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Quote (Istari @ June 07 2011,13:04) Kerwin,
I congratulate you for what you just said for it is perfectly true.
Good for you too, Istari.Now, who else is said to be raised in a flesh body to show the resurrection is real? Were any Apostles ever raised in their flesh bodies so they could go throughout the land showing people the resurrection was real? Why raise them in a flesh body that cannot enter heaven, just to remove it a second later when they come to heaven?
Do you see what you've actually agreed to with Kerwin and me? You've agreed that Jesus was raised in the body he died in for a specific purpose – to show others the resurrection was real.
And your assertion is that he shed this body entirely upon entering heaven, right? Hmmmm……………then what glorious body of Jesus is Paul hoping to have his lowly body transformed into the likeness of? The body that, according to you, Jesus doesn't even have anymore?
Istari, let's make this simple:
Why do you think Paul was hoping for a new, glorious flesh body when his residence is in heaven?
Your insult and accusation posts are wearing thin with all of us. There is a very simple question before you…….please address it directly.
mike
To all,
In speaking about Jesus’ resurrection in the flesh I have to address a few issues that I am convinced are false.
The first issue is that Jesus was the first resurrected from the bodily dead. I disagree based on two accounts one which involves two events recorded in scripture and the other that is part of one great event. The same two accounts also demonstrate that there are other but Jesus whom are resurrected in the body and yet also ascend to the heavenly realms.
Quote Jude 1: New International Version (NIV) 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Jude attests that Mosses is dead and Michael claims his body.
Quote Mark 9: New International Version (NIV) After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3 His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4 And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
5 Peter said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”Mark attest that after the archangel Judge claimed the body of Mosses, Mosses appeared alive with Jesus on a high mountain and the apostles offered to build a shelter to protect him, Jesus, and Elijah from the elements. A spirit does not require to be protected from the elements.
The second issue is that Jesus is the only account of one who is both resurrected and ascends to heaven. I am convinced all these scripture disprove that hypothesis.
Quote Matthew 27: New International Version (NIV) 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Matthew attests that after the death of Jesus many of the dead were resurrected in their bodies and then journeyed in to the city to appear too many people. There is no account of these Holy people after this event. What happened to them?
In agreement with Irene, I believe Jesus mortal body was taken away. I differ with her in that I believe it was replaced by an immortal body. I call the change his bodily transformation. Scripture does speak of such a transformation in regards to those still living on a certain day. Paul speaks of that same transformation when he states he is “anxious for his “lowly” body to be transformed into a new glorious body like the one Jesus”.
Note 1: I quoted Mike who is referring to a passage from Scripture.
It is clear that Mikeboll has a comprehension problem.
It is clear that Mimeboll cannot read and retain more than one sentence at a time.
It is clear that Mikeboll cannot bear Truth in himself unless he personally has discovered it.
It is clear that Mikeboll CAN learn BUT ONLY after he has found no other way to dispute that truth.
This is not a bad way EXCEPT that it leaves a heck of a lot of debris in his wake (What's a 'Wake'?)It is evident that Mike adopts other people's theories when he is in a corner – see that he now states that 'Istari believes what both HE and Kerwin believe' as if what 'HE and Kerwin' are saying something that 'Istari' was NOT saying FROM THE BEGINNING.
Now, why does he say this thing? To make it seem as though it is ISTARI who has made a change in belief – but read back through the posts – even a little way – and you will see that the change is to HIM (Mikeboll)!
Now, ask why Mikeboll should need to ATTEMPT this slight of hand?
Mikeboll asked a question in his last post as to why the Apostles (Paul, specifically) should be anxious to have a glorious body of undying flesh only to have it snatched away in the twinkling of an eye – or some such (read it yourself).
Well, does Scriptures not speak of the Rapture – the dead will awake and rise up in the air to be with Jesus…
Gotta go – more later…Ok, back.
So what bodies will the dead be raised in?
And in what bodies will their rapture be?The reference to a SPIRITUAL BODY was in no way meant to be a proof that SPIRITS have bodies…. The talk by Paul to the Corinthians was a direct response to their hard heartedness concerning the raising of the dead.
The Corinthians wanted to know what bodies the dead would be raised in, a reasonable question considering that many many people will obviously have bodies that have completely decayed back to dust.Paul tells them not to be foolish – that the bodies will be the same bodies they died in but it will be INCORRUPTIBLE, Sinless (as Sin wis the cause of the body's death)… If Paul had meant a SPIRIT BODY (As Mikeboll, Irene and Terraricca think) then ALL who are raised from the dead will be SPIRITS… so who will inherit the Earth – if everyone is in HEAVEN?
No, ALL WHO ARE RAISED FROM THE DEAD will have physical bodies – but those who go up to HEAVEN will PUT OFF their physical bodies just as Jesus did and become Spirit Only!
When they come again into the physical world they will 'PUT ON' the flesh bodies that will be the same exact but glorified bodies (With all blemishes, faults, deformities, etc., removed) I wrote this some time ago so don't listen to Mikeboll who is trying to say he said it first!!
The embodied Spirit/Man from Heaven will be recognisable as himself… Just as Jesus was/Is/will be…
If MERE Angels can materialise NON-Descript bodies for themselves when they come into the physical world – how can it be questionable that the ELECT can also do so.
Angels are not NATURAL turned SPIRITUAL so they do not have bodies that are created with recognisable features.
Quote (Istari @ June 08 2011,14:29) No, ALL WHO ARE RAISED FROM THE DEAD will have physical bodies – but those who go up to HEAVEN will PUT OFF their physical bodies just as Jesus did and become Spirit Only! When they come again into the physical world they will 'PUT ON' the flesh bodies that will be the same exact but glorified bodies (With all blemishes, faults, deformities, etc., removed) I wrote this some time ago so don't listen to Mikeboll who is trying to say he said it first!!
Don't worry Istari,I won't claim that I've ever even thought this, let alone “said it first”.
So it is your understanding that Paul, while looking forward to a residence in heaven, was anxious about the new glorious body he would store in a closet somewhere, to be used only during his visits to earth?
He was anxious to get this new glorious body like the one Jesus has, so he could hang his body up next to Jesus' body in the “Earth Closet”, so both bodies will be ready on the off chance that Paul and/or Jesus visit the earth?
I disagree. I believe that Paul is anxious to have his lowly body transformed into a spiritual body like the new glorious one Jesus has – a body that is adapted to living in heaven, where Jesus does reside, and where Paul also seemed confident that he too would have citizenship.
peace to you,
mikeQuote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,07:32) mike if God start to create would this not mean that he start to do thing like adding separate things (all things) beside himself?
because why would he create something in himself ,his God not complete by himself??
Pierre
Because God is love and love is meant to be shared.Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,14:20) Mike,
What is God's greatest creation?
istariit is definitely not you
my joke
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ June 09 2011,20:20) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 15 2010,07:32) mike if God start to create would this not mean that he start to do thing like adding separate things (all things) beside himself?
because why would he create something in himself ,his God not complete by himself??
Pierre
Because God is love and love is meant to be shared.
T8Yes God is Love and has LOVE,but he also is true,truth,and just ,beside being holy like perfect.
the prodigal son,it took him many bad experiences before he came to the understanding that it is better at his father table,
but it was not his father that made him change even though his father was always waiting for his return and kept his love for that son,in hope that he may come back.
this is Gods love ,he gives us time to come back to him and he provided the way.
Pierre
Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,14:12) Mike,
You are weakening.
istariyou never answer my quote ,when i said that everything as to have a body or a form if it is created if it does not have them it does not exist.
so what is your respond to this ?
Pierre
Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,07:20) Mike,
What is God's greatest creation?
Some say icecream. Not sure about that though.Mike,
What does Paul mean when he says in 1 Cor 2:5 'For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit…'?Does this not mean that the BODY is the opposite of the SPIRIT?
Mike,
If the SPIRITUAL BODY is a SPIRIT BODY and the SPIRITUAL BODY is therefore incorruptible and not subject to death – what was the SPIRIT BODY before it became SPIRITUAL?
Was the SPIRIT subject to death at any time (Destruction – yes! Death – no!)
Quote (Istari @ June 10 2011,09:42) Mike,
What does Paul mean when he says in 1 Cor 2:5 'For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit…'?Does this not mean that the BODY is the opposite of the SPIRIT?
1 Col 2:5 'For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit'Exactly. There – that should win the whole arguement.
Mike, did you know you can love someone as much – when you are not with them in the flesh.
So spirit without a body…
What is spirit without a body?
Isn't it feeling and thought?
Isn't God invisible spirit? Isn't God love?
Does love need a body?
Quote (Istari @ June 09 2011,15:42) Mike,
What does Paul mean when he says in 1 Cor 2:5 'For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit…'?Does this not mean that the BODY is the opposite of the SPIRIT?
We've been through this already. NO, it doesn't mean that spirit is opposite BODY. It means in this case that spirit is opposite FLESH.I keep telling you that flesh does not equal “body”. Many bodies are NOT made of flesh.
Quote (Rena @ June 09 2011,16:06) Does this not mean that the BODY is the opposite of the SPIRIT? 1 Col 2:5 'For though I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in Spirit'
Exactly. There – that should win the whole arguement.
Hi Rena,You do know that “body” does not equal “flesh” right? Didn't Paul talk about many bodies, some of flesh and others NOT of flesh?
If you and JA can't understand that Paul was looking forward to his citizenship in heaven and the new glorious body he'd have there, then I can't help you.
Did you notice that Istari won't answer the “Earth Closet” point I made? Maybe you will:
Shimmer, do you seriously think Paul was looking forward to having his lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus has, only for that body to be left in some kind of “Earth Closet” for the times (if ever) he visits earth?
Do you think his hope is to have his lowly body transformed into a body like the glorious one Jesus has hanging in a closet somewhere?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 10 2011,13:04) Shimmer, do you seriously think Paul was looking forward to having his lowly body transformed into a glorious new body like the one Jesus has, only for that body to be left in some kind of “Earth Closet” for the times (if ever) he visits earth? Do you think his hope is to have his lowly body transformed into a body like the glorious one Jesus has hanging in a closet somewhere?
I agree with you Mike.
But having something new means the old is gone. So the old body is gone – and before then the spirit beings and God did not have a body. Though THEY could do as JA says and change as they entered the Earth.
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