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istari
Quote Shimmer,
For yourself – just ignore him – he's got a sore head from thinking up pointless things to post against me
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,15:13) Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,15:50) I never said a thing. If you are going to accuse me of this then please go back and find it and prove it. Thanks.
Hi Shimmer,Do you deny we've had this very same discussion at least three times now? Am I the only one who has pointed this out to you?
I shouldn't have brought you into what Gene said today, and I'm sorry about that. I wish I could take it back. But you haven't seriously forgotten that we've had many discussions about this very thing, have you?
Do you really want me to drudge some of them up and post them here?
mike
Mike, it started in the begotten threads not just the procreate one. The whole thing disturbed me. You see, my faith was simple. God 'Just Is'. God is a power, a being, higher than ANYTHING. To read and think that God… (let me remember)… had a body, a WOMB, etc, Mike, I tried to fight what you were (all) saying. But I got turned on. Yeah, I remember! So at least someone like JustAskin was talking sense. Yeah, I was blind to all he was saying because all I could see was all this mumbo jumbo and anger directed at me.But your talking about the past Mike. Thankyou for acknowledging I did nothing just lately.
Lets just drop that side of it. (thanks).
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,15:22) Oh, and Shimmer, I don't believe you answered this question for me:
Shimmer, do YOU believe it was a human being who was able to detain an angel sent from God for 21 days? Because this is the claim Istari is making. Do you agree with him?
I haven't even looked into that. I'll have to read it. Later.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 22 2011,20:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 22 2011,08:44) Insulting people who don't agree with you only runs them off, please try to be more respectful brother.
It is truly amazing how you and Shimmer are able to laugh and say “Good post Istari” to the pages of insults he's dished out to me and SF and Pierre. But let one of us finally get to the point where we've had enough and retaliate, and here come the scoldings from you two.
Gene, when you say those exact same words to Istari, then I will also take those words into account. Until then, they'll be filed where I file most of your posts.
awwww you mentioned me seriously he's got a point.
That doesnt make any sense.Wow Mike, you have completely lost it.
You really cannot quit a lost cause.
Balaam was not communicating with the Angel – so was only 'detaining' the Angel inadvertently. Balaam thought the donkey was just being stubborn – as donkeys (…..) can be. He was in haste and was ignorantly annoyed by the donkeys lack of progress.
Balaam did not realise that it was the Spirit that was causing the donkey to sway from it's course so he beat it mercilessly (forget the talking part) until the Angel revealed itself visually and berated him for his error.
I used the example but it is not a direct example but – wow – I didnt expect that there was going to be an in-depth expose on the EXACT meaning of 'detained'. I thought you had a reasonable command of linguistics going by your constant use of netNotes – or perhaps that is the problem – too much definition – you can ALWAYS find a multiplicity of wayward meanings out of context for ANY WORD … If you want to cause controversy!Is not Colonel Gadaffi defying the forces of Good and remaining in power in Libya? Yes.
Mike, is HE not a POWER? a Ruler…? Is he not being required to relinquish his position and relent on his misdeeds by giving himself up to judgement by human courts?The whole point of what all this is about is that the Messenger from God influences the minds of the person to whom they have been sent – In the Balaam case, the Angel influenced the DONKEY first to turn aside perhaps hoping the human would understand (would you have? How was Balaam to know? Yet – either way – the Angel was (at least) delayed for a minor time over that which would have taken if he had spoken to Balaam in the first instance.
The Prince of Persia – if you believe that it was SPIRITUAL WARFARE (as i have also said) then what is your point – is it not still your purposeless question of 'How could an Angel be detained….unless it is a EMBODIED person'… This is your human idea of what an invisible and immaterial entity is.
How sad for you to say you don't understand what 'Invisible' and 'Immaterial' means.
Mike, give it up – you are way out of your depth in even basic wisdom!
Ask yourself what God is made up of – God is a SPIRIT – Jesus is SPIRIT – ANGELS are SPIRITS.
God is a complete and everlasting source of pure Power.
God used his invisible, immaterial and awesome power to create MATERIAL MATTER.
Mike, ALL material matter IS compressed ENERGY (Power).Gather carbon atoms together and they can form an object – Coal, Graphite, DIAMOND!
Break open the bonds of carbon atom and ENERGY IS RELEASED – heat and light…
Break the atom – and pure energy would be released – this is COMMON SCIENCE KNOWLEDGE.Mike, why do you resist the forces of knowledge, the Spirit bearing knowledge.
You are DELAYING the closure of this thread. You are DETAINING truth from entering into you.
You are defying the Spirit of Truth (The Holy Spirit)!Mike, is not the mankind defying GOD by maintaining themselves in SIN.
God sent ANGELS and Prophets to deliver messages to mankind to relent but they defied those sent.
Were not the Angels sent to Lot delayed for a short time as Lot dithered in Sodom.
You ask how can a human delay an Angel – clearly this is thrashing talk – for unless you think that God is a megalomaniac who is just going to blast everyone who defies him immediately you must understand that pursuation is his way… And to pursuade may mean being detained by opposition – a failure of the target to understand – or just pure Stubbornness (Gadaffi is just being stubborn – he knows he cannot remain. He claims that the JEERS from his opposers are CHEERS 'Listen to that – My people love me! They are Cheering for me!!!')You twist the point of Daniel and the Angel.
The Angel was detained from delivering a prophecy to Daniel.
How was he detained – he was detained by a previous assignment.Mike, you initially wanted to know why the Angel had to COME to Daniel if he is everywhere!
What you are doing is deliberately misunderstanding 'everywhere' in order to further your farce!
I said that when the INTELLIGENCE comes into the physical world they are IN ONE PLACE…. you ignore this information and maintain your restrained limited ideas – hence nothing makes sense…
How long, once Michael came to take over and release him, did it take for the Angel to get to Daniel – no time at all – instantly…. And when he came to Daniel, was he not in a physical form?In the third year of Cyrus King of Persia.
Mike, I think you should stop – you are drawing the thread off topic with these side issues that do you no credit for displaying your ability to understand Spiritual matters.
Also note that the Angel was only physical in appearance in the form of a man.
And note that the glory of him made Daniel faint from it's emanating power.Mike and all, I'm just having a bad day, or should I say week.
Sorry if I don't sound very positive.
istari
Quote – too much definition – you can ALWAYS find a multiplicity of wayward meanings out of context for ANY WORD … If you want to cause controversy! or not enough “definition”
but opinions do not cut in truthPierre
Romans 13:4 sums up the Balaam saga (I know – off topic -but short passages of topic are allowed – aren't they?)
'For he (the Angel) is God's minister to you (Balaam) for good. But if you do evil (Balaam was setting out to do evil – though I don't understand because he was TOLD TO DO IT), be afraid; for he (the Angel) does not bear the sword in vain; for he (the Angel) is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him (Balaam) who practices evil'Quote (Istari @ May 24 2011,15:29) Romans 13:4 sums up the Balaam saga (I know – off topic -but short passages of topic are allowed – aren't they?)
'For he (the Angel) is God's minister to you (Balaam) for good. But if you do evil (Balaam was setting out to do evil – though I don't understand because he was TOLD TO DO IT), be afraid; for he (the Angel) does not bear the sword in vain; for he (the Angel) is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him (Balaam) who practices evil'
astariDt 13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
Dt 13:3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soulPierre
The Natural Body and the Spiritual Body:
Romans 12: 1-2, 'I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, Holy, acceptable to God…'
(The Spiritual Body: presented to God as Jesus did after her was raised from the dead)'…and not conform to this world …'
(The Natural Body!)'…but be Transformed …'
(to the Spiritual body)'… By the RENEWING of your MIND…'
(The Spirit is the MIND – the INTELLIGENCE in the BODY. The physically sacrificed body that is kept Holy and Sinless by righteousness in thought and deed)'…that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God'
The Spiritual Body is the body that has a righteous mind (Spirit)!
Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,01:56)
Wow Mike, you have completely lost it.
Really? Let's just see who's “lost it”, shall we?Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,01:56)
You twist the point of Daniel and the Angel.
The Angel was detained from delivering a prophecy to Daniel.
How was he detained – he was detained by a previous assignment.
Could you show me the scriptural reference to this “previous assignment”?12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Since the first day Daniel prayed, God dispatched an angel to him with a response. This angel had no “previous assignment”. His ONLY assignment was to deliver God's word to Daniel in response to Daniel's prayer. God did not tell the angel, “Stop by on your way and see if you can persuade the human prince of Persia to be nicer, and THEN go deliver My message to Daniel.” But that's what you're claiming, isn't it?
Why would you claim something that's not in the scriptures, Istari? Should we all be gaining our scriptural understanding from the scriptures themselves…………..or from your imagination?
Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,01:56)
I said that when the INTELLIGENCE comes into the physical world they are IN ONE PLACE…. you ignore this information and maintain your restrained limited ideas
My ideas are “restrained” and “limited” to what the words of the scriptures actually say, Istari, as should yours be. So yes, I know you've said this many times in your rambling posts about dimensions, but unless you have a scripture that teaches me this, why should I listen to you? What you say about this matter is:1. NOT supported by scripture
2. REFUTED by scriptureTeach these things to Shimmer and Gene and Dennison if they are willing to believe you………but don't get all mad at me because I don't, okay? I believe what's in the scriptures, not what's in your rambling “World According to JA” posts.
Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,01:56)
How long, once Michael came to take over and release him, did it take for the Angel to get to Daniel – no time at all – instantly….
The scripture doesn't say how long after Michael came that the other angel made it to Daniel. Don't add to the scriptures.Quote (Istari @ May 23 2011,01:56)
Mike, I think you should stop – you are drawing the thread off topic with these side issues that do you no credit for displaying your ability to understand Spiritual matters.
What we're discussing is DIRECTLY on topic for this thread, even though YOU might not see it yet.Now here's where we're at: You believe that a mere human being is able to detain and angel sent from God Himself on a very specific mission. You don't really believe it, and that's why you concocted the story about Daniel's angel being on some “previous mission” before coming to Daniel. But now you know that's not supported by any scripture, and in fact refuted by the words of that angel himself. So now what, Istari? WAS it a mere man who detained Daniel's angel and kept him from his mission for 21 days?
Quote (shimmer @ May 22 2011,23:03) Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 23 2011,15:22) Oh, and Shimmer, I don't believe you answered this question for me:
Shimmer, do YOU believe it was a human being who was able to detain an angel sent from God for 21 days? Because this is the claim Istari is making. Do you agree with him?
I haven't even looked into that. I'll have to read it. Later.
Hi Shimmer,Let me know as soon as you read it, because I'm very curious if you too think a mere human being is able to detain an angel sent from God.
Before you even “look into it”, maybe you could tell me your 'guess” if you think that sounds feasible?
mike
From Paladin in the “Incarnation” thread:
Quote (Paladin @ May 22 2011,16:59) I see God as he reveals himself in his writings – i.e., he has heart and soul, hands, feet, arms, eyes, ears, etc, and sings. None of which changes the fact he is spirit. Look, my friend, God is the real. He is spirit, with spirit hands, spirit feet, spirit ears and eyes, and etc.
We are imitations, made in his image, in flesh.
Apparently he's not one of my “minions” that I “brainwashed”, because the two of us have never discussed this subject, and this post wasn't even to me.
all
Jn 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
so God as a form according to Christ
Pierre
Bravo Pierre!
That fits right in with Phil 2:6.This is the Greek word in Pierre's scripture:
eidos
1) the external or outward appearance, form figure, shapeQuote (Istari @ May 24 2011,09:59) The Natural Body and the Spiritual Body: Romans 12: 1-2, 'I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, Holy, acceptable to God…'
(The Spiritual Body: presented to God as Jesus did after her was raised from the dead)'…and not conform to this world …'
(The Natural Body!)'…but be Transformed …'
(to the Spiritual body)'… By the RENEWING of your MIND…'
(The Spirit is the MIND – the INTELLIGENCE in the BODY. The physically sacrificed body that is kept Holy and Sinless by righteousness in thought and deed)'…that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God'
The Spiritual Body is the body that has a righteous mind (Spirit)!
Good post!Istari, I read it without knowing what either of your point of views were and I got the feeling of a Human Prince.
There are two points of view.
Two out of the five Bible Commentaries agreed with the view that I had on reading, and go on further to say that the Prince of the Kingdom of Persia is identified as the Prince called Cambyses who reigned in his Fathers absence and hindered the building of the Temple.
The other commentaries say that the Prince of Persia is an Angelic being.
Here are two of the commentaries on Daniel 10:13 which are in your favour.
Wesley's Notes
10:13 Withstood me – God suffered the wicked counsels of Cambyses to take place awhile; but Daniel by his prayers, and the angel by his power, overcame him at last: and this very thing laid a foundation of the ruin of the Persian monarchies. Michael – Michael here is commonly supposed to mean Christ. I remained – To counter – work their designs against the people of God.
Geneva Study Bible
But the {h} prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, {i} Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(h) Meaning Cambyses, who reigned in his father's absence, and did not only for this time hinder the building of the temple, but would have further raged, if God had not sent me to resist him: and therefore I have stayed for the profit of the Church.
(i) Even though God could by one angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love he sends forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of angels.Taken from here:
http://bible.cc/daniel/10-13.htm
Hope that helps.
Mike,
Yes, you are right – I did read that part incorrectly about a previous assignment. I thought that the 'returning to fight' meant that he was ALREADY doing that hence the 'return'.So, take this as an example of what I've said to you – that is a temptation to ALL:
Satan is watching the little ones who do and say good and righteous things.He will take steps to reveal a point of truth to the little one – who, in their foolishness, will naturally refute the opponent just because it is an opponent.
The wise little one bares all things in mind – even that which his opponent says (I said I applaud all truth – no matter WHOM it is from).
Accepting truth is a winner to all – both the sayer and the bearer – so never be ashamed to change your mind, admit an error and pronounce acceptance of the truth.
This is the beginning of developing the SPIRITUAL MIND.
Now, as to the point of the Verse(s) – I have said that these are not directly related to the thread – you say they are … But I notice that you don't actually say HOW!
This is akin to your famous 'I have many other proofs waiting' but never actually present any of them even after hundreds of pages of posts!!
Your statement is just a 'Placeholder' until you can THINK UP something – in other words – you cant think of anything right now but you will wait in hiding until you find a point in the opponents post to refute and then claim it was what you were waiting to say!!!
Why do you HOLD BACK YOUR PROOF for hundreds of pages of posts?
Mike, the only thing you are trying to say is 'How was a Spirit detained if he is in all places at all times – why does he need to COME or GO anywhere if he ALREADY IS everywhere'.
This inability to understand is right – mike, yes – from your perspective you ate right…. But because you are hard of understanding… You ignore the points you don't like and then claim confusion over the rest.
Mike, 2 + 5 * 7 = (what?)
Is it 49, or is it 37?Mike, it is 37 – because in an open math equation there is a Precedence.
And the 'multiply' takes precedence over the 'plus'.To change the equation to make the answer 49 you need to change the equation to (2 + 5) * 7.
See Mike, the first is the SPIRIT equation.
The second is the BODY equation.The first is written free but understood by processing system.
The second needs to be restrained, encased, contained, in order to be made what you think it should say.Mike, ignore the rule of PRECEDENCE and you will forever claim that every equation machine in the world is wrong – and you are right.
Mike, you are not typing the equation ONE NUMBER at a time – this is an EQUATION… it is processed as a WHOLE. Not separate parts in-line…
If you want it IN-line even as an equation you need to rearrange the equation: 7 * (5+2).
But if you THINK in the BODY you will get false answers!
But if you THINK in the SPIRIT you will get the right answers!!The SPIRIT is EVERYWHERE UNTIL it COMES into the PHYSICAL WORLD!
When the SPIRIT LEAVES the physical world it again is EVERYWHERE.Hence, Mike, To go from anyone place to any other one place in the physical world, the Spirit DEPARTS from it's materialised place into being EVERYWHERE then back DOWN into a SPECIFIC ONE PLACE IN A MATERIAL BODY.
Actually, the reverse is better… Is everywhere, then down to a one specific place – then back up out of the physical world to be everywhere.
How can the Spirit be EVERYWHERE – Mike, because it is not FLESH – it is not MATERIAL – it is not restrained nor contained…unlike the BODY, material matter!
Mike, you are fighting a war against SPIRITUAL MATTERS using a foolish SCIENTIFIC tool of LOGIC!
God is not a God of LOGIC… For logic is limited to the tangible – logic requires explicit PROOF. and that requirement for EXPLICIT PROOF denies FAITH…Thomas!!!Mike, really man, what are you thinking – That SPIRITS (Even the very definition says Immaterial and Formless) exists in bodies in heaven and sit at tables feeding their war horse and polishing their burnished swords and talk to Jesus with tongues of double edged swords…. Mike, mike, have you heard of METAPHOR, ALLUSIONS, metaphysics, ANALOGY, SYMBOLISM, FIGARITIVE…
mike, yes – so how to you BELIEVE that JACOB was REBORN to Abraham after being FIGURATIVELY SACRIFICED TO GOD.
Do you believe FACTUALLY that Jesus has a Tongue that is a double edged sword?
Do you believe that GOD physically SITS on a Throne in heaven.
Mike, do you believe that an INVISIBLE IMMATERIAL BODILESS being had sex with a human woman – or did it MATERIALISE a BODY to do so? What did the women feel about being 'taken' by something they could neither see nor feel!!Mike, you need to re-examine your ideas on this MATERIAL.
You need to SPIRIT AWAY (Instantly remove!) the BODY of false matter.Quote And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form They have never heard his voice nor seen his form because in the old testement what they saw and what they heard were Angels or the pre-existant Christ.
And then Jesus says,
`So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?'
BTW, the Greek word – εἴδει – eidos is also here,
`And the Holy Spirit came down in a bodily appearance, as if a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, 'Thou art My Son — the Beloved, in thee I did delight.'
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