pick on Mike is also uncalled for. So far all you have done is make enemies on this site, and not friends. You are not Christ like at all. good bye…..Peace Irene

[Istari]

Irene,

This is EXACTLY what I expected you to say.

Quote

Tell you what, we all have to stand in front of God and show God who is Love, how we respond to others.

Irene, so you think that Jesus was wrong for trashing the people's property who were sullying the Temple of God – Jesus was in a RAGE!!! What would you have said to Jesus afterwards “Bad boy! – you gotta pay for the damage – and answer to GOD for your outrageous behaviour!”

Quote

I have not responded to you because I have seen how you put a person down.

I have not put anyone down – merely spoken a summary of the posts from this thread – When you are IN IT you miss a whole heap. I have the advantage of coming here at the end and can see with unblinkered eyes
And IRENE – THIS IS NOT THE REASON YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO ME.[/QUOTE]

Quote

Yes, there is a Spiritual Body,Scripture says so.

Well, DUH, Irene, of course Scriptures says so – that's what we talking about…
I see you refuse to post a definition of it though – I really  really really wonder why??[/QUOTE]

Quote

as far as celestial bodies go, you right.

Double DUH!! I [didn't] like the way you hid that answer in the middle of the text but OK. Thank you….

Quote

But to me there are bodies in Heaven and on Earth.

Irene, LEAN NOT ON THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING – especially when you know you are being egregious to yourself and against GOD ALMIGHTY.

Quote

Scripture also says so.

HEAVENS (PLURAL) Irene, HEAVENS is not HEAVEN, IRENE. Why do people LOOK UP when refering to God's abode – because of custom. But HEAVEN is not UP or DOWN or LEFT or RIGHT or IN  or OUT about you it is “IN YOU, if you have Godliness”

Quote

To pick on my dear Husband, who you don;t even know, is very uncalled for…..

Your Husband should have led you away from Sinning Irene. He is your HEAD – to HIM is the greater SIN.

Quote

To pick on Mike is also uncalled for.

Mike was also sinning – big time! He ran off when he knew who it was who was speaking about him…
See, I have left him a 'proper Discussion thread Exit note'.

Quote

So far all you have done is make enemies on this site, and not friends.

Who is my Enemy Irene, Truth or Falsity? If I have made enemies of those who speak fallacy then EVER SO GOOD Then!

Quote

You are not Christ like at all.

Irene, and you can recognise a Christ like one can you – you mean someone who gives in to you when you speak falsely – You knew you were speaking falsely about Celestial, Terrestrial and Spiritual – and you call me NOT CHRIST-LIKE!!!

Quote

good bye…..Peace Irene

Now there is falsity right there – PEACE…you use it like a dirty rag and think yourself pious for it…

[kerwin]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,02:18)

Hello, I was reading in Wikipedia (Incarnation of demons) that demons do not possess bodies but could create bodies. Is this the answer to this thread – or was it about something else?

Interesting, I wonder where that belief came from? I have heard different hypothesis but have seen nothing in scripture to conclude anything with certainty. I favor that both demons and Satan have physical bodies of an mortal nature that can only be destroyed by God and are seen or unseen according to God's command. I base that on certain things I have heard in ancient Jewish tradition and what I have read of angels in scripture.

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ Jan. 03 2011,21:23)

Irene, This is EXACTLY what I expected you to say. Quote Tell you what, we all have to stand in front of God and show God who is Love, how we respond to others. Irene, so you think that Jesus was wrong for trashing the people's property who were sullying the Temple of God – Jesus was in a RAGE!!! What would you have said to Jesus afterwards “Bad boy! – you gotta pay for the damage – and answer to GOD for your outrageous behaviour!” Quote I have not responded to you because I have seen how you put a person down. I have not put anyone down – merely spoken a summary of the posts from this thread – When you are IN IT you miss a whole heap. I have the advantage of coming here at the end and can see with unblinkered eyes And IRENE – THIS IS NOT THE REASON YOU DID NOT RESPOND TO ME.[/QUOTE] Quote Yes, there is a Spiritual Body,Scripture says so. Well, DUH, Irene, of course Scriptures says so – that's what we talking about… I see you refuse to post a definition of it though – I really  really really wonder why??[/QUOTE] Quote as far as celestial bodies go, you right. Double DUH!! I [didn't] like the way you hid that answer in the middle of the text but OK. Thank you…. Quote But to me there are bodies in Heaven and on Earth. Irene, LEAN NOT ON THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING – especially when you know you are being egregious to yourself and against GOD ALMIGHTY. Quote Scripture also says so. HEAVENS (PLURAL) Irene, HEAVENS is not HEAVEN, IRENE. Why do people LOOK UP when refering to God's abode – because of custom. But HEAVEN is not UP or DOWN or LEFT or RIGHT or IN  or OUT about you it is “IN YOU, if you have Godliness” Quote To pick on my dear Husband, who you don;t even know, is very uncalled for….. Your Husband should have led you away from Sinning Irene. He is your HEAD – to HIM is the greater SIN. Quote To pick on Mike is also uncalled for. Mike was also sinning – big time! He ran off when he knew who it was who was speaking about him… See, I have left him a 'proper Discussion thread Exit note'. Quote So far all you have done is make enemies on this site, and not friends. Who is my Enemy Irene, Truth or Falsity? If I have made enemies of those who speak fallacy then EVER SO GOOD Then! Quote You are not Christ like at all. Irene, and you can recognise a Christ like one can you – you mean someone who gives in to you when you speak falsely – You knew you were speaking falsely about Celestial, Terrestrial and Spiritual – and you call me NOT CHRIST-LIKE!!! Quote good bye…..Peace Irene Now there is falsity right there – PEACE…you use it like a dirty rag and think yourself pious for it…

Istari

i can see you are a men (are you?) of great talent were I have none.

you are definitely loving kindness in treating all others in your devotion to God or do you ??

just in case you may ask yourself who am I to look on you ,I am no body ,remember i am that no body .

it seems that you feed more on women and seniors ,and hardly see scriptures quotes,

but why would you need any you are presenting yourself has the god in your own right (whatever that may be)

since it seems you know much I am now ready to learn.

Pierre

[Istari]

Hello Kerwin,

hi to you…

I d not believe in WIKIPEDIA – The post was only as a means of introduction to the thread because i didn't know how else to introduce myself into it.

No, I do not believe that Spirit have bodies – and as you say, nothing in Scriptures purports to say so – Despite what this Mikeboll64 character says.

I see this Mikeboll64 character parading his Proofs in the forum but when it comes to proving Spirits have bodies he discounts all his usual haunts of proof – why/ Because like you can see from “Wikipedia” – it actually proves against him – so he doesn't use it.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all dismiss our favourite 'proofer' whenever it doesn't agree with our beliefs – only ever use “Proofs” that agree with out ideals?

See how He and Irene and another, Terrarica ganged up against that guy JustAskin yet here now Irene admits she lied. Should they all apologise to him or should Mikeboll64 just slither away quietly, Irene stomp her feet and use her husband as a shield, and Terrarica just stay quiet?

In the end, no one was trying to prove that Spirits had bodies BECAUSE THEY HAD ALL FAILED – instead they tried to prove that Jesus has a Spiritual Body – in Heaven – and they all failed again because even the staunch minded Mikeboll64 fell away and argued against his companions ending up stating that “Jesus is Spirit in heaven” but trying to worm in that “Jesus has a Spiritual Body”…Therefore Spirit – Body…ha ha Mikeboll64 made me laugh….Tell me was he always the court Jester disguised as a sage? perhaps he says: “I AM”.

[shimmer]

Istari, you say in your post above to me, that Mike was the one who was being deceitful. I see Mike as the one who was learning, others were the ones who were being deceitful, so, Istari, you are seeing thing's wrong here,

[Author]

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