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Quote (Baker @ Dec. 17 2010,10:38) Mike! I am thinking that it just does not matter what Scripture you or I put in front of them, they are blind and don't want to see it, or can't see it….I am so done with all of this….Peace and love to you Irene
I'm with you sister!
Pierre already beat us to the punch and got out of here a week ago. When my beliefs align with yours and Pierre's, I know I'm on the right track. And I've told Shimmer that before in a pm, so you know I'm not just “kissing up”.
Like I said a couple of days ago: I'm glad both you and Pierre are here.
peace and love,
mikeHi Shimmer,
I just noticed you edited your answers a little. But I think my response will still make sense.
Also, do you belive angels have wings?
mike
To all,
I choose to believe God and not man and it is our so called rational culture that chooses not to believe in ghosts. That is not true of scripture as the example of King Saul having the Witch of Endor summon the ghost of Samuel shows. No one has put forward any evidence that the ghost who questioned why Saul summoned him and then told a true prophecy is anything but the shade Scripture claims him to be.
Instead they accuse me of being immature or hallucinating. Atheist makes similar accusations with just as much evidence to back them up.
In addition I brought up the issue of Hades/Sheol and have come to what these doubters of ghosts think the state of being the dead within it is if not ghosts. Do these doubters instead believe that Sheol/Hades does not exist?
These are distractions for the reason I brought up ghosts in this thread. One reason I brought it up is that ghosts are human beings with spiritual bodies. Those that state Jesus ascended as a spirit body are denying his resurrection as they are basically stating he is the soul of a dead human being. Another reason is that Jesus ate and allowed himself to be touched to prove he was not a ghost.
Don’t forget that as Christians we believe in that which is not observed in any way but with the Spirit.
Just Askin,
I know what scripture states about both ghosts and angels and if you cannot support your claims by scripture I view them at best as speculation. I have already addressed the issue of ghosts enough in this thread but as for angels read of the two that visited Lot. They are recorded as eating with him. I cannot state that they actually need the food as scripture does not say. I can state they ate with him as that is what is written.
I see no evidence in scripture to support the idea that an angel can put on or off a physical body at will though some Jews believe it is so. As far as I have discerned that is merely speculation. What I do know is that a spirit can be present and still not be seen but even then they seem to have a body, i.e. the case of Balaam.
Adam,
I will tell you what I know. Jesus was merely expressing a Jewish belief known to exist at that time. His does vary from the version I heard in that he definitely made it clear there was not an angel boatman who allowed travel between the two parts.
Paradise in the cases I mentioned seems to be equivalent to the Bosom of Abraham concept and may not be the same as Eden. Jesus may have thus been telling the thief he would see him in the Bosom of Abraham that day.
Pierre,
I am confident that the body Jesus had after his resurrection was not the same as that he had before his resurrection because he was transformed from a natural body to a supernatural one. There is more difference between the two than between the flesh of a human and that of a shark as both humans and sharks have perishable bodies. Unlike you, I believe those wounds were actual wounds in the new body but they may well have been kept there for symbolic purposes. I know such wounds of no real effect to the spiritual flesh that simply cannot be killed or harmed though it may appear to be as it is imperishable.
Jesus did sacrifice his natural body as you state but then he was given a spiritual body that looked in many ways the same as the old but which had different characteristics than it. The last supper is clearly symbolic in nature and established communion so we could remember Jesus by celebrating the holiday at certain times. It is not literal in nature.
Jesus’ body was buried, i.e. eaten, on the same day it was offered.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,23:46) To all, I choose to believe God and not man and it is our so called rational culture that chooses not to believe in ghosts. That is not true of scripture as the example of King Saul having the Witch of Endor summon the ghost of Samuel shows. No one has put forward any evidence that the ghost who questioned why Saul summoned him and then told a true prophecy is anything but the shade Scripture claims him to be.
Instead they accuse me of being immature or hallucinating. Atheist makes similar accusations with just as much evidence to back them up.
In addition I brought up the issue of Hades/Sheol and have come to what these doubters of ghosts think the state of being the dead within it is if not ghosts. Do these doubters instead believe that Sheol/Hades does not exist?
These are distractions for the reason I brought up ghosts in this thread. One reason I brought it up is that ghosts are human beings with spiritual bodies. Those that state Jesus ascended as a spirit body are denying his resurrection as they are basically stating he is the soul of a dead human being. Another reason is that Jesus ate and allowed himself to be touched to prove he was not a ghost.
Don’t forget that as Christians we believe in that which is not observed in any way but with the Spirit.
kerwinSeeking After A Familiar Spirit
1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
God strongly condemned in scripture what Saul was going to do:
Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.So, knowing that God condemned it, Saul still went to consult with a witch, a spirit medium and a necromancer (one who claims to consult with the dead).
1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1 Sam 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1 Sam 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.Now, consider an important point. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.
Note also that God was no longer speaking to Saul, and God's prophets were not speaking with Saul (1 Sam 28:6). So now, are we to believe that a witch was going to thwart the will of God by conjuring up Samuel from the grave, so that Saul could speak with a prophet of God, against the explicit will of God? No witch could do such a thing.
Remember also, the witch at Endor was known for having a familiar spirit. What is a familiar spirit anyway? It is not an angel of God, surely, because of God's strong condemnation against consulting with them. A familiar spirit is a demonic spirit, a fallen angel in league with Satan. This is what the woman at Endor had, communication with a demon, a demon who was quite capable of impersonating Samuel. It was NOT Samuel who appeared at her summons, it was a demon masquerading as Samuel. The first thing that the demon did was expose Saul's masquerade to the witch:
1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
Now exposed to the witch, Saul continues to consult her:
1 Sam 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Sam 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.Note that Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw. So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven). King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of God. So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:
1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Again, note that Samuel is represented as coming up from the grave, not down from heaven. Saul also affirms that he knows that God refuses to communicate with him any more by any means, yet he expected to get guidance from a dead prophet of God via a familiar (demonic) spirit. The counsel Saul gets predicts the defeat of Israel and his imminent death, along with his sons:
1 Sam 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
1 Sam 28:17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
1 Sam 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
1 Sam 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
1 Sam 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.Conclusion
King Saul was looking for help from the witch of Endor, to contact someone in the grave, a dead Samuel, so that he could know from God how he could gain a victory over the Philistines. But God was not talking to Saul any more. By knowing what the Bible teaches about the state of the dea
d, and the circumstances regarding Saul's relationship with God at the time, we can be quite certain that it was not actually Samuel raised from the dead speaking to him, but a fallen angel, a demonic spirit. That Saul even attempted this séance with a spirit medium (witch) was an abomination, a further rebellion against God, and Saul paid for his rebellion with his life.1 Chr 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it;
1 Chr 10:14 And inquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.The words in italics in verse 13 are supplied by the translator, as they are not in the original text. So if you drop those words, it reads:
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to inquire;
So the passage above clearly states, Saul communicated with a demonic spirit, not Samuel.
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What Really Happens When You Die?
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Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,23:52) Pierre, I am confident that the body Jesus had after his resurrection was not the same as that he had before his resurrection because he was transformed from a natural body to a supernatural one. There is more difference between the two than between the flesh of a human and that of a shark as both humans and sharks have perishable bodies. Unlike you, I believe those wounds were actual wounds in the new body but they may well have been kept there for symbolic purposes. I know such wounds of no real effect to the spiritual flesh that simply cannot be killed or harmed though it may appear to be as it is imperishable.
Jesus did sacrifice his natural body as you state but then he was given a spiritual body that looked in many ways the same as the old but which had different characteristics than it. The last supper is clearly symbolic in nature and established communion so we could remember Jesus by celebrating the holiday at certain times. It is not literal in nature.
Jesus’ body was buried, i.e. eaten, on the same day it was offered.
KerwinChrist body who looks like men after his dead is a earthly body
no one has in heaven such a body.
and that is because the glory in heaven is greather than on earth.
this is the description of Satan;‘You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.the glory of Christ;;
Rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
Rev 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Rev 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp swordkerwin,do you really think all of that is in the body of a man??
Christ body today is heavenly and is so powerful we could not look at him,so pur he is.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 17 2010,11:19) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 17 2010,10:38) Mike! I am thinking that it just does not matter what Scripture you or I put in front of them, they are blind and don't want to see it, or can't see it….I am so done with all of this….Peace and love to you Irene
I'm with you sister! Pierre already beat us to the punch and got out of here a week ago. When my beliefs align with yours and Pierre's, I know I'm on the right track. And I've told Shimmer that before in a pm, so you know I'm not just “kissing up”.
Like I said a couple of days ago: I'm glad both you and Pierre are here.
peace and love,
mike
I know Mike, none of us is imagining what we believe. It is according to Scriptures. It is so sad to me though, that some will not understand. I also realize that the understanding is from God. if He wants to blind a person, He has a reason why…..So we just have to stop responding to them. In due time all will understand….
I will put my trust in God and let it go…….and I am glad you are here too…..It is good to know that we don't stand alone in this….And it also looks like Kerwin is coming around and believes in Spiritual bodies…….
Peace and love Irene.Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 17 2010,16:50) Adam, I will tell you what I know. Jesus was merely expressing a Jewish belief known to exist at that time. His does vary from the version I heard in that he definitely made it clear there was not an angel boatman who allowed travel between the two parts.
Paradise in the cases I mentioned seems to be equivalent to the Bosom of Abraham concept and may not be the same as Eden. Jesus may have thus been telling the thief he would see him in the Bosom of Abraham that day.
Hi brother Kerwin,
Thanks for your honesty in replying my post. Yes you may be right in saying that Jesus was talking of the traditions available at his time but they are not supported by Hebrew Bible.Again you quoted this;
“Jesus’ body was buried, i.e. eaten, on the same day it was offered.”
It is also wrong as per Acts 2:
“31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.”
Jesus body apparently was not decayed as per this writer. It seems he rose with similar body with crucifixion wounds and holes which is confirmed by doubting Thomas in John 20.
I still think N.T writers are not unanimous in narrating Jesus' resurrection.
Thanks and peace to you
AdamKerwin, I was just saying how I see things. I personally don't believe in ghosts. I hope I didn't upset you. I apologize if I did.
Mike – You asked if I believe Angels have wings. I said I do. But It's just the way I see it. Whether it's true or not I have no idea.
Irene, I can't see why divisions should be caused between people here just because they see thing's different. First it's Trinity, then it's preexistence, then it's begotten, now it's spirit's, and I think it's stupid. You should all stop it, and understand people see thing's different.
Kerwin,
You are have a juvenile mind that seeks to bring demons into the world.
Again, I warn you…. And may God decide to protect you from them when they come to you, seeing you have a juvenile mind.
To All,
See Mike, Terra and Irene have realised their great blunderbuster error BUT are too proud to admit it.
They have squirmed about, twisting Scriotures left and right, redefining the meaning of everyday words, in a futile attempt to deceive others into seeing their false views.
So, having failed SPECTACULARLY, these three Kings have been made a 'Public Spectacle' (Find the Book, Chapter and Verse for this quote. The presenter, i will not leave off from critique for one page.)
Did I not offer to welcome them in the fold of Truth, if they willing acquiesced…?
Now what do you see them doing?
Running like scared rabbits down their rabbit holes when the Eagle of Truth flies over their heads….yes, Truth, goes over their heads…
Mike, you are to blame, for Terra and Irene would have followed where you led them….and you led them wrong…bad boy!!!
Seeing that you know you were misleading them, not by accident, nor in innocence, but by desparate need for support, there is only one thing left to say:
! The Lord Rebuke You !
Shimmer,
Normally I would praise your post. You are a 'leveller' and that is good.However, in this instance, levelling is not the point, else we would all tend toward believing false claims and be too tentative in allowing false teachings into the thread…remember the 'Luke Warm Church of Asia Minor' examplelised by Jesus in the Book of Revelation?
In this thread, there are basically three arguments…and they actually depart in the main from the thread topic.
Because Mikeboll can find NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO SPIRITS HAVING BODIES (the thread topic…remember…), he has found THE INE SINGLE REFERENCE TO MENTIONS 'SPIRIT' AND 'BODY' in the same sentence.
And even that does not say 'Spirit Body' nor 'Body of a Spirit'…but 'Spiritual body'.
This 'Spiritual body' is not 'a body OF a Spirit' but 'a body that is not sinful, that is godly and pure…not subject to dying, incurruptible'.
This is opposed to the 'Natural body', which is 'ungodly, subject to desease, carnal desires, sin and death by curruption'
This the contrast that Paul makes, the Natural body dies, and is raised a Spiritual body.
Shimmer, what the subject has brought out is the depth to which some members here will go to deceive themselves and others.
Be kind, then, you say to me…
Ok, they were in error of their thoughts…but the feverishness withwhich they sort to defend their deseased ideas shouts loudly of what other matters they have false thoughts about and are willing to try to pursuade others to become like them.
Mikeboll, has been shown clearly where God says 'Begotten' to his Son…but, will not concede for the sake of his PRIDE….but he is a tough critter…and no amount of scaped knees, even to the bone, will shift him…he's like the kid, beaten in a fist-fight, battered, bruised, bloody-nosed, broken teeth, black-eyed, ripped clothes, who, as the winner walks away, shouts, 'Thwat dwidn't hurth…thyou thwink thwat hurth…thyou punth lithe a fwairy. Ith thwat all thyou goth…' before collapsing in a heap, a comma, a maliase of dispair…
This is the Demon, that Gene speaks of, who flies around finding arid places to rest…orwhatever…
So, Shimmer, beware of the posts of these three kings who have been publically humiliated.
Irene, Terrestial means….?? Ha ha…
Terra, can you do anything other than copy and paste huge chunks of Scriptures?
Mike….nothing to say…except have a nice day…hope your spirit finds some water to 'wet it's lips'…Kerwin, why does a Spirit need food?
What is 'Spiritual food'? oh, did i meant 'Spirit food'..!Quote (JustAskin @ Dec. 17 2010,14:10) Kerwin, You are have a juvenile mind that seeks to bring demons into the world.
Again, I warn you…. And may God decide to protect you from them when they come to you, seeing you have a juvenile mind.
Is that you answer when challenged to support your view through the use of scripture. Are you afraid that you cannot do so? If so what does that say about you?I am asking you once more to show in scripture where it states the Witch of Endor summoned a demon and not a ghost.
Put up or say no more for why should I believe a man like you rather than God.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 17 2010,18:19) Kerwin, I was just saying how I see things. I personally don't believe in ghosts. I hope I didn't upset you. I apologize if I did. Mike – You asked if I believe Angels have wings. I said I do. But It's just the way I see it. Whether it's true or not I have no idea.
Irene, I can't see why divisions should be caused between people here just because they see thing's different. First it's Trinity, then it's preexistence, then it's begotten, now it's spirit's, and I think it's stupid. You should all stop it, and understand people see thing's different.
Shimmer! I don't think it is stupid, since all that I do is give you and others Scriptures. If you don't want to believe in the Scriptures, fine. Just remember whatever you say to me or others, you will one day give account for why!!!!! so do I….I will always go by Scriptures and not what any man or woman will say….Also we are not here to tell jokes, but to debate Scriptures. If you can't take the heat, bale out….
Peace IreneQuote (JustAskin @ Dec. 17 2010,19:21) To All, See Mike, Terra and Irene have realised their great blunderbuster error BUT are too proud to admit it.
They have squirmed about, twisting Scriotures left and right, redefining the meaning of everyday words, in a futile attempt to deceive others into seeing their false views.
So, having failed SPECTACULARLY, these three Kings have been made a 'Public Spectacle' (Find the Book, Chapter and Verse for this quote. The presenter, i will not leave off from critique for one page.)
Did I not offer to welcome them in the fold of Truth, if they willing acquiesced…?
Now what do you see them doing?
Running like scared rabbits down their rabbit holes when the Eagle of Truth flies over their heads….yes, Truth, goes over their heads…
Mike, you are to blame, for Terra and Irene would have followed where you led them….and you led them wrong…bad boy!!!
Seeing that you know you were misleading them, not by accident, nor in innocence, but by desparate need for support, there is only one thing left to say:
! The Lord Rebuke You !
JA One more time. Irene has not followed anyone. Irene followes Scripures. JA has not even looked up what celestial means. He also does not go by Scriptures, which I or Mike or Pierre has given to him. What a shame…..All he seems to know what to does is accuse others of whatever comes in into his mind…..
IreneQuote (shimmer @ Dec. 17 2010,18:19) Kerwin, I was just saying how I see things. I personally don't believe in ghosts. I hope I didn't upset you. I apologize if I did. Mike – You asked if I believe Angels have wings. I said I do. But It's just the way I see it. Whether it's true or not I have no idea.
Irene, I can't see why divisions should be caused between people here just because they see thing's different. First it's Trinity, then it's preexistence, then it's begotten, now it's spirit's, and I think it's stupid. You should all stop it, and understand people see thing's different.
I think you are right Sis Karmarie. Different people see scriptures differently that is the reason why there are thousands of denominations and sects in Christianity. I don't blame them because they are all human beings with limited understanding. But the paradox of Christianity is blame game.Thanks and love to you
Adam
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