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Wm,
You say that I'm twisting 1 Cor 15:45, which tells us that Jesus became a spirit. You once asked for a supporting scripture. How about this one:
17 Now the Lord is that spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Will that one work for you?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:16) Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?
Wm?
Toby/Mike,
I did not say it, Jesus said it. Show me justification for an undeclared “change” at the ascension, and I'll reconsider my position, otherwise I'll stick with what Jesus said.Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,11:47) Wm, You say that I'm twisting 1 Cor 15:45, which tells us that Jesus became a spirit. You once asked for a supporting scripture. How about this one:
17 Now the Lord is that spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
Will that one work for you?
That will work for me. Let me share this with you you talk about freedom. The bible says he that comits sin is of the devil. It also says he that is born of God doth not comit sin for the seed of God remainith in him and HE CANNOT SIN What does that mean? Cannot if you cannot then you cannot. Either you beleive that and you are free from the law or you dont believe that and you are under the law. Which are you? I am free from sin and death as death gets it strength from the law and I am not under the law. Talk about being free. You or noone else can put me under the law, but how am I not under the lwaw? By understanding THE REVEALATION OF JESUS CHRIST.Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 03 2012,11:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:16) Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?
Wm?
Toby/Mike,
I did not say it, Jesus said it. Show me justification for an undeclared “change” at the ascension, and I'll reconsider my position, otherwise I'll stick with what Jesus said.Wm
fOOD FOR THOUGHT:FOOD FOR THOUGHT Where was Jesus Christ when he looked at Nicademous and told he I am in heaven? Where was he? Was he really in heaven? I know he was I am in heaven also, you say that was Jesus but not you. Do you not recognize the same Jesus Christ today in 2012? When you do it unto the least you do it unto me, I just happen to be the least in the kingdom. See Nicademous was looking at Jesus thru the carnal mind that he was in so naturally he could not see him in heaven. The carnal mind cannot understand or see into the spirit world. The door was open into the spirit world and Jesus Christ was the door and now we can enter into the spirit world if you understand how to. Do you understand how to enter the spirit world? I do.
Hi Del,
This thread is about whether or not spirit beings, such as angels and the resurrected Jesus, have bodies in heaven or not.
What do you think?
Quote (Delriomike @ Feb. 03 2012,19:28) FOOD FOR THOUGHT Where was Jesus Christ when he looked at Nicademous and told he I am in heaven? Where was he? Was he really in heaven? I know he was I am in heaven also, you say that was Jesus but not you. Do you not recognize the same Jesus Christ today in 2012? When you do it unto the least you do it unto me, I just happen to be the least in the kingdom. See Nicademous was looking at Jesus thru the carnal mind that he was in so naturally he could not see him in heaven. The carnal mind cannot understand or see into the spirit world. The door was open into the spirit world and Jesus Christ was the door and now we can enter into the spirit world if you understand how to. Do you understand how to enter the spirit world? I do.
help me out here ,i can't find what you say??Jn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.
Jn 3:2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
Jn 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’”
Jn 3:4 “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”
Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Jn 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
Jn 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
Jn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
Jn 3:9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
Jn 3:10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
Jn 3:11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Jn 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
Jn 3:15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Jn 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Jn 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,12:32) Hi Del, This thread is about whether or not spirit beings, such as angels and the resurrected Jesus, have bodies in heaven or not.
What do you think?
Mike as the church religious world teaaches when we die we go to heaven and get our angleic bodies, well if we understand who we are and get in our position with the understanding THE REVEALATION OF JESUS CHRIST, then we understand who we are NOW not going to be, but now. The world cant see us becasue we have a veil of flesh but when we understand then this body of Christ will bring forth the Unity of Christ and this understanding will bring forth the change then the whole world will see as the seven fold light will come forth. It is to be understood with the Spirit Mind not the carnal mind. I hope this makes sense and you understnad it.Quote (Delriomike @ Feb. 03 2012,19:39) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,12:32) Hi Del, This thread is about whether or not spirit beings, such as angels and the resurrected Jesus, have bodies in heaven or not.
What do you think?
Mike as the church religious world teaaches when we die we go to heaven and get our angleic bodies, well if we understand who we are and get in our position with the understanding THE REVEALATION OF JESUS CHRIST, then we understand who we are NOW not going to be, but now. The world cant see us becasue we have a veil of flesh but when we understand then this body of Christ will bring forth the Unity of Christ and this understanding will bring forth the change then the whole world will see as the seven fold light will come forth. It is to be understood with the Spirit Mind not the carnal mind. I hope this makes sense and you understnad it.
delyou can be whoever you want to be or imagine you want it to be
but wen scriptures are the rule only scriptures matters,opinions are just what they are OPINIONS,free talkPierre
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,19:33) Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
The words “who is in heaven” are thought to have been a marginal note from a scribe, that was somehow later confused as part of John's text, and added into later copies.Most translations leave those words out of the text altogether (because many good Greek mss don't have those words in them), while other manuscripts say “who was in heaven”, or something to that effect.
There is also some thought that they were John's words, like this:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man, (who is [now] in heaven).
Jesus said the red words, and John said the black ones – or so some commentators think.
See Mike the carnal has been trying to carnally understand the spirit mind for about 6k years and they still are wrestleing to thier own destruction. The carnal mind cannot figure out the spirit mind so it dont matter how hard and how smart they become they cant do it. I wont listen to the carnal mind I listen to the spirt of God he directs us in the truth He is our truth detector not some carnal minded person with a piece of paper saying that he is one of them. I dont need a piece of paper I have his spirit and that is what I need.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:14) Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 02 2012,17:32) Mike,
I'm not asking for your best guess, so are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or NoWm
I've shown you the scriptures, Wm. 1+1=2, remember?
Mike,
Considering I'm playing by your rules (answering a question asked with a yes or no) your not doing so well.Again:
Are you basically admitting that there is no scriptural support for your claim that “flesh cannot be in heaven”. Yes or No
Wm
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,19:44) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 02 2012,19:33) Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
The words “who is in heaven” are thought to have been a marginal note from a scribe, that was somehow later confused as part of John's text, and added into later copies.Most translations leave those words out of the text altogether (because many good Greek mss don't have those words in them), while other manuscripts say “who was in heaven”, or something to that effect.
There is also some thought that they were John's words, like this:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man, (who is [now] in heaven).
Jesus said the red words, and John said the black ones – or so some commentators think.
Mikeyea thanks I think that is right ,as you say ,because it fit the rest of scriptures as well''
Pierre
Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 03 2012,11:49) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,08:16) Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) SeekingTruth, are you saying that Jesus is in his flesh and bone body in Heaven?
Wm?
Toby/Mike,
I did not say it, Jesus said it. Show me justification for an undeclared “change” at the ascension, and I'll reconsider my position, otherwise I'll stick with what Jesus said.Wm
Hi Seeking.You are right that there is no recorded event of Jesus going into Heaven in a body of flesh and bone. Nor is there one of him being changed (or transformed) as he entered the cloud.
Also, The verse that says that flesh and blood cannot inherit (not enter) the kingdom of Heaven is not concerning 'Flesh and blood' meaning 'a body'. It is a euphemism for 'one of a SINful and Corrupt nature'.
To inherit the kingdom of heaven one must first be cleansed of sin and corruption. This is done at the resurrection.
That verse is a false proof in this thread. It is used incorrectly due to forced attempts at proofs.
However, it is true that flesh and blood cannot enter Heaven – but Not by that verse.
The realm of the Spirit is beyond the realm of the flesh world, and those who think with the flesh mind cannot conceive of the things of the Spirit, so they struggle all day long using the flesh world as their projection into the Spirit world (Bad mistake!) So, even pointing out the definition of Spirit by those who created the word, does nothing for some of these so-called scholarly ones, who project limited human nature onto the Free Spirit.
People say, Spirits have hands, feet, eyes, wings, mouths and they eat food. Really? So let's go with 'Wings'. Which Angel Spirit is described in the physical world as having wings? Mouths, feet, hands… What are these used for? What would an Incorporeal being need hands for? Wait – How can an incorporeal Being have corporeal body parts? Well, by figurativeness, analogy, metaphysics, symbolism. Or perhaps they need them when 'Climbing' in and out of Heaven on 'Jacobs Ladder'. Is it (It is) surprising that those who say that Spirits have Bodies in Heaven have not shown this exact 'proof' – that Heaven is entered and exited by way of a Ladder at one place in the physical world.
Some say that God is sitting in a chair at a fixed position in Heaven. Seeing that the physical universe is still expanding and is even yet limitless – it beats my mind to think how and where outside of the universe God is sitting looking down into it: isn't this pure Greek Mythology? Heaven is not 'Up' nor 'Down' nor 'left, right, north, south, east or west'. Jesus did not have to go Up to go to Heaven. Angels appeared, and then disappeared directly and exactly from where they were standing or sitting.
It is almost evidential that those who claim that Spirits have bodies in heaven have absolutely no proof nor evidence of any kind. How many hundred pages has shown this. Remember, it is for them to Prove that Spirits have bodies in Heaven – not for it to be Disproved. So far there is not one single shred of proof and hence all the spin off topics that abound.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 03 2012,11:15) Quote (toby @ Feb. 02 2012,17:31) Even Mikeboll has conceded that Spirits do not have bodies, and that Jesus is currently a Spirit Being.
Is that a lie you're telling about me, Toby? People can receive tiles here for that.Toby, will God leave us naked in heaven? Or will He give us a spiritual tent to replace the earthly tent we've lost? Which one does scripture say?
Ah, sorry, Mike. Yes, I see that I was wrong to say that.To all, I have some questions.
Jesus was a Spirit in Heaven before coming to earth.
Jesus had a Body Prepared For Him when he came as man.Question: if he had a body that was 'Spiritual' – as has been said in this forum – why did he have to have another body prepared for him?
The premise is this, as their point would suggest:
1) Jesus in Heaven was in a Spiritual Body.Q1a) What was IN the Spiritual Body?
Q1b) what was the Spiritual Body made of?2) A Body was prepared for him in the womb of Mary
Q2) Why was a body prepared for him – he already had one? (Easy answer)
3) Jesus came to earth and was born into a flesh and blood body
Q3) What happened to his 'Spiritual Body' when He came in his Flesh and Bone body?
4) God is also a Spirit Being
Q4) Does God have a body?
5) Scriptures says that the 'Body of Jesus is the Church'
Q5) If the 'Body' of Jesus is the Church – and the Church did not formerly exist…until Jesus was raised up in his glorious Flesh and Bone body, his Spiritual Body, what Body did Jesus have before?
6) Jesus was raised in a Spiritual Body which we know was Flesh and Bone
Q6a) How did Jesus Prove that his Spiritual Body was real flesh and bone (His blood was drained from the wound in his side – and as a sacrifice as per the well known prophecy).
Q6b) What events occurred surrounding the, now, Spiritual Body of Jesus that had not been recorded beforei n his previous Natural Body?
7) Jesus is in Heaven now as a Spirit Being
Q7) What happened to the Flesh and Bone body of Jesus between rising into the cloud and entering Heaven?
8) Jesus was in Heaven as a Spirit Being;
Was given a mortal body when on earth to make him a Human Being;
Jesus was killed and his mortal body made dead by the release of his Spirit;
His Mortal body was made immortal and his Spirit put back in it making it alive again;
Jesus is now back in Heaven as a Spirit Being.Q8a) if Jesus had a body as a Spirit – what happened to it when he entered the flesh on earth?
Q8b) What BODY was his Spirit (Not Aspects of his Spirit) in when his body was in the grave?
Q8c) if Jesus came into the flesh in his Spiritual Body (a) – and was in his Spiritual Body while dead (b) then how is it said that the body was raised up 'a Spiritual Body'?
Thanks.
Hi Toby.
Angels do have bodies made of spirit,they are individuals,each have a function to do,they are massengers of God,flying here and there doing Gods work.
Mat.18:10.Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you,that in heavenTHEIR ANGELS do always behold the FACE OF MY FATHER which is in heaven.
These angels;they have a job to do,they dont sit around in heaven playing harps.
It looks like each person has an angel apointed by God,also to note everyting down; in their book. all works of that particular person are recorded.
No one can get away,there is no secret hid.wakeup.
Toby,
Thank you for your honesty, I wasn't trying to be a hard-ass, I was trying to drive a point home that we should not be dogmatic when speculating beyond what scripture actually tells us. And to be clear I have no problem with speculating that Jesus may have a spiritual body now, but I believe I have also laid out a valid scriptural possibility. Most opposed to the idea that Jesus is flesh and bone do so from preconceived idea and as I told Mike I believe that ones position on this is of no eternal consequences and not worth arguing over. BUT changing what scripture says is a dangerous precedence and should be addressed for the sake of the one(s) doing it.I love Mike for his zeal and do pray for him often, I agree with him more often than not. However I was sincere in my concern for him as I believed he had gone beyond just misinterpreting scripture (as we all do at times) to altering it (however minor it is a dangerous precedence).
I will gladly discuss possibilities as long as there are counter points to be answered, but do not believe we should argue over non-essentials as it “is of no value, and only ruins those who listen”.
Wm
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