Do spirits have bodies?

[toby]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,23:31)

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,16:43) A little quiz here, please answer with honesty according to your own understanding: 1) Jesus came to save mankind from ultimate death.  Death in mankind is caused by Sin, and Sin corrupts the body and the mind.  What is meant by the word or the term 'Death' in terms of mankind on Earth? Ceasing to exist where once you dwelt, either life in general or dying to self (walking after the Spirit not the flesh). 2) A number of people in Scriptures are described as dying and were brought back to life again.  This is called being 'Resurrected'.  Yet these people still died again (No, there is no proof – it is an inference from the fact that they are not living today – or at least not identified themselves as being one of the resurrected!)  When these people died, we're they resurrected (raised up) again in the same Body that they died in? Yes, I do not believe they received their glorious body but God simply re-animated their flesh and blood body. 3) Were these people immediately recognised again, as the same people who had died (Lazarus, for instance)? Same body 4) Were their bodies different in any way to when they died (eliminating the obvious point of whatever it was that killed them!) No, they died again 5) Jesus Christ also died – and was raised up again.  With reference to questions 2, 3 and 4 above, how was Jesus' resurrection different from all other resurrections? We're told He demonstrated that death had been conquered and He displayed His glorious body (including it's ability to transcend our physical barriers)   6) Going a little deeper – The Apostle Paul declares to the Corinthians in regard to the resurrection: “It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption” What is the “IT” that is referred to in that statement? The body 7) Scriptures states that those who attain to the resurrection (and follow through after the judgement) will 'Live Forever'.  Since the Spirit of a person never dies (But can be destroyed) what part of the person is then 'Living forever'? Body, soul, spirit. 8) A body that can 'Live forever' can be assumed to be 'self healing' and 'none ageing'.  Would not such a Body be 'Glorious'?  Who would not want a body that was 'Glorious'? No argument there 9) What are the following in your opinion and give Scriptural reference to each?:  a) a Glorious Body Philippians 3:21 He will change our humble bodies and make them like his own glorious body. Christ can do this by his power, with which he is able to rule everything. (self explanatory)  b) a Spiritual Body 1 Corinthians 15:44 The body that is “planted” is a physical body. When it is raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is a physical body. So there is also a spiritual body. (I believe this to be our glorious body to be ruled by our spirit in communion with God's Spirit, instead of our flesh)  c) a Spirit Body There are no scriptures that I know of. 10) What is 'The Spirit' in regard to the 'The Body' and why is 'The Spirit' only ever mentioned as being 'A Form' – never 'A Body'? Form is defined as “The visible shape or configuration of something” while body is defined as “Give material form to something abstract.” Form is a better word to use than body as by definition body entails something physical, something the spirit realm is not. These are simple answers, so please do not feel an essay is required to answer them, unless you feel the need to express a more extravagant response.  Please take this quiz as a personal quiz.  Feel free to comment on each others answers.  Thank you! Thanks Toby – Wm

Hi Seeking Truth.

Thanks for your full and frank responses!  Excellent and Honest. They are in keeping with my own views.
Let's see what others say.

On another point: regarding the issue of Jesus saying 'Touch me'.  Yes, I meant to post more about this.
Yes, you are right to pursue this point, and I'm very interested in an honest response from others.

Why did Jesus ask Thomas to touch and feel him?
Was it not that he wanted to demonstrate absolutely that he was not a Spirit?
Can inference not then say, that a Spirit cannot be touched?
Really interesting and creative answers are expected from the Spirits have bodies brigade.
But why?  Why 'Creative' – why not truthful and honest?

You are right about the 'Exist'/'Inherit', Etc.
The problem is that many here are still on 'formula' and cannot imbibe 'meat'.
I long to discuss the issue of 'Flesh – meaning Sinful state', but that would just be foolishness to the detractors.

You and I know that the statement 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' means 'Those of a sinful nature cannot be part of God's organisation'.  That it has nothing to do with Physical Flesh.  However, it matters not that I said 'Flesh and Bone' instead of 'Flesh and Blood'.  Jesus could not use the term 'Flesh and Blood' when speaking of his physical person, as he had sacrificed his blood as a sin offering in the same way as historical Hebrews did with a goat or sheep in offering a temporary sin offering to God.  Jesus offered his blood as the permanent sin offering.  The lyrical uttering 'Flesh and Blood' was simply replaced by 'Flesh and Bone'.  In truth, the whole uttering should be 'Flesh, blood and Bone', like 'Body, Spirit and Soul' that is often shortened to just 'Body and Spirit' or 'Body and Soul' (Is there 'Spirit and Soul' alone?)”

[terraricca]

toby

Quote

You and I know that the statement 'Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' means 'Those of a sinful nature cannot be part of God's organisation'.

is this true

[mikeboll64]

I think it means that people who consist of flesh cannot dwell in heaven.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,14:31)

I think it means that people who consist of flesh cannot dwell in heaven.

Mike
that is not what is written or is it ?

[mikeboll64]

Not exactly. But I understand from the context of 1 Cor 15 that when Paul says “cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”, he is talking to people who have asked what kind of bodies they will be raised from death in.

He is speaking as if he considers all of them to be saved and among the elect, as he ususally speaks.

So he is speaking of the bodies they will have when raised from the dead to a life in heaven, and is pointing out to them that flesh bodies cannot dwell where they are going.

Yes, he words it as “inherit God's Kingdom”, but I strongly believe he means “enter heaven”.

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,14:42)

Not exactly.  But I understand from the context of 1 Cor 15 that when Paul says “cannot inherit the Kingdom of God”, he is talking to people who have asked what kind of bodies they will be raised from death in. He is speaking as if he considers all of them to be saved and among the elect, as he ususally speaks. So he is speaking of the bodies they will have when raised from the dead to a life in heaven, and is pointing out to them that flesh bodies cannot dwell where they are going. Yes, he words it as “inherit God's Kingdom”, but I strongly believe he means “enter heaven”.

Mike

I understand what you saying and true it is ,but to me that is not what toby as written when he say ;;it ..means 'Those of a sinful nature cannot be part of God's organisation'………..

this was my beef

Pierre

[toby]

Seeking Truth,

See what I meant by 'Still on Formula'?

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll.

Transform – the same thing in a different shape.
You can't Transform Flesh and Bone (and Blood) into the form of a Spirit.
Mikeboll, the Spirit is already a form – hence it is able to return to God without the Body in which it was constrained; it is able to enter the Spirit realm without the Body in which it was housed.

And, a Form is not a Body.  The Spirit is not 'IN (Inside) a Form' – it is a Form – like Flesh is a Form.  So the 'Form of the Spirit' can be thence inside the 'Form of Flesh' and thus the two thus intertwined become a Living (Flesh) Being.
The Spirit 'Gives Life' to the 'Flesh'.

The question:  'In what Form was Jesus when in Heaven' –  is not 'He was 'Inside a Spirit' but 'He was 'In the Spirit Form' (as opposed to a Flesh Form)' – he was in the same Form as God the Father – Spirit.  Invisible, incorporeal, immaterial (additionally, with immense power and authority that no constraining container (Body) of any sort other than God Almighty himself.  

Say then that God Almighty was Jesus' Spirit's container, and you can say that God Almighty was Jesus' “Spirit Body”.  But if you are going to say that, then now everyone can claim any theory.  I feel like Discussion and debate is over, as nothing can ever be agreed on the basis of truth – truth, to many, then is whatever the individual believes.  Change the meaning of words, add or remove parts of sentence to make it read as you like.

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll.

Sorry – Did I make an error.  Did I say that Jesus' body was transformed to that of Spirit before he entered Heaven, or did I always say that He 'shed the flesh body'?  That was my point.  Jesus' body did not transform from flesh to Spirit – if my explanation was in error – I meant he certainly disposed of his flesh body, and only his Spirit entered Heaven – this is not a transformation.

I think you are mixing up the transforming of the great 'We'.  

For sure, their Bodies will be transformed from their 'Sinful, unrighteousness, subject to death and decay and inglorious state' – to a 'Sinless, righteous, ever living, undying and glorious state'.  See, Mikeboll, the same flesh but transformed.

Mikeboll, Jesus had his Spirit in his flesh and bone body.  Did God raise Jesus' Spirit from the dead and make it incorruptible?
Jesus' spirit was put back in the body that was raised from the dead, so Jesus was alive in the flesh again.

[toby]

Sorry, one more thing.

In what Body are the Spirits of the dead now, while they wait for the resurrection and their 'Spirit Body' as you say?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,15:14)

You can't Transform Flesh and Bone (and Blood) into the form of a Spirit.

That seems to be an odd and unsubstantiated statement.  

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,15:14)

Mikeboll, the Spirit is already a form

Praise Jah!  You have come far since the last time we talked!

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,15:14)

And, a Form is not a Body.

Doh!  And now we're back to square one.  

Anything that constrains anything and distinguishes where it is from where it isn't, or distinguishes it from all other things, is a body.

Isn't a lake a BODY of water?

[mikeboll64]

Hi Toby,

I think it would really help us along if you were to directly address the points in my posts to you.  I've learned from my experience with a guy called Istari that me addressing points while you ignore them and continue to just keep writing more of the same thing over and over won't work.

That in mind, and with the objective of getting to the scriptural truth of the matter, please DIRECTLY address this part of my last post to you:

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,02:10)

Yet there is not a single reference to 'Spirit Body' anywhere in any Scriptural terminology except for the Mormons.

It is written as “SPIRITUAL body”, and is fully explained to us in 1 Cor 15.

Toby, what is the question Paul is answering in 1 Cor 15?
35 But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

What is his answer?
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.  If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

And who exactly has these “spiritual bodies”?
48 ……and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.

And what are the definitions of “spiritual”?  Again, from NETNotes:
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man
which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

I already know that you accept definition #1, because I believe we've discussed it before.  But will you now be like Gene and accept only one definition of a Greek word when there are clearly many?  Or will you accept and acknowledge definition #2 as well?

Thanks in advance,
mike

[seekingtruth]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,03:32)

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,07:02) Hebrews 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” Wm, It seems clear to me from scripture that while God can make His servants appear to us as flames of fire (Moses, Manoah), Hebrews 1:7 is not meant to teach that God's servants are ALL flames of fire ALL of the time.

Mike,
All recovered from your vacation yet? Missing that California weather? We had a blizzard yesterday with 8 in. of snow but it's supposed to be 40+ tomorrow, so goes Midwest weather.

No I don't believe that His servants are flames of fire but neither do I believe that when it says Jesus is a “life giving spirit” that He is only that.

This seems to be your pivotal scripture in “proving” Jesus is now a spirit, is there another one?

Wm

[shimmer]

All who are here, can you please answer me this:
What does the following verse mean to you:

'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches'.

I have my own answer, but I'll wait and see what you say.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,17:58)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 22 2012,03:32) Quote (seekingtruth @ Jan. 21 2012,07:02) Hebrews 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” Wm, It seems clear to me from scripture that while God can make His servants appear to us as flames of fire (Moses, Manoah), Hebrews 1:7 is not meant to teach that God's servants are ALL flames of fire ALL of the time. Mike, All recovered from your vacation yet? Missing that California weather? We had a blizzard yesterday with 8 in. of snow but it's supposed to be 40+ tomorrow, so goes Midwest weather. No I don't believe that His servants are flames of fire but neither do I believe that when it says Jesus is a “life giving spirit” that He is only that. This seems to be your pivotal scripture in “proving” Jesus is now a spirit, is there another one? Wm

Hi Wm,

I think I may have unintentionally mislead you. I did say I was going to sunny California – but I failed to mention that I've lived in Arizona for the last 11 years. It's even sunnier and warmer here!

I lived through 36 Iowa winters, and I don't miss those blizzards and that cold weather.

But yes, there are many scriptures from which I base my understanding. As I said in my last post, flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And as the current ruler of God's Kingdom, I'd guess that Jesus has inherited that Kingdom. That shows he cannot possibly be made of flesh – unless Paul was lying.

There is also the whole teaching of 1 Cor 15. The question is asked about what kind of BODIES the dead will be raised in, and the answer is “SPIRITUAL BODIES”.

Wm, do you believe that God or His other angels have flesh bodies? If not, why would you think Jesus would?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (toby @ Jan. 21 2012,15:29)

For sure, their Bodies will be transformed from their 'Sinful, unrighteousness, subject to death and decay and inglorious state' – to a 'Sinless, righteous, ever living, undying and glorious state'. See, Mikeboll, the same flesh but transformed.

Why do you suppose God will raise the elect in a new flesh body that will immediately be shed upon ascension to heaven?

[toby]

Hi Mikeboll.

It would seem to me, that if this Istari was feeling as frustrated as me, and then left the conversation, then they did well!  It seems that I may do the same, as it is a pointless exercise to argue with someone who redefines words and terms to mean what he wants because he cannot find anything of substance to stake his claim.

Spiritual Body is not Spirit Body.  There is no such term as Spirit Body.  That seems to be the only way that you can substantiate your claim.  That is not a good thing if you are claiming to be a Spiritual Person.

It also seems to me, that no matter how many times someone posts something to you, if they aren't saying what you want to read, then – to you, they haven't answered.  I see you do that to Gene, and now you are trying to do that with me.  Mikeboll, I have stated my thoughts on all of your points.  You just keep repeating them as if you never read them.  This is tiresome – do you never admit defeat – do you never move on.  I understand Gene's error in thought (His Spirit) and moved on with him.  I don't agree with everything he says – as I told you before (Do you remember?) nor do I agree with everything you say, but what I disagree with most is being harassed when answers have already been given.  

But to answer you (again) There is no such term as 'Spirit Body'.  That is an invention of your own. Ok, Show me from anywhere the term 'Spirit Body'.  If not then please stop using it.

You claim from a post, that you don't take mans word for anything over Scriptures, yet you use a NetBibles notes, to try and prove something.  Please, for a balanced argument, show me a use of the term 'Spiritual' – as it pertains to 'Spirits/Angels' to back up the NetBibles notes.  You cannot just quote a definition but not give examples.

[seekingtruth]

Mike,
Let's analyse what 1 Cor 15:50 says. If I understand you, you believe that this basically says “flesh cannot enter the spiritual realm”

1 Cor 15:50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

So unless you want to give reason why the words given are invalid let's look at what it says:

“Flesh and blood” – “and” Conjunction: Used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences that are to be taken jointly: “bread and butter”. Is it valid to drop “and blood” as you have done. Look at a math problem; 7 and 8 equals 15, try it your way; 7 equals 15. (not often I can use math to prove a point, Mrs Potter would be so proud of me(4th grade teacher)).

I do not see how we can go any further on this topic without resolving this point. Unless of course I'm keeping you from enjoying the wonderful weather your having  

Wm

[toby]

Shimmer, good verse

—————————————————–

Hi Seeking Truth.

While it is true that 'Flesh and Blood' cannot enter the Spirit realm, the Scripture verse explicitly says Inherits – not 'Enter'.

——————————————————–

And Hi Mikeboll.

Can you tell me what 1 Corinth 14:37 means by 'a Spiritual Person'.

If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.

Is this a 'Spirit Person' – an Angel?

“And 1 Corinth 3:1 'Spiritual People'

But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ.

Mikeboll, do you know you can make anything sound like anything else, by continually redefining something.  
Why did you create something (Spirit Body) that never previously existed and is not found anywhere else in the history of Christendom?
Since you try to claim that 'Spiritual Body' and 'Spirit Body' are the same, then what are 'Spiritual People'?
And show me any other use of the word 'Spiritual' that pertains to 'Spirits' meaning 'Heavenly Beings'

Thank you Mikeboll.

[shimmer]

'He who has AN EAR, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

Do we hear Jesus with our actual EARS as an audible voice?  Do we see Jesus with our actual EYES as a visible being?  No!  (Well I certainly never have!)  But we 'see' Jesus with our spiritual “eyes”, and we hear Jesus with our spiritual “ears”, we “see” Him now and then beside us or in front of us, speaking to us and guiding us as our leader and as our Teacher.   But not with the Eyes of flesh nor with the Ears of flesh – but of the Spirit.

OK, I'll leave you to it.

[Author]

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