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But it is IMPOSSIBLE for Jesus to be the brightest “son by the Spirit”?
What scripture tells you this?
Quote (david @ April 19 2012,17:46) Nick, show me a scripture that says: “God loves Nick.” No such scripture exists. Ergo…
Although I haven't seen if Nick replied to this or not, since I no longer read his posts, as they are completely lacking in logic or thought, I will assume he did no answer this question.Hence, either God doesn't love Nick, or Nick's logic is inconsistent, and flawed.
How do i block myself from seeing Nicks messages?
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2012,11:39) David Quote I'm posting these words again, because I feel most of it is simply ignored. (Mike, was it this thread that you got these words from?) Everyone that inherits the kingdom is meek and therefore inherits earth in accordance with God’s promise. There is no wiggle room there except if you speak of visiting the new heavens. Men on very rare cases visit the present heavens so it seems reasonable they will visit the new.
Flesh and blood was an idiom for mortal body at the time 1 Corinthians was written and some versions translate it that way. Basing a tenet on one witness that can be understood in more than one way is high risk behavior.
Paul’s citizenship was in Rome, even though he did not dwell in Rome until the end of Acts. I have not looked further into the matter.
This is enough to address for now.
The meek will inherit the earth, sure. (mat 5:5; ps 37:29; prov 2:21,22, etc)
But Jesus simultaneously spoke of those who had stuck with him in his trials inheriting the kingdom, which I hold to be primarily a heavenly government, but it does have an earthly realm.
There are new heavens and a new earth. I understand the new earth not to be a new planet but a earth that is new in the sense of who is living on it and how it is ruled over. And I think it is ruled over by the new heavens. So, my question: who make up the new heavens? If it's just God, and Jesus, why is it new? heavens often represent rulership. For me, it seems evidence points to the “new heavens” being essentially the “heavenly kingdom” or the new goverenment ruled from heaven made up of a little flock selected for this special privilege. Jesus spoke of some who would rule as kings with him. I think they rule as kings making up the heavenly kingdom, in heaven.I don't see how “flesh and blood” can mean anything other than a human body. That is what a body is made of.
And, I don't really base this on one scripture. I believe I listed 40. Yes, I've heard that about Paul's citizenship before. A person doesn't have to live where they are a citizen, but it seems if I am a citizen of Canada, there is a pretty good chance I live in Canada.
Kerwin, if it just mentioned citizenship, it wouldn't be as strong of proof. But it says:
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”I don't feel bad about connecting Philippians 3:20 and Philippians 3:21, being connected and all.
And why the need to refashion their humiliated body (body of flesh and blood, human body, as I understand it)?
Why would their bodies now have to conform to Jesus' body, which is a spirit body, he being in heaven?Of course, if they were going to heaven, all parts of these 2 verses would make perfect sense.
“Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom.”
God's “heavenly kingdom” is ruled from heaven.
To be a ruler (king) in this kingdom, your fleshly body must be 'refashioned' to conform to a spirit body, like Jesus has.It makes perfect sense if understood this way.
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”The REASON for the new body the new spirit body, is that “flesh and blood cannot inherit” the kingdom.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50
“There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.”Note that it says “the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort.” So in Philippians 3, where we are told that Jesus would refashion their bodies to conform to his “glorious body,” what conclusion should be drawn?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”God has given such Christians the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED FROM THE CORRUPTION that is in the world through lust.”Persons whom God calls to heaven will be immortal, incorruptible spirit persons, “sharers in divine nature.” (1 Cor. 15:42-44, 53; 2 Pet. 1:4) Since “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” these individuals must undergo a change. (1 Cor. 15:50) They must be given a “spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:44) Are not spirit bodies designed to live in the spirit realm, heaven?
JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way:
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”Such ones are born again while yet in the flesh, that is, granted the position of spiritual sons of God, born of “incorruptible reproductive seed,” and their inheritance “is reserved in the heavens.” (Compare 1Jo 3:1,9; col 1:5.)
EPHESIANS 1:3-5
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN UNION WITH CHRIST, just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the ADOPTION through Jesus Christ as sons to himself,”
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22)
In the following scripture, Paul goes on to show that those persons adopted to be heavenly sons are referred to as “the things in the heavens.”
EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”
COLOSSIANS 1:20
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.”Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.”
The first stage of God’s “administration” is the gathering together again of “the things in the heavens,” preparing the congregation of Kingdom heirs who are to live in the heavens under Jesus Christ as the spiritual Head. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11; 1Pe 1:4)ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”How will God’s children be “glorified together”?
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
(Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8; Rev 22:4; 1 Cor 13:12) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”
Yet, notice these scriptures:
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
If no “man” may see God and yet live, then the children of God cannot be men when they become “like him” and “see him just as he is,” can they? As Philippians 3:21 says of the anointed, Christ “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body.”When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) THESE SPIRIT SONS OF GOD HAVE VISION STRONG ENOUGH TO SEE AND ENDURE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. (Lu 1:19; Mt 18:10.) This is because they have spirit bodies, even as the anointed who “shall see him just as he is” are to be raised with “a spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:42)
It will be a body conformed to the “glorious body” of Jesus Christ (Php 3:21), who is “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3)PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30;
2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1)
HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.” (Compare Rom 8:30)
Doesn't this indicate that some will have “the prize of the upward call,” and be partakers of a heavenly calling? The dictionaries I checked indicated that a “calling” is:
1. impulse or desire to follow or do a particular job; a strong urge to follow a particular career or do a particular type of work.
2. a job, profession, occupation or vocation.
The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. It is a heavenly “upward call.”These “holy ones” do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens.
EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”The incorruptible spiritual body is referred to as a house. Notice where it is said to be:
2 CORINTHIANS 5:1
“For we know that if our earthly house [human body], this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, A HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, everlasting IN THE HEAVENS. For in this dwelling house [human body] we do indeed groan, earnestly DESIRING TO PUT ON THE ONE FOR US FROM HEAVEN, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”
(Compare 2 Pet 1:13,14; 2 Tim 4:6)
Paul used the metaphor of a tent when speaking of the human bodies of spirit-begotten Christians. A collapsible tent is a more fragile and temporary dwelling than a normal house. Though existing on earth in a mortal body of flesh, the Christians who have the spirit as a token of the heavenly life to come look forward to “a building from God,” a heavenly body that is everlasting, incorruptible.2 CORINTHIANS 3:17-18
“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:12
“For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.”ACTS 2:34
“Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,”
Why the need to say this if no one ever ascends to heaven? Why say the obvious? If no one ever goes to heaven, what is the point of saying this? It would be pointless. If it is obvious that no one goes to heaven, of course David didn't go to heaven. Of course, everyone didn't go. So why specify that David didn't go?JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
(Until the new covenant was made for a heavenly kingdom, where men would serve as joint heirs with Christ, no one had ascended into heaven.)Hi David,
Even relying on your foundation of logic none of the verses say men make an abode in heaven.Can we stop saying “make an abode in heaven” and start using normal language? My question is: Do men ever go to heaven, meaning, will some live in heaven for any amount of time?
Hi Nick,
Relying on your foundation of logic, there are no verses that says God burns people forever in fire. Yet, I think you believe this. Or, many believe that “God is a trinity” or that “God is not a trinity” and yet, no verse says either.Ok, here is what it does say:
They are “partakers of the heavenly calling,” having received the “price of the the upward call.” The glory of earthly bodies is one sort and the glory of heavenly bodies is one sort. There [earthly] bodies wold be refashioned to be like Jesus' glorified body. This is because flesh and blood [earthly bodies] cannot inherit God's kingdom which is a “heavenly kingdom.” These ones will “bear the image of the heavenly one.” Their inheritance is “reserved in the heavens.” They are “heirs of the kingdom” and “joint heirs” and 'co-rulers' with Christ, ruling as kings with Christ in the heavenly kingdom (government). Escaping corruption, and putting on incorruption, they will be “shares of divine nature” with a “spiritual body.” They would be “glorified together” with Christ.
They would be like God, seeing him as he is, seeing God face to face.Hi David,
Why turn to the humble servants of the JW monarchy for instruction?They take no part in the salvation of men.
Yes David,
Some who were once human beings will dwell in heaven. In fact, some of them already do right now. The souls under the alter in Revelation are those who were once men and now currently dwell in heaven in fine white robes. Those are ones who never tasted death at all, but were taken immediately up to heaven without the normal “layover” in Hades. They were changed in the twinkling of an eye into spirit beings at the moment their flesh was killed by men.
At least this is how I understand it.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2012,06:21) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 22 2012,01:43) Nick……….That is truem it is indeed the mental light from the Spirit, that Peter was comparing to the Day Star that rises and gives light to the earth, the Spirits of GOD rising in our Hearts enlightening our minds. peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………….gene
Hi GB,
The Spirit is one
1Cor 12.Eph 4
To all…………No one has ascended from the Grave but Jesus himself. If Jesus is the “FIRST” resurected from the dead to eternal existence and the FIRST of many Brethern, how can these false assumptions of, others have risen to eternal life, even exist here?It is amazing how people put so much Mystery Religious teachings into “THEIR” Regions. There is non risen to eternal life but Jesus and no others will be until the “FIRST RESURRECTION” takes place, Just as scripture says. So entertaining all the Preexistences, Trinitarian and JW's, false teachings is pure foolishness.
So now we are getting the message the resurrection has already happened, and another one who thinks that there is only 144 thousand that is raises from the grave, and on and on it goes and around and around it goes. Indeed this statement is true, the word of God has become unto them as, here a little and there a little that they may go forward and fall backward. Need scripture
ISA 28:13…> But the word of the Lord was unto them precept unto precept, precept upon precept; line upon line here a “LITTLE” and there a “LITTLE” that they might go, and fall “BACKWARD”, and be broken, and snared, and taken .
It is very much like straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. All have gone their own way and each seek his own rightness but they never coming to a consensuses of the truth. If we really LOVED the TRUTH it would not Matter if we were Wrong or Right Now would it? It is the truth that should matter no our EGOS. You can not take ONE scripture and make a doctrine out of it IMO.
peace and love to you all……………………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,02:42) Gene, Some who were alive when Jesus was on the earth did not taste death at all. (Mark 9:1)
Mike………Another twist of scripture another half sentence posted to make a doctrine. Had you finished the sentence it would have said UNTIL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMING WITH GLORY AND POWER as i recall. That was accomplished six days after at the Mount of transfiguration. And after they saw that then they died later. The word (UNTIL) or (BEFORE) should have been a clue.Mike you have got to quit forcing the text to meet your false teachings brother. Not trying to put you down Mike becasue we have all done that at times but we need to all work together to try to find things out within context of all scriptures, and with God's help we all can. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 23 2012,03:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 23 2012,02:42) Gene, Some who were alive when Jesus was on the earth did not taste death at all. (Mark 9:1)
Nike………Another twist of scripture another half sentence posted to make a doctrine. Had you finished the sentence it would have said UNTIL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMING WITH GLORY AND POWER as i recall. That was accomplished six days after at the Mount of transfiguration. And after they saw that then they dies later. (The word (UNTIL) should have been a clue.Mike you have got to quit forcing the text to meet your false teachings brother. Not trying to put you down Mike becasue we have all done that at times but we need to all work together to try to find things out within context of all scriptures, and with God's help we all can. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Hi Gene,Can you elaborate more on this point?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Mike! Mar 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
This Scripture s taken out of contact if you believe that they are in Heaven…It says until they see the Kingdom come with power…..
The Kingdom has not come yet…. also Scriptures do mot contradict… if one Scriptures says no one has seen God, and you say they are with God in Heaven, then they do….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ April 22 2012,10:09) Another twist of scripture another half sentence posted to make a doctrine. Had you finished the sentence it would have said UNTIL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMING WITH GLORY AND POWER as i recall.
Matthew 16:28
I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.Gene, we know that when the Son of Man does come on the clouds with his glory and God's angels, it will be like lightning shining from the east to the west. It will not be a “secret” event, that only a few witness.
Has this event happened? Has the whole world witnessed the second coming of the Son of Man yet?
Also, notice the bolded word “before” in the scripture I quoted. The point Jesus made was not that some would die AFTER he came in his glory. The point was that, while MOST would taste death before he came again, certain ones would not.
Quote (Pastry @ April 22 2012,10:45) Hi Mike! Mar 9:1 ¶ And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. This Scripture s taken out of contact if you believe that they are in Heaven…It says until they see the Kingdom come with power…..
The Kingdom has not come yet…. also Scriptures do mot contradict… if one Scriptures says no one has seen God, and you say they are with God in Heaven, then they do….
Peace and Love Irene
Not all taste death, Irene. Some, like the ones mentioned under the alter in Revelation – the ones who died as a direct result of doing God's will – do not taste death. They do not await the resurrection from Hades, but await the events of the last days from the presence of God in heaven. These are no longer human beings with flesh eyes, Irene, so they can indeed see God like the angels can see God.Good to hear from you again.
Quote (Pastry @ April 23 2012,03:45) The Kingdom has not come yet.
Hi Irene, (you too can have your own personal “Pentecost”.)“The kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness,
and peace, and joy in the HolySpirit.” (Romans 14:17)“After his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and
speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled
together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John
truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the HolySpirit not many days hence. (Acts 1:3-5)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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