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“Come out of her lest you suffer for her sins”.
Not one of those phrases that could be taken out of context…
Stuart
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 01 2009,09:44) WHY DO SO MANY PEOPLE WORRIE ABOUT A DENOMINATION OVER AOTHER? I LIKE TO FELLOSHIP WITH PEOPLE OF LIKE FAITH.
TO ME ITS NOT GOOD FOR SO MANY DENOMINATIOMS. I BELIEVE THEY ARE DIVISIONS THAT JESUS DID NOT WANT.
ONE WILL SAY NO BAPTISM ONE WILL SAY BAPTISM IS A MUST.ONE WILL SAY ONLY ASK JESUS IN YOUR HEART, ONE WILL SAY YOU NEED THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST WITH EVEDANCE OF SPEAKING IN TOUNGS, AND MANY OTHER DIFFERANCES.
CANT WE ALL JUST FOLLOW JESUS AND HIS TEACHINGS, AND THE PROFITF, AND THE APOSTLES OF JESUS TEACHING?
THERE IS ONE WAY AND THAT IS THROUGH JESUS
I think it is pride in membership of their church, denomination.I think we all suffer from pride to a certain degree.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2009,12:36) Hi JN,
So tell us again why denominations are relevant.
They probably are not relevant, but then it is a alot like culture, it is different from other cultures but it identifies them from others.Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,04:54) Quote (Stu @ July 02 2009,08:00) “Revealed” knowledge depends on the biases of the supposed revealee. Hence any system of religious mythology is going to splinter endlessly. If any of it had any objective truth there would not be so many contradictory versions. 34,000+ versions of christianity and counting…
Stuart
34000+ versions of christianity all cant be right when Jesus said I am the way. i could name some denominations, but why would it matter. we just need to focs on jesus
Don't most of them state just to focus on Yeshua?Quote (seekingtruth @ July 03 2009,09:38) There are many who attend a “denomination” that realize that only some attending will be brothers and sisters and furthermore they realize that some of those attending other denominations or some not attending at all, are also fellow believers. None of us here believe exactly same and we will all answer for how we responded to truths delivered to us. I will have missed some truths due to various reasons but I, as well as many others have obtained the critical truth of faith by which all must be saved. My opinion Wm
I wonder why people don't try to figure out what is “good” in or about other denominations? Instead of making them all heretics.Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 03 2009,11:34) 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Though I find your desire for unity a good thing, I think your view is very wrong.
I feel like what your saying is that God would rather have us be ignorant and blind to His word, not studying it and testing all things, proving all things, for the sake that it would be better for us all to 'get along'. We should all just have a watered down or superficial understanding of Jesus and God's plan, because it would be better for us to 'get along?'.
I believe God wants us to build a personal relationship with Him through reading the bible and thinking with the brain He gave us on what it says. I believe God wants us to SEARCH for truth, and if we think we've come to understand it, continue to test it with others.
I don't think that God would rather have some of us believing lies, in order for all of us to be able to 'get along'.
Nice thoughts, appears they are from the heart too.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 03 2009,12:19) Hi Jodi,
Are these ideas from Descartes?
Do you think reading the bible saves anyone?
That alone mainly seems to lead to false conclusions about God and salvation.
Ofcoarse the bible does not save, but it certainly can put them onto the path leading to salvation.Descartes the French philosopher?
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 10 2009,07:56) so stu do you discredit the bible?
The bible is against Stu's nature, Yahweh is against Stu's nature, Yeshua is against Stu's nature, The Spirit is against Stu's nature. In fact ask Stu, he will tell you, he is an enemy against the very nature of religion.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 10 2009,08:01) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 03 2009,14:34) 1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Though I find your desire for unity a good thing, I think your view is very wrong.
I feel like what your saying is that God would rather have us be ignorant and blind to His word, not studying it and testing all things, proving all things, for the sake that it would be better for us all to 'get along'. We should all just have a watered down or superficial understanding of Jesus and God's plan, because it would be better for us to 'get along?'.
I believe God wants us to build a personal relationship with Him through reading the bible and thinking with the brain He gave us on what it says. I believe God wants us to SEARCH for truth, and if we think we've come to understand it, continue to test it with others.
I don't think that God would rather have some of us believing lies, in order for all of us to be able to 'get along'.
Hi JodiSo in other words we all have to perfectly agree before we can endevour to keep the unity of the Spirit?
WJ
I think love endevour's to keep the unity of the Spirit.Quote (Stu @ July 10 2009,14:05) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 11 2009,02:56) so stu do you discredit the bible?
The bible is historical fiction. Jerusalem is real; giants, angels, a global flood and talking snakes are not.Stuart
Maybe, but you have proven snakes can type.Quote (Stu @ July 19 2009,16:28) Quote (Paladin @ July 20 2009,00:57) Quote (Stu @ July 14 2009,13:14) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 14 2009,09:34) stu do you think christians are wrong?
It depends what they say. If they say that they believe Jesus really existed and that he taught kindness and forgiveness, then I think they are right.If on the other hand they say that Jesus was without sin yet hypocritically refused to cast the first stone himself, and that actually Saul of Tarsus was right, that Jesus would have condemned homosexuals and adulterers to death, then I think they are wrong.
Stuart
And just where did Saul of Tatsus make any such silly statement?Jesus did not come to judge, but to save.
And Paul said nothing differently about Jesus.
Starting at Romans 1:26, Paul tells us that homosexuals are worthy of death.If Paul wrote Timothy then he also tells us that it is all good for teaching, including the OT condemnations of homosexuality. (Which, by the way, is incitement to murder and is therefore illegal).
Does Jesus agree anywhere with Paul on this subject?
Stuart
I believe Yeshua backs it up completly, no he does state to go and sin no more, and he does teach there is a punishment for disobedience. Now he may not come out and act like John the Baptist, but they were in one accord.Just because he did not scream death to the infidels from the roof tops, does not mean the infidels won't be punished.
Just an opinion.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 06 2009,22:54) God can be nothing then. I guess that is the ultimate in omnipotence: the capacity to not exist at all. Stuart
That makes no sense, it's not even logical.His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature; it is part of His nature.
Yahweh has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run. But, I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it.
My ability to run is connected to my nature, and I cannot violate it.
So too with Yahweh. His omnipotence is connected to His nature, since being omnipotent is part of what He is.
Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is, and not with what He is not, since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself.
Therefore, Yahweh can only do those things that are consistent with his nature.
He cannot lie because it is against his nature to do so.
Not being able to lie does not mean He is not Yahweh or that he is not all powerful.
Also, He cannot cease to be Yahweh.
Since He is in all places at all times, if he stopped existing then he wouldn't be in all places at all times.
Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating his own nature.
The point is that Yahweh cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature.
But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not Yahweh, nor that he is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with his desire, within the realm of his unlimited and universal power, which we do not possess.
This does not mean He can violate his own nature.
If He did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory.
If Yahweh were self contradictory, he would not be true.
Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like making himself non-existant, He would also not be true since that would be a self-contradiction.
Since truth is not self contradictory, and neither is Yahweh, if he were not true then he would not be Yahweh.
But Yahweh is true and not self contradictory.
Therefore, Yahweh cannot do something that violates his own nature.
You are asking is that Yahweh become self contradictory as a proof he doesn't exist.
Your assertion is illogical from the start.
So what they are doing is trying to get Yahweh to be illogical.
You want to use illogic, instead of logic, to prove Yahweh doesn't exist.
It doesn't work, and the “paradox” is self-refuting and invalid.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 12 2009,01:25) “Come out of her lest you suffer for her sins”. Not one of those phrases that could be taken out of context…
Stuart
I totally agree.Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,21:56) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,04:54) Quote (Stu @ July 02 2009,08:00) “Revealed” knowledge depends on the biases of the supposed revealee. Hence any system of religious mythology is going to splinter endlessly. If any of it had any objective truth there would not be so many contradictory versions. 34,000+ versions of christianity and counting…
Stuart
34000+ versions of christianity all cant be right when Jesus said I am the way. i could name some denominations, but why would it matter. we just need to focs on jesus
Don't most of them state just to focus on Yeshua?
Hi CT:No, they do not just focus of Yeshua, but on their particular doctrines which are not scripture but interpretation of scripture.
Our covenant is with God through the Lord Yeshua, and is not a covenant with the pastors of the different denominations. They go as far as tell you that you cannot be a member of their church if you don't agree with doctrines such “the trinity”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Nov. 13 2009,13:00) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,21:56) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,04:54) Quote (Stu @ July 02 2009,08:00) “Revealed” knowledge depends on the biases of the supposed revealee. Hence any system of religious mythology is going to splinter endlessly. If any of it had any objective truth there would not be so many contradictory versions. 34,000+ versions of christianity and counting…
Stuart
34000+ versions of christianity all cant be right when Jesus said I am the way. i could name some denominations, but why would it matter. we just need to focs on jesus
Don't most of them state just to focus on Yeshua?
Hi CT:No, they do not just focus of Yeshua, but on their particular doctrines which are not scripture but interpretation of scripture.
Our covenant is with God through the Lord Yeshua, and is not a covenant with the pastors of the different denominations. They go as far as tell you that you cannot be a member of their church if you don't agree with doctrines such “the trinity”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So your interpretation of scripture is better than theirs. Is that what you are claiming?Stuart
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,22:48) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 06 2009,22:54) God can be nothing then. I guess that is the ultimate in omnipotence: the capacity to not exist at all. Stuart
That makes no sense, it's not even logical.His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature; it is part of His nature.
Yahweh has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run. But, I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it.
My ability to run is connected to my nature, and I cannot violate it.
So too with Yahweh. His omnipotence is connected to His nature, since being omnipotent is part of what He is.
Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is, and not with what He is not, since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself.
Therefore, Yahweh can only do those things that are consistent with his nature.
He cannot lie because it is against his nature to do so.
Not being able to lie does not mean He is not Yahweh or that he is not all powerful.
Also, He cannot cease to be Yahweh.
Since He is in all places at all times, if he stopped existing then he wouldn't be in all places at all times.
Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating his own nature.
The point is that Yahweh cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature.
But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not Yahweh, nor that he is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with his desire, within the realm of his unlimited and universal power, which we do not possess.
This does not mean He can violate his own nature.
If He did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory.
If Yahweh were self contradictory, he would not be true.
Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like making himself non-existant, He would also not be true since that would be a self-contradiction.
Since truth is not self contradictory, and neither is Yahweh, if he were not true then he would not be Yahweh.
But Yahweh is true and not self contradictory.
Therefore, Yahweh cannot do something that violates his own nature.
You are asking is that Yahweh become self contradictory as a proof he doesn't exist.
Your assertion is illogical from the start.
So what they are doing is trying to get Yahweh to be illogical.
You want to use illogic, instead of logic, to prove Yahweh doesn't exist.
It doesn't work, and the “paradox” is self-refuting and invalid.
In that case I think you should stop using the word “omnipotence” to describe your god. Clearly it is not omnipotent.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 12 2009,19:45) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,22:48) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 06 2009,22:54) God can be nothing then. I guess that is the ultimate in omnipotence: the capacity to not exist at all. Stuart
That makes no sense, it's not even logical.His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature; it is part of His nature.
Yahweh has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run. But, I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it.
My ability to run is connected to my nature, and I cannot violate it.
So too with Yahweh. His omnipotence is connected to His nature, since being omnipotent is part of what He is.
Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is, and not with what He is not, since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself.
Therefore, Yahweh can only do those things that are consistent with his nature.
He cannot lie because it is against his nature to do so.
Not being able to lie does not mean He is not Yahweh or that he is not all powerful.
Also, He cannot cease to be Yahweh.
Since He is in all places at all times, if he stopped existing then he wouldn't be in all places at all times.
Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating his own nature.
The point is that Yahweh cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature.
But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not Yahweh, nor that he is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with his desire, within the realm of his unlimited and universal power, which we do not possess.
This does not mean He can violate his own nature.
If He did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory.
If Yahweh were self contradictory, he would not be true.
Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like making himself non-existant, He would also not be true since that would be a self-contradiction.
Since truth is not self contradictory, and neither is Yahweh, if he were not true then he would not be Yahweh.
But Yahweh is true and not self contradictory.
Therefore, Yahweh cannot do something that violates his own nature.
You are asking is that Yahweh become self contradictory as a proof he doesn't exist.
Your assertion is illogical from the start.
So what they are doing is trying to get Yahweh to be illogical.
You want to use illogic, instead of logic, to prove Yahweh doesn't exist.
It doesn't work, and the “paradox” is self-refuting and invalid.
In that case I think you should stop using the word “omnipotence” to describe your god. Clearly it is not omnipotent.Stuart
Oh but he is omnipotent!Does science have a nature?
If it does can it go against it's own nature?
I think not.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 13 2009,22:21) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 12 2009,19:45) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,22:48) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 06 2009,22:54) God can be nothing then. I guess that is the ultimate in omnipotence: the capacity to not exist at all. Stuart
That makes no sense, it's not even logical.His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature; it is part of His nature.
Yahweh has a nature, and his attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run. But, I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it.
My ability to run is connected to my nature, and I cannot violate it.
So too with Yahweh. His omnipotence is connected to His nature, since being omnipotent is part of what He is.
Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is, and not with what He is not, since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself.
Therefore, Yahweh can only do those things that are consistent with his nature.
He cannot lie because it is against his nature to do so.
Not being able to lie does not mean He is not Yahweh or that he is not all powerful.
Also, He cannot cease to be Yahweh.
Since He is in all places at all times, if he stopped existing then he wouldn't be in all places at all times.
Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating his own nature.
The point is that Yahweh cannot do something that is a violation of his own existence and nature.
But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not Yahweh, nor that he is not omnipotent.
Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with his desire, within the realm of his unlimited and universal power, which we do not possess.
This does not mean He can violate his own nature.
If He did something inconsistent with his nature, then he would be self contradictory.
If Yahweh were self contradictory, he would not be true.
Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like making himself non-existant, He would also not be true since that would be a self-contradiction.
Since truth is not self contradictory, and neither is Yahweh, if he were not true then he would not be Yahweh.
But Yahweh is true and not self contradictory.
Therefore, Yahweh cannot do something that violates his own nature.
You are asking is that Yahweh become self contradictory as a proof he doesn't exist.
Your assertion is illogical from the start.
So what they are doing is trying to get Yahweh to be illogical.
You want to use illogic, instead of logic, to prove Yahweh doesn't exist.
It doesn't work, and the “paradox” is self-refuting and invalid.
In that case I think you should stop using the word “omnipotence” to describe your god. Clearly it is not omnipotent.Stuart
Oh but he is omnipotent!Does science have a nature?
If it does can it go against it's own nature?
I think not.
What has science got to do with it?Just like your god, science is a human construct. The difference is that science gets tangible results!
My dictionary does give you an out-clause! It has a sense of “omnipotent” that reads “great power or influence”.
There is no question that the christian delusion has great power and influence. Whether there is actually an omnipotent supernatural being that matches the delusion is the pointless question that accompanies this dictionary sense. Omnipotence is an attribute waiting for evidence of an attributee.
Stuart
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,22:34) Quote (Stu @ July 19 2009,16:28) Quote (Paladin @ July 20 2009,00:57) Quote (Stu @ July 14 2009,13:14) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 14 2009,09:34) stu do you think christians are wrong?
It depends what they say. If they say that they believe Jesus really existed and that he taught kindness and forgiveness, then I think they are right.If on the other hand they say that Jesus was without sin yet hypocritically refused to cast the first stone himself, and that actually Saul of Tarsus was right, that Jesus would have condemned homosexuals and adulterers to death, then I think they are wrong.
Stuart
And just where did Saul of Tatsus make any such silly statement?Jesus did not come to judge, but to save.
And Paul said nothing differently about Jesus.
Starting at Romans 1:26, Paul tells us that homosexuals are worthy of death.If Paul wrote Timothy then he also tells us that it is all good for teaching, including the OT condemnations of homosexuality. (Which, by the way, is incitement to murder and is therefore illegal).
Does Jesus agree anywhere with Paul on this subject?
Stuart
I believe Yeshua backs it up completly, no he does state to go and sin no more, and he does teach there is a punishment for disobedience. Now he may not come out and act like John the Baptist, but they were in one accord.Just because he did not scream death to the infidels from the roof tops, does not mean the infidels won't be punished.
Just an opinion.
Tee Hee. Just like children's action figures the fundies at Heavennet can be made to 'fight' one another!Just because someone screams from the rooftops, or the pulpit, or the computer keyboard that all and sundry will be punished for breaking the very specific religious rules of their particular sect, it does not mean that anyone will be punished.
That is just humans seeing divine intent in cases of unlucky genetics or chance encounters with pathogens. What a brutal god this is if we can attribute so much human misery to his sadism.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 13 2009,14:42) Quote (942767 @ Nov. 13 2009,13:00) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Nov. 12 2009,21:56) Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,04:54) Quote (Stu @ July 02 2009,08:00) “Revealed” knowledge depends on the biases of the supposed revealee. Hence any system of religious mythology is going to splinter endlessly. If any of it had any objective truth there would not be so many contradictory versions. 34,000+ versions of christianity and counting…
Stuart
34000+ versions of christianity all cant be right when Jesus said I am the way. i could name some denominations, but why would it matter. we just need to focs on jesus
Don't most of them state just to focus on Yeshua?
Hi CT:No, they do not just focus of Yeshua, but on their particular doctrines which are not scripture but interpretation of scripture.
Our covenant is with God through the Lord Yeshua, and is not a covenant with the pastors of the different denominations. They go as far as tell you that you cannot be a member of their church if you don't agree with doctrines such “the trinity”.
Love in Christ,
Marty
So your interpretation of scripture is better than theirs. Is that what you are claiming?Stuart
Hi Stu:No, I am not claiming that at all. What I am saying is that the following scripture defines what it takes to be a member of God's church.
Quote Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.This is what the scripture states. It does not need to be interpreted.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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