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Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2012,00:45) Mike, I haven't actually ever made the point that Jesus was a spirit without his body. After all, he did show the holes in his hands if I remember rightly.
As I understood your post, you were speaking as if Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being. But Luke 24:37 makes clear he was not yet the “life-giving spirit” he eventually became.Perhaps I misunderstood your point.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,14:07) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2012,00:45) Mike, I haven't actually ever made the point that Jesus was a spirit without his body. After all, he did show the holes in his hands if I remember rightly.
As I understood your post, you were speaking as if Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being. But Luke 24:37 makes clear he was not yet the “life-giving spirit” he eventually became.Perhaps I misunderstood your point.
Mikewhat would you say here;
Mk 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
Mk 16:13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.it seems that Christ could and did change form or body at will
if so then he would not have been resurrected with his original dead body right ??
Hi Gene.
On this, we agree: that no evidence has been shown by any 'pro-Spirit body' poster. It is simply a matter of them creating new Scriptures of their own. They refuse to acknowledge their misunderstanding by way of not commenting on posts that speak truth against them. They therefore also acknowledge their misunderstanding by way of not commenting on posts that speak truth against them. Because to comment against truth that speaks against them drives them into making deeper or further sideways errors of willful misunderstanding.
For instance, it has been shown categorically that the body of Jesus raised up from the dead by its renewal by the Holy Spirit, is the (sinful) same body that he died in.
Here is the problem:
if they say that it was not the same body then they call Jesus a liar for Jesus told them it as 'He'.
But if they say it was the same body then they admit it is the spiritual body spoken of by Paul.
So, they say (and please do not get caught out by this!) that it was a 'New' body. Gene, it was NOT a New body – but a Re-Newed body.It may not seem to many that it matters but it does. Someone said that 'Grammar' cannot save me.
Believe me, if Someone does not understand 'Grammar' then delusional words, redefined and altered words, substituted and sneaked in our removed words, would lead to death of their truth.
Let's see how this works:
'Spiritual Body' changed to 'Spirit Body' (This is just so wrong)
'Inherit' changed to 'Enter' (This is a common error)
'Spiritual' claimed to be 'belonging to a Spirit' but no credible evidence could be shown when asked for. When it was then pointed out that 'Spiritual' pertained to 'Mankind becoming more Holy' and credible evidence after credible evidence shown, there was stuttering silence from the opposers!
'Spiritual Tent' was claimed to be evidence of 'Body of a Spirit' but withdrawn without proper acknowledgement when it was shown that it meant the same as 'Spiritual Body'.
It was claimed that Jesus' body was 'transformed' into Spirit on his ascension into the cloud. No Scripture states any such event – plus 'Flesh and Bone' cannot be 'Transformed' into Spirit – however, it can be dematerialised and materialised (How will the Holy Spirit recreate the body of those who are cremated and their ashes scattered by the wind or the waters?)
It is claimed that Paul desires a body like that Jesus has 'Now in Heaven' – but there is no Scripture that uses those words nor implies such a desire (The relevant verses state that Paul is anxious for his body to be transformed (sinful corruptible weak body to unsinful incorruptible powerful body) WHEN Jesus returns to the physical world (in a physical body) At the last Trumpet. Jesus will Return to Earth in glory at the last Trumpet and all eyes shall see him – he will be Physical.
Can you see Jesus Now? Why not? Because he is Spirit.
Is there a detectable pattern of failure of valid evidence by the 'Spirit Body' promoters? Most certainly and resoundingly, 'Yes'!!
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2012,14:44) Mike what would you say here;
Mk 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
Mk 16:13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.it seems that Christ could and did change form or body at will
if so then he would not have been resurrected with his original dead body right ??
Pierre,We've already discussed this before. Jesus also walked on water in his earthly body. Philip was transported from one place to another in his earthly body. Jesus shone as bright as the sun in his earthly body (the transfiguration).
Surely God is able to bring the earthly body of Jesus into a locked room. Surely He is able to open or close other human's eyes to either recognize him or not.
Using our imagination to solve scriptures like the ones you've posted do not compare to Jesus plainly and clearly telling his disciples that he was NOT a spirit in Luke 24.
peace,
mikeHi Mikeboll.
Thanks for your response.You said:
Quote I see. So you interpret this passage to be teaching that the bodiless Jesus will “put on” his body again when he returns, and Paul, who will be living in heaven, hopes to have his body be like the one Jesus will “put on” when he comes to earth? Mikeboll, can you see Jesus Now?
Quote That's a bit of a reach, don't you think? Is there any SCRIPTURAL reason to think Paul WASN'T speaking of the body Jesus has RIGHT NOW IN HEAVEN? Mikeboll, Paul says that he is awaiting the return of Jesus and at that time he will be raised from the dead in his Renewed body just like the prototype body of Jesus. The prototype is the renewed original body. Jesus showed the disciples his prototype personal body which still had the holes from the nails and the spear. Each person raised will also have prototyped personal bodies. People will recognise each others Perfect Spiritual bodies. Paul had an affliction and was anxious to be rid of it by the renewal of his body. Jesus' wounds are a Testament to his overcoming the world. It is 'a personal Trophy', which is symbolised in Revelations by 'the Lamb as if slaughtered'.
Quote Where does your understanding that Jesus is bodiless now, but will put on a “earth body” when he returns come from? And why would Paul, whose hope it is to live in heaven, want a “earth body” if he is going to be living in heaven? Mikeboll, how many times are you asking this one question?
Mikeboll, can you see Jesus now?
Why not?
What about when he comes back with the clouds – will you see him then?
Why will that be?Toby, could Balaam see the angel as soon as the donkey could? Why not?
Don't ask crazy questions. No, none of us can see Jesus right now. Nor can we see any angels that might be hovering right above us at any given time. We can see them when God opens our eyes to see them – until then, they are invisible to us.
We will see Jesus in his new, spiritual body when he returns because all eyes will be opened to see him.
Toby, your explanation about Paul wanting a body like the one Jesus NOW HAS IN HEAVEN makes no sense, nor is one bit of it scriptural. And this is why I didn't want to waste my time doing a debate with you.
Either show me FROM SCRIPTURE that Jesus no longer has a body in heaven, or let it go.
Hi Mikeboll.
You said,
Quote Either show me FROM SCRIPTURE that Jesus no longer has a body in heaven, or let it go. Heaven is the realm of the Spirit – do you agree?
Jesus is a Spirit in Heaven – do you agree?
A Spirit is Incorporeal (Bodiless) – do you agree?So, Mikeboll, Spirits with bodies are all around us but we just can't see them?
How many are there? Legions and Legions you could say?
There are so many – you may not be able to see them i guess you are saying, but then again since they are in a body as you say – Have you bumped into one?Why Not?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,10:07) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2012,00:45) Mike, I haven't actually ever made the point that Jesus was a spirit without his body. After all, he did show the holes in his hands if I remember rightly.
As I understood your post, you were speaking as if Jesus was raised from the dead as a spirit being. But Luke 24:37 makes clear he was not yet the “life-giving spirit” he eventually became.Perhaps I misunderstood your point.
I have always been open minded about this subject.I had a friend who I had a lot of respect for in the faith, who taught me (about 25 years ago) that Jesus had a body of flesh and bones and hence not being flesh and blood meant that he could enter Heaven with that body. I was rather perplexed as to why this was important, and to some degree still am.
My only point to him was why does scripture say flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, when it would be more efficient and perhaps accurate to say blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, because he obviously believes that flesh can enter the Kingdom of God.
My thoughts are that the new body is either made of spirit or that it is the flesh body but not subject to physical laws by reason of being spiritual, thereby enabling our bodies to do things that our present shell cannot do.
I have also wondered about heavenly angels that came to Earth. Often they appeared as men and we know that they are spirits. If we are going to be like them and we are going to have our lowly bodies transformed into a body like Christ's, then does that mean in Heaven our body is in a different state to that when we are on Earth?
I know this is a mystery to some degree because it is written, so I realise by reason of being a mystery that there is plenty of room for speculation. To this end, I wonder why people are so certain on their view and get upset with other views. To this day I have never figured out the appeal of this subject and why the conversation gets heated when talking about it.
Hi Mike.
You said:
Quote Toby, your explanation about Paul wanting a body like the one Jesus NOW HAS IN HEAVEN makes no sense, nor is one bit of it scriptural. And this is why I didn't want to waste my time doing a debate with you. Mikeboll, are you saying that Scriptures and Paul do not say that the dead will be raised up in from the dead and be changed?
And that those living at the time will be changed in an instant – in the twinkling of an eye?When Jesus rose up in the air, was he a human being in a flesh and bone body?
When he entered the cloud, was he still flesh and bone?Scriptures says that it is on Jesus' return that the dead are raised up.
What is it that is dead that is raised up? Is it not the Flesh and Bone body? Is the Spirit raised up?
Where is the Spirit while the body is decaying? Is that Spirit in a body? Is that body it's own body? If you say 'yes' then why does it need a Flesh and bone body?Quote (toby @ Mar. 02 2012,17:34) Heaven is the realm of the Spirit – do you agree?
Yes.Quote (toby @ Mar. 02 2012,17:34) Jesus is a Spirit in Heaven – do you agree?
Yes.Quote (toby @ Mar. 02 2012,17:34) A Spirit is Incorporeal (Bodiless) – do you agree?
Absolutely not. And this is what our whole disagreement hinges upon, Toby. What SCRIPTURE tells you that spirit beings are incorporeal? I know of many scriptures that describe the bodies of spirit beings in heaven. So how is it that you just up and claim that spirits are incorporeal.Quote (toby @ Mar. 02 2012,17:34) Have you bumped into one? Why Not?
There are hummingbirds all around us here in Arizona, yet I've never bumped into one of them either.Nor have I ever bumped into a whale, a shark, or an elephant.
This is what I consider a “crazy question”.
Toby, if we are to do this question by question thing, then you must also answer mine.
Tell me about Balaam. Why did the donkey see the angel before Balaam could see him? Did he manifest two different bodies?
t8, 1 Cor 15 answers a question put to Paul: With what kind of bodies will the dead be raised?
Paul's answer is: Spiritual bodies, like those of heaven have.
I share your bewilderment about the claim that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, but flesh and bone can – as there are some here on HN who have made the same claim to me.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,16:15) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 02 2012,14:44) Mike what would you say here;
Mk 16:12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country.
Mk 16:13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.it seems that Christ could and did change form or body at will
if so then he would not have been resurrected with his original dead body right ??
Pierre,We've already discussed this before. Jesus also walked on water in his earthly body. Philip was transported from one place to another in his earthly body. Jesus shone as bright as the sun in his earthly body (the transfiguration).
Surely God is able to bring the earthly body of Jesus into a locked room. Surely He is able to open or close other human's eyes to either recognize him or not.
Using our imagination to solve scriptures like the ones you've posted do not compare to Jesus plainly and clearly telling his disciples that he was NOT a spirit in Luke 24.
peace,
mike
Mikeagreed but the walking on water was before his dead ,the change in form is after his dead,and this mean something,
and the fact that many of his disciples did not recognize him at first but recognized him wen he talked
like I say this is some thing that let me think that he was resurrected has a spirit being after mission accomplish
Pierre,
Perhaps the future thinking of men is why Jesus didn't mince words when he said, “A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone, as you see I have.”
He is your Lord, Pierre…………….believe him.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,18:24) Pierre, Perhaps the future thinking of men is why Jesus didn't mince words when he said, “A spirit does NOT have flesh and bone, as you see I have.”
He is your Lord, Pierre…………….believe him.
MikeI believe what Christ said,this does not change any thing,if a angel comes in the flesh he would say the same thing no?
but wen he is not in a man form then what is he
?Dunno if heavenly angels came in flesh, but I think they are mistaken for men sometimes.
There seems to be a difference between descriptions of glorious angels and then others that seem like us.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 03 2012,18:51) What angel ever came in the flesh? Scripture?
Ge 18:2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Ge 18:3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by.
Ge 18:4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree.
Ge 18:5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way—now that you have come to your servant.”
“Very well,” they answered, “do as you say.”Ge 18:33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.
Ge 19:1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
Mikeboll,
You said:
Quote Tell me about Balaam. Why did the donkey see the angel before Balaam could see him? Did he manifest two different bodies? This question has already been answered during a discussion with Terraricca. It was expounded there. Maybe you did not read it, but OK…
Let me ask you, rhetorically, do you know what that episode was about? Do you know why the Angel was sent to oppose Balaam (you are not being asked to respond here – just consider the episode for background reasons).
Balaam was blinded by his desire to do wrong. Balaam was setting out to do a mighty deed, against what God had told him to do. This so-strong desire to do wrong, is what made him not able to see the Angel. His eyes were closed to the wrong that he was about to do.
The donkey had done and was not doing any wrong, and was not blinded to the presence of the Angel that stood in it's way.
After beating the donkey, metaphorically 'Flogging his horse to death', and the strange exchange of dialogue with the donkey, Balaam realised the sin he was about to commit. Thereby, his eyes were opened and he now saw the Angel.
So great was the sin that Balaam was about to commit, that the Angel displayed a Sword as a symbol of the destruction (Death) that would have come to Balaam if he continued to oppose the Angel. In reality, the Angel did not need a sword to kill Balaam. The point of the sword was symbolic.
So, Mikeboll, you should now have your eyes opened a little more to the truth of the story of Balaam, the donkey, and the Angel.
Mikeboll, have you ever heard the term, 'Blinded by Sin'? Have you ever been so determined that something you believed 'must be as you believe it', that nothing anyone said to you could change your mind?
Then, in the blink of your mind's eye, you see the error of your thoughts and come to a realisation of the truth that was 'always there in front of you'. And, that you had opposed and dismissed all those 'Angels' who had brought the truth to you?
Now we can turn to the aspect of the Body of the Angel.
Well, it certainly did not have two bodies – one visible and one invisible.
The Spirit is manifested in the physical world. A Spirit is incorporeal, which means it is bodiless. In order for it to be seen it must be manifested in the physical world.
The Holy Spirit was manifested at the baptism of Jesus in the manner of a Dove (A light fluttering like a gentle breeze from a Dove's wings as those of that time and place would know of in their everyday lives).
The Holy Spirit was also manifested at Pentecost, this time as fire, lightening and a great wind… (Did Jesus not say that the Spirit was like the Wind. Here are two references to Spirit as Wind).
Hi All,
Despite what has been said concerning misconceptions, it appears there is still a major misunderstanding concerning the phrase 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God'.
In fact, not only is this 'Off Topic' in this thread (Why is it being discussed here when someone could start a thread on it: hint hint!) but the saying/verse has nothing to do with Flesh and Blood (Entering) Heaven.
The clue is in the word 'Inherit' – why is this being confused with 'Enter'.
If someone 'Inherits' an expensive automobile, they don't say that they 'Entered' an expensive automobile, do they? Others who were not 'Inheritors' could equally 'Enter' into that automobile.They would say, though, that they 'Adopted' or 'Took On' the responsibility for, or are full owner Keepers of that automobile.
No. 'Flesh and Blood' as used here is a term known to the Jews as meaning 'The Sinful person', or 'The Carnal Nature'.
Therefore, a Sinful person cannot 'Inherit' the Kingdom of God.
'Put off the Flesh and put on the Spiritual'.
When reading or alluding to the verse or saying 'Flesh and Blood' cannot 'Inherit' the kingdom of God, please try not to re-interpret the word 'Inherit' as 'Enter'.
If it were meant to say the latter then it would have to have been written as 'Flesh and blood cannot 'Enter Into' the kingdom of God' (note the requirement to add the word 'into')
Also, there is no difference between 'Flesh and Bone' and 'Flesh and Blood'.
Jesus rightly stated that 'His Body' was Flesh and Bone because he had 'Sacrificed His Blood' for the atonement of 'Sin', as everyone who calls themselves Christian, should know.
It should be noted that all Scriptures refer to the latter term of 'Flesh and Blood' at all other times except for the statement made by Jesus as pertaining to his very special personal 'Triumphal' circumstance.
I hope this clears up the little misconception:
'The sinful man cannot attain to the realm of the sinless'
'Corruption cannot inherit 'Incorruption'(Why is it so much easier to not misinterpret this latter point in 1 Corinth 15:50 when it is just a reemphasise of the prior saying:
Why is easy to not say 'Corruption cannot 'Enter Incorruption'?
Yet the two parts of the verse are saying the same thing?!!So Toby,
You concur that I was right? It was not that the angel manifested two different bodies, but that God at first opened the donkey's eyes, and later Balaam's, right?
Add that to the case of Elisha asking God to open the eyes of his assistant to see the chariots of fire.
I haven't EVER read about an angel manifesting a body on earth, but above are two different examples of God opening the eyes of flesh beings so they can SEE the angels that were already there.
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