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Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,09:16) Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
Lightenup.Are you saying that God died on the cross,when he left jesus before he died; Eli Eli lama sabachtany?
Are you saying that mary changed Gods nappies,and fed on mary's breast?
can you tell me?
wakeup.
Quote (AndrewAD @ July 15 2012,10:03) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2012,15:39) Andrew Quote so I'm going to remain a trinitarian; I never was a trinitarian and yet I was born in a catholic environment ,but i never pick up what I could not read and understand clearly into the scriptures,I would advice you to do the same ,it is your soul you dealing for ,this is all we all have ,and only the truth of God can save it ,so in Christ name INVESTIGATE THIS LIE,
Hi terraricca,growing up in the Roman church I never read the Bible and therefore blindly accepted what I was taught but always felt like a rebel not being able to ascribe or live up to their rules.
It wasnt until I had a conversion experience that I became interested in God or the Bible at all.In fact religion was my worst subject when I went to catholic school.I got Ds
When I first started reading the bible on my own I remember questions arising in my mind about the trinity doctrine but didnt pursue the questions very far upon seeing the complex nature and wanting to avoid confusion.So again in a sense you might say I just accepted the doctrine.
Until recently the only non-trinitarian doctrines I encountered were from JWs and UPC both of which rubbed me wrong partly based on the way they approach the subject with their exclusive attitudes mixed with other doctrines which I view as false.
In my investigations thus far I understand why the council of Nicea decided upon the trinity doctrine to protect the divinity of Christ and I see how also this led to theotokos and the error of the cult of Mary.
While the term trinity is never used in the Bible,we all as Christians regardless of what branch we consider ourselves,all believe in Father,Son,and Holy Spirit.Whether you call this union trinity or not God is presented to us in the Bible in this way.
Without the Son we cant have the Father Jn14:6,without the Father we cant have the Son Jn3:16,and without the Spirit we cant have eitherJn3:3-8
As I stated in an earlier post what lead me to a study on this doctrine and eventually to this site was my discussion/argument on another site with those who say non-trinitarians are not or cannot be saved.My argument with them was that believing Jesus Christ is the son of the living God Matt16:13-18 is the requirement and not the trinity doctrine.I explained that this doctrine was developed over time and that the early church fathers before Nicea didnt teach it like it was finally decided upon later.Of course most got angry,and basically called me a liar and a heretic.To them denying the trinity is the same as denying the divinity of Christ,which I understand why they think that way.I used to be just like them too on account of Jws, and Mormons.But they would hardly let me even explain myself or hear me;it was a live chat room with mic and text.
I also defended my position from mere experience in knowing some from the UPC who hold the Jesus only or a modalistic doctrine.In knowing some of these people I would consider them real Christians and the ones I've known dont consider all trinitarians as damned even though their church might believe that.
It might be argued that the trinity doctrine was influenced by Greek,Egyptian,or other philosophies,but it can also be argued by unbelievers that the Logos and the whole of the gospel narratives were borrowed,and influenced by pagan myths and ideas.
Though doctrine is important,our mere human intellectual understanding of the divine nature is of far less importance than our showing/exhibiting that divine nature.1Cor13:1-2,Gal 5:18-22
AndrewadI understand ,I have been their ,but the most importante thing to understand what you read in scriptures is to believe what you read ,if you do not then you will not receive anything from the spirit of truth in it .
Quote (AndrewAD @ July 15 2012,03:24) Quote (Ed J @ July 10 2012,15:41) Hi Andrew, welcome to H-net! Did you get all 20 questions right?
God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the welcome! But what are the 20 questions? I guess I missed seeing that somewhere.Tbh I don't see that Jesus,Paul or anywhere in scripture explicitly teaches the trinity doctrine as expressed in the Nicene creed as the author on the homepage points out so I don't see it as a definite necessity for Christianity but at the same time I won't say the doctrine is apostasy,heresy or blasphemy.
I don't say this in response to you Ed but as an addendum to my previous comments.Hope you understand and don't mind.
Love in Christ to all!
Hi Andrew, the 20 questions was a joke.Most baptists will ask you as series of questions
to find out if you are “a Christian” (according to them).God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgI did not know that about Baptists, Ed. Interesting. I also found it interesting that my nephew recently had to do a little course and answer certain questions before the JW's would baptize him as such. I don't remember the disciples putting stipulations like that on anyone they baptized, do you?
Hi Mike,
I didn't know about any such questions to be a JW.
I thought you just had to swear loyalty to their organization.
And no, I don't believe the disciples put stipulations like that on anyone.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 15 2012,18:28) Quote (AndrewAD @ July 15 2012,03:24) Quote (Ed J @ July 10 2012,15:41) Hi Andrew, welcome to H-net! Did you get all 20 questions right?
God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the welcome! But what are the 20 questions? I guess I missed seeing that somewhere.Tbh I don't see that Jesus,Paul or anywhere in scripture explicitly teaches the trinity doctrine as expressed in the Nicene creed as the author on the homepage points out so I don't see it as a definite necessity for Christianity but at the same time I won't say the doctrine is apostasy,heresy or blasphemy.
I don't say this in response to you Ed but as an addendum to my previous comments.Hope you understand and don't mind.
Love in Christ to all!
Hi Andrew, the 20 questions was a joke.Most baptists will ask you as series of questions
to find out if you are “a Christian” (according to them).God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
lol-yes I do what you mean.I had one guy ask me several questions like that not long ago and I got the feeling it was just to see if I was someone he could even talk to.And he did ask me if I believe in the trinity and we discussed it for a bit.He told me to think of it like a trio of singers each singing their part of one perfect song.Ok-lol
He said he had something better than the triangle
Quote (Wakeup @ July 15 2012,12:16) Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,09:16) Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
Lightenup.Are you saying that God died on the cross,when he left jesus before he died; Eli Eli lama sabachtany?
Are you saying that mary changed Gods nappies,and fed on mary's breast?
can you tell me?
wakeup.
Yes that is what she is saying if she says that Jesus is God and was God when he walked the Earth.It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke.
Colter
Quote (Wakeup @ July 14 2012,17:16) Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,09:16) Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
Lightenup.Are you saying that God died on the cross,when he left jesus before he died; Eli Eli lama sabachtany?
Are you saying that mary changed Gods nappies,and fed on mary's breast?
can you tell me?
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
Jesus died on the cross according to His flesh, not according to His divinity, as I understand it.Also, the one who pre-existed flesh as a heavenly being, even the only begotten God, humbled Himself and took on a different form. He became a human baby while still remaining who He was according to His pre-existent nature, as divinity. Being truly a human baby according to the limitations of the human flesh nature, He depended on others for His care as any other human baby would.
Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,15:56) It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke. Colter
No ,we would not do that we would listen and believe ,but guys like you would bring up new scriptures to him and tell him he should use these in stead of the scriptures of his father ,this is the liar that call the truthful a liar first to try to gain power over the other
Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,08:56) It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke. Colter
Hi ColterYou are the only one preaching a different Jesus here.
You still didn't answer my first question to you?
What about all the people who worshiped God according to the holy scriptures before the UB came out from the US in the 1940's?
Were they all deceived?
Was their worship in vain?
What truth did they have to follow?Would a fair God do this, keep those searching for him blind and deceived for 2000 odd years with nothing to go on?
Please answer this question.
Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,11:56) It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke. Colter
Hi Colter.You are a member of Heaven Net.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,16:26) Hi Wakeup,
Jesus died on the cross according to His flesh, not according to His divinity, as I understand it.Also, the one who pre-existed flesh as a heavenly being, even the only begotten God, humbled Himself and took on a different form. He became a human baby while still remaining who He was according to His pre-existent nature, as divinity. Being truly a human baby according to the limitations of the human flesh nature, He depended on others for His care as any other human baby would.
But LU, according to you, God had to be toilet trained etc.Quote (Lightenup @ July 16 2012,13:26) Quote (Wakeup @ July 14 2012,17:16) Quote (Lightenup @ July 12 2012,09:16) Pierre,
So, the God of gods has more authority than the Lord of lords…Jehovah is still both of them.You may have given your child everything and you are in authority over your child…that is why you are the father and they are not. Still you and your child are part of a unity.
Lightenup.Are you saying that God died on the cross,when he left jesus before he died; Eli Eli lama sabachtany?
Are you saying that mary changed Gods nappies,and fed on mary's breast?
can you tell me?
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
Jesus died on the cross according to His flesh, not according to His divinity, as I understand it.Also, the one who pre-existed flesh as a heavenly being, even the only begotten God, humbled Himself and took on a different form. He became a human baby while still remaining who He was according to His pre-existent nature, as divinity. Being truly a human baby according to the limitations of the human flesh nature, He depended on others for His care as any other human baby would.
Lightenup.Let me tell you what is the truth:
1.Our God the father,(JHWH) has never experience death.
To die only means that he was under satans power,because satan is death itself: death will only be conquered,when satan is no more.2. No human person has ever touched The fathers body in any way nor form: flesh or not flesh.
3. The father has never sucked on any womans breast for food;either in the flesh or not flesh.
4.When Jesus cried ''my God ,my God''—-
why have you forsaken me''. HE WAS NOT PLAYING HOLLYWOOD.5. When jesus said,''I am the son of God''. It is the truth, He does not speak with a split tongue.
6. The word became flesh: never change it to God was made flesh.
A small twist can cause a big fall.
wakeup.
Wakeup……….How about when Jesus said He was SON of MAN over 80 times does that mean anything to you. Question is in what way was Jesus a Son of GOD, and in what way are we called Sons of GOD also.
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ July 16 2012,18:48) Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,11:56) It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke. Colter
Hi Colter.You are a member of Heaven Net.
True that but you don't see me tring to diminish direct quotes from Jesus by using quotes from other writers in the bible who are characterizing the same event. The writers of the books about Jesus that the church converted to scripture are not equal to JesusBible worshipers make all scripture equally binding, so they can then form the thousands of doctrines using the same book.
Colter
Quote (journey42 @ July 16 2012,17:09) Quote (Colter @ July 16 2012,08:56) It would have been an interesting spectacle to behold, the members of Heaven Net trying to correct Jesus every time he misspoke. Colter
Hi ColterYou are the only one preaching a different Jesus here.
You still didn't answer my first question to you?
What about all the people who worshiped God according to the holy scriptures before the UB came out from the US in the 1940's?
Were they all deceived?
Was their worship in vain?
What truth did they have to follow?Would a fair God do this, keep those searching for him blind and deceived for 2000 odd years with nothing to go on?
Please answer this question.
Only michanical man made doctrines of authority hyjack the personal relationship between God and man.Anyone looking for God can find God quite apart from the bible.
Colter
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