Do spirits have bodies?

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,18:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,06:22)

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

Mike! Since Scriptures say that first the earthly body and then the spiritual body, I would think Jesus was a spirit after His resurrection.

I agree with you since it is scriptural. But the spiritual bodies Paul was talking about was the ones that would be received by those who are resurrected to heaven. Only those would need a spiritual body because only those would become spirit beings. But what of those meek who are resurrected to earth? Do they need a spiritual body to live on earth?

I agree that Jesus NOW has a spiritual body because he is now in God's Kingdom where flesh cannot enter. But he also said that spirits don't have flesh and bone, as you see I have. You say Jesus possibly “manifested” a flesh body for this purpose, but wouldn't that be a deception on his part? He basically told them “I am not a spirit because you can see I have flesh and bones”. If he WAS a spirit who just manifested a body, then it would have been dishonest to make them think he WASN'T a spirit, IMO.

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

And Georg agrees with me…He said how else would He been able to come into a room with locked doors?

He walked on water and did many other things greater than coming into a locked room while he was flesh, right?

Irene, I don't claim to know about this for a fact. And I appreciate being able to discuss my differences in understanding in a mature and respectable way with people like you, Georg, Pierre, and David. It is a far cry from the insults and ridicules I endure from others here.

peace and love,
mike

Mike! Do you know what a ransom is? In order to be our Scarifies His body had to stay dead, and stay in the grave, because it was that body that took on our sins….
Only those that will come up in the first resurrection will be spirit beings. They will reign with Christ here on earth.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The meek will inherit the earth in their flesh bodies….

Peace and love Irene

Irene

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

read this; verse 1 talks about those who recieve authority to judge;to me those are the 144k,since Paul says they will judge the angels,

now look there is other kind of souls,those are the great crowd in front of the throne,those are what mike talks about the meek ones,

they all are in the first resurrection.

and will be with Christ.for 1000years

after that comes the final resurrection the second one, for all men who ever lived good or bad,and Satan will test them before he will be trown in the lake of fire.

Pierre

December 25, 2010 at 3:06 am#229911

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,13:22)

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

Mike! Since Scriptures say that first the earthly body and then the spiritual body, I would think Jesus was a spirit after His resurrection.

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

And Georg agrees with me…He said how else would He been able to come into a room with locked doors?

He walked on water and did many other things greater than coming into a locked room while he was flesh, right?

peace and love,
mike

Mike

one more thing ,how would you think that Jesus could prove that he was resurrected has he as said while he was alive ??

because he told them that the Christ as to suffer and die by the hands of the gentiles,

but he could not take back what was Gods gift

Pierre

December 25, 2010 at 3:24 am#229914

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 25 2010,12:09)

Google the words which you spoke….ransom sacrifice…what comes up ? I knew it…. I knew I had heard it before….Jehovah's witness and Watchtower.

So, you don't believe they have no truths, is that what you are saying??? I didn't get that from them either. My dear Husband told me so….. He has studied Scriptures more then I know anybody I know…also it was them that made me aware of John1:1 and Jesus preexisting which I can proof by Scriptures, just like the ransom….. Georg is sleeping right now, and tomorrow i will have a Scripture about the ransom,.,…people like you, Gene and JA just don't want the truth…..only your interpretation of it,.,., .Irene

December 25, 2010 at 3:25 am#229915

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2010,12:57)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,18:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,06:22)

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

Mike! Since Scriptures say that first the earthly body and then the spiritual body, I would think Jesus was a spirit after His resurrection.

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

And Georg agrees with me…He said how else would He been able to come into a room with locked doors?

He walked on water and did many other things greater than coming into a locked room while he was flesh, right?

peace and love,
mike

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The meek will inherit the earth in their flesh bodies….

Peace and love Irene

Irene

read this; verse 1 talks about those who recieve authority to judge;to me those are the 144k,since Paul says they will judge the angels,

now look there is other kind of souls,those are the great crowd in front of the throne,those are what mike talks about the meek ones,

they all are in the first resurrection.

and will be with Christ.for 1000years

after that comes the final resurrection the second one, for all men who ever lived good or bad,and Satan will test them before he will be trown in the lake of fire.

Pierre

So….did I say something you don't agree on??name it…Irene

December 25, 2010 at 3:36 am#229916

Participant

Shimmer, this is not fromthe JW, which I too found on the Internet. Noticed the Scriptures….

Ransom theory of atonement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Part of a series on
Atonement in
Christianity
Christus Victor
Governmental
Moral influence
Penal substitution
Ransom
Satisfaction
Substitutionary
Limited
Unlimited
v • d • e
The ransom view of the atonement,[1] is one of several doctrines in Christian theology related to the meaning and effect of the death of Jesus Christ. The first major theory of the atonement, it originated in the early Church, particularly in the work of Origen. The theory teaches that the death of Christ was a ransom, usually said to have been paid to Satan, in satisfaction of his just claim on the souls of humanity as a result of sin. Christian philosopher Robin Collins summarized it as follows:

Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the Devil at the time of the Fall; hence, justice required that grace pay the Devil a ransom to free us from the Devil's clutches. God, however, tricked the Devil into accepting Christ's death as a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ's death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan's grip.[2]

“Redeeming” in this case literally means “buying back,” and the ransoming of war captives from slavery was a common practice in the era.
The theory was also based in part on Mark 10:45: “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”; and 1 Timothy 2:5-6: “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time”. The ransom theory was the main view of atonement through the first thousand years of Christian history, though it was never made a required belief.[2] There were some who held different positions, however. The commentary on Romans attributed to Pelagius (who was declared a heretic, though for his view of grace, not his view of atonement) gives a description of the atonement which states that a person's sins have “sold them to death,” and not to the devil, and that these sins alienate them from God, until Jesus, dying, ransomed people from death.[3] The orthodox St. Athanasius proposed a theory of the atonement which similarly states that God wills for sin to lead to death, and so, to remain consistent with Himself must have Jesus die for sins, or have humankind die. This has some similarity to the Satisfaction view, although St. Athanasius emphasized the fact that this death is effective because of our unity with Christ, rather than emphasizing a legal substitution.[4]

St. Anselm, the 11th century Archbishop of Canterbury argued against the ransom view, saying that Satan, being himself a rebel and outlaw, could never have a just claim against humans.[2] The Catholic Encyclopedia calls the idea that God must pay the Devil a ransom “certainly startling, if not revolting.”[5] Philosopher and theologian Keith Ward, among others, pointed out that, under the ransom view, not only was God a debtor but a deceiver as well, since God only pretended to pay the debt.

Others, such as Gustaf Aulén, have suggested that the meaning of the Ransom theory should not be taken in terms of a business transaction (who gets paid), but rather understood as a liberation of human beings from the bondage of sin and death. Aulén's book, Christus Victor, maintained that the Early Church view had been mischaracterized, and proposed a reevaluated Ransom Theory as a superior alternative to Satisfaction Theory.

Anselm himself went on to explicate the satisfaction view of atonement.

Today, the ransom view of atonement is not widely accepted in the West, except by some Anabaptist peace churches and a few theologians in the Word of Faith movement. The Eastern Orthodox Church holds a position which is in some ways similar to it. However, the Orthodox do not have a fully dogmatic view of the atonement. They hold that Christ became Incarnate to restore the Image of God in humanity and to defeat death and sin in the flesh. However, while St. Gregory of Nyssa taught a view similar to the Ransom position, others, such as St. Gregory the Theologian, vigorously denied that Christ was a ransom to the devil.[6] A catechism of the Orthodox Church in America states:

In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of 'payment' and 'ransom' is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He 'paid the price, not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He “paid the price” not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He 'paid the price' not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received 'satisfaction' from His creatures in Him. He 'paid the price' rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He 'paid the price' to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life. (See Romans 5:8 and Galatians 2:4
By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil 'in his own territory' and on 'his own terms.' The 'wages of sin is death'.Romans 6:23 So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will—and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity—He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal.”[7]

[edit] See also
Christus Victor
Atonement (satisfaction view)
[edit] References

December 25, 2010 at 3:50 am#229918

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,20:25)

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2010,12:57)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,18:53)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,06:22)

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

Mike! Since Scriptures say that first the earthly body and then the spiritual body, I would think Jesus was a spirit after His resurrection.

Quote (Irene @ Dec. 25 2010,05:34)

And Georg agrees with me…He said how else would He been able to come into a room with locked doors?

He walked on water and did many other things greater than coming into a locked room while he was flesh, right?

peace and love,
mike

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The meek will inherit the earth in their flesh bodies….

Peace and love Irene

Irene

read this; verse 1 talks about those who recieve authority to judge;to me those are the 144k,since Paul says they will judge the angels,

now look there is other kind of souls,those are the great crowd in front of the throne,those are what mike talks about the meek ones,

they all are in the first resurrection.

and will be with Christ.for 1000years

after that comes the final resurrection the second one, for all men who ever lived good or bad,and Satan will test them before he will be trown in the lake of fire.

Pierre

So….did I say something you don't agree on??name it…Irene

Irene

love you ,i just speak up with you i guess

did i have give you critics?? no

just confirm

Pierre

December 25, 2010 at 4:09 am#229919

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,20:36)

Shimmer, this is not fromthe JW, which I too found on the Internet. Noticed the Scriptures….

Anselm himself went on to explicate the satisfaction view of atonement.

[edit] See also
Christus Victor
Atonement (satisfaction view)
[edit] References

Irene

i read this it is crap and full of deceit and lies

Pierre

December 25, 2010 at 4:45 am#229920

Blocked

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 25 2010,11:32)

Mike you are doing ok but you fear them. You fear looking bad. If you followed the Lord, then you would have no fear of what man thinks of you when you speak truth.

Hi Shimmer,

How do you claim to know my heart? You know very little about me apparently. I don't “fear” David and Pierre and Georg and Irene. I admire them. I look up to them. I don't agree with everything they say all the time, and I address those points as you well know from the Nephilim thread. I don't back down unless I'm showed to be scripturally wrong.

I STRONGLY believe that you and I are right about Jesus being raised in the same body he died in. But when 4 of the people I admire are ALL against me on this one, then it's worth it to me to take baby steps on it and hear them out. That's what I'm doing. I'm not too good to learn from them. I learned about the “flesh and bone” scripture from you. And I altered my understanding because of it.

Don't be so head strong if the others are showing SCRIPTURAL support to what they claim. After all, it's about what the scriptures say, not what WE think.

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 25 2010,11:32)

JA and Gene speak truth with this and I stand on their side with this.

Shimmer, Gene and JA don't even agree about most things in this topic. How can you say you agree with them both? And JA refuses to answer the following points, how about you?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ 1)

1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 NIV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

These scriptures say Jesus is now a SPIRIT.

Galatians 1:1 NIV
Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

Galatians 1:12 NIV
I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Now there's two more that clearly say Jesus is NOT a MAN anymore. And here's the one that clearly says Jesus has a body even though he is NOT A MAN, BUT A SPIRIT:

Philippians 3:21 NIV
who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

Now, what scripture do you use to rail against these 5?

1 Timothy 2 NIV
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

Is Paul saying Jesus is STILL a man in contrast to what he says in the other scriptures? Or is he saying the MAN who WAS sacrificed for us all is NOW the mediator between God and mankind?

JA, take your ONE ambiguous scripture that COULD BE understood to say Jesus is STILL a MAN………..or…………..it COULD BE understood to to say, “The Jesus who is NOW a mediator between us and God is the same Jesus, who AS A MAN, was sacrificed for our sins”, and compare that ONE scripture to the Galatian scriptures where Paul CLEARLY, AND WITHOUT A DOUBT teaches that Jesus is NOT A MAN. Then compare that ONE scripture to the others I've listed that CLEARLY AND WITHOUT A DOUBT say that Jesus is now a SPIRIT.

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 25 2010,11:32)

And likewise I don't care what anyone here thinks of me when it come's to this. I will say what I want and I will walk away when I want.

That sounds like JA. He spouts stuff that he has no intention, desire, or scripture to back up. Then runs away from those of us posting scriptures that prove his understanding to be flawed. And that sounds like what you just described.

You're right, you can do what you want. I personally wouldn't want that reputation. I speak of what I know and can willingly and eagerly defend my understandings of the scriptures. And when I'm shown to be incorrect, I admit it and adjust. But for you to call me “weak” and “afraid” when you won't even attempt to answer David's post is a little unusual, IMO.

peace and love,
mike

December 25, 2010 at 4:53 am#229921

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,11:53)

In order to be our Scarifies His body had to stay dead, and stay in the grave, because it was that body that took on our sins….

Hi Irene,

Okay. So was it a NEW flesh body or his new spiritual body that Jesus was raised from the dead in?

mike

December 25, 2010 at 5:00 am#229922

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 25 2010,13:06)

Mike

one more thing ,how would you think that Jesus could prove that he was resurrected has he as said while he was alive ??

because he told them that the Christ as to suffer and die by the hands of the gentiles,

but he could not take back what was Gods gift

Pierre

Hi Pierre,

All I'm trying to understand is if you think Jesus was raised with a NEW FLESH body, or his SPIRITUAL body.

mike

December 25, 2010 at 5:07 am#229923

Blocked

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,13:36)

Shimmer, this is not fromthe JW, which I too found on the Internet. Noticed the Scriptures….

Ransom theory of atonement

Shimmer,

See what happens when you try to prove you're right just by asserting that the other agrees with the JW's?

That should not be a litmus test around here, and I wish people would stop it. I mean, who cares if “ransom sacrifice” was ONLY used by the JW's? It IS what Jesus was for us, right? Just because the JW's also see things the same way as Irene does is not some kind of “proof” that Irene is wrong, is it? Believe it or not, the JW's have the interpretation of the scriptures correct in more cases than not. So agreeing with the JW's is USUALLY a confirmation that you are understanding scripture correctly – not some kind of sign that you are wrong.

mike

December 25, 2010 at 8:07 am#229932

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….l=beast

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 25 2010,14:55)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,08:55)

Mike,

Yes, the Holy Spirit has a body, the Father.

Georg

Hi Georg,

Are we in agreement now? (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

And with this ?

Quote EdJ The 'antichrist' message is: Jesus is going to come in the flesh;
This 'antichrist' message that is deceiving the whole world is 'A FLESH SECOND COMING' of Jesus!
The world is deceived (by spirit of 'antichrist') into 'thinking' Jesus will (Falsely) make a 'flesh return'!…Unquote EdJ.

December 25, 2010 at 8:19 am#229935

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,14:53)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,11:53)

In order to be our Scarifies His body had to stay dead, and stay in the grave, because it was that body that took on our sins….

Hi Irene,

Okay. So was it a NEW flesh body or his new spiritual body that Jesus was raised from the dead in?

mike

Mike

Jesus was a spirit being before he became man.
Why did he come to die in the first place?
Paul says, the wages of sin is death, not just dying and then live again, permanent death.
When Adam sinned, he was doomed to die and stay dead.
What would have to be done so Adam could live again?
Some one would have to remove his sin from him; Jesus did that.
Jesus, not having sinned, did not deserve to die, but he gave himself as a sacrifice for Adam's sin, he died in his stead by taking Adams sin, and placing it on himself, now Adam is freed from sin, and God can resurrect him.
But what about Jesus? Jesus is now carrying Adams sin; the penalty for sin is still the same, death.
Jesus never sinned, his “mind” was pure, it was his flesh body that took on Adam's sin. It was his flesh body that became the “ransom”, the exchange for Adam.
Jesus was dead for three days, when God raised him up, he gave him back his nature he had before, spirit nature.
Had Jesus been resurrected in a flesh body, it would have been as taking back the ransom.
This change from spirit to flesh, and from flesh to spirit, had no effect on his mind, just as our death will have no effect on our mind when we will be resurrected, we will all be our self.
This is what Job said about the resurrection.

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

Job 33:25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:

This resurrection will come in the millennium, when “ALL” who are in their graves will hear his (Jesus) voice, and come forth.

Georg

December 25, 2010 at 8:36 am#229938

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,17:07)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,13:36)

Shimmer, this is not fromthe JW, which I too found on the Internet. Noticed the Scriptures….

Ransom theory of atonement

Shimmer,

See what happens when you try to prove you're right just by asserting that the other agrees with the JW's?

mike

I know JWs have alot of thing's right. I can also say that Muslims have alot of things right. But does that mean they are completly correct ? I know Catholics, Baptists, etc have alot of things right too. I was watching a documentary the other day, there is this guy from where I live. He spent something like 20 years as a serious drug addict. He was touched by God. God spoke to him. He gave the drugs up. He joined a church. Now he goes around all of the schools and warns them of the dangers in drugs and tells others of what God is and what God does. This to me is admirable. People everywhere with stories to tell. I don't care what church they go to. I hear the words of God and I feel what God has done, and I am often tearfull at things like this. I feel the power of God.

I admire my Mother. We disagree on things, but when it comes to the most important things we agree, and I learn from her. She is an author and has written and published books from a lifetime of studying scripture.

Speaking of my Mother I asked her what she thought 'spiritual body meant' and she said it's a complete person… we are a spiritual body… we have a soul, a spirit, and a body, so are a spiritual body.

And nearly all other Christan people will agree with this… that Jesus was raised from the dead in the flesh, and that after so many days he assended in his glorified body to heaven. And this is the truth and these are the facts.

December 25, 2010 at 8:46 am#229941

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=980

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 25 2010,16:45)

peace and love,
mike

Mike I have answered David's post. I didn't run away from David, I ran away from Terrarica because I had no idea what he was asking me,

God allows me to leave whenever I want to. Some of the things I read here actually make me feel depressed. God is showing me something so I should obey. I leave to find comfort in other Christians who also believe in scripture as I do, on other forums. And you know what ? They don't debate, anything. Jesus said “Peace I leave with you. My peace I give to you;….. Don't let your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful.”

December 25, 2010 at 8:53 am#229943

Ed J

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 25 2010,18:07)

Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 25 2010,14:55)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 25 2010,08:55)

Mike,

Yes, the Holy Spirit has a body, the Father.

Georg

Hi Georg,

Are we in agreement now? (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

And with this ?

Quote EdJ The 'antichrist' message is: Jesus is going to come in the flesh; (——————–)
This 'antichrist' message that is deceiving the whole world is 'A FLESH SECOND COMING' of Jesus!
The world is deceived (by spirit of 'antichrist') into 'thinking' Jesus will (Falsely) make a 'flesh return'!…Unquote EdJ.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….l=beast

Hi Shimmer,

You left something out; was this to mislead?

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,13:04)

The 'antichrist' message is: Jesus is going to come in the flesh; but the scripture says he already came. (Click Here)
This 'antichrist' message that is deceiving the whole world is 'A FLESH SECOND COMING' of Jesus!
“The second coming of Jesus” that “The Bible” refers to in John 14:23 occurred at “Pentecost”!
The world is deceived (by spirit of 'antichrist') into 'thinking' Jesus will (Falsely) make a 'flesh return'!

FACT IS: JESUS RETURNED AT “PENTECOST”!

Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

December 25, 2010 at 9:07 am#229947