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Death – in once sense must mean separation
We were once dead in trespass and sin
Separated from God and the life that is in God.
Death in the flesh separates our spirit from the body.
Yet death is only a change of geography from one place to another.
When the born again believer dies he has another body – a spirit one, waiting…
Then there is the final and ultimate separation, that which is irreversible, the 2nd death, which involves the annihilation of the soul – seems it takes a long time and is not a pleasant experience…Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 11 2006,01:20) Death – in once sense must mean separation
We were once dead in trespass and sin
Separated from God and the life that is in God.
Death in the flesh separates our spirit from the body.
Yet death is only a change of geography from one place to another.
When the born again believer dies he has another body – a spirit one, waiting…
Then there is the final and ultimate separation, that which is irreversible, the 2nd death, which involves the annihilation of the soul – seems it takes a long time and is not a pleasant experience…
Hi Malcolm,
Gen 2.7 shows man in two dimensions,
dust,
and living beings,
inner and outer man.
Outer man dies and rots away and his spirit returns to God[eccl 12.7].
The inner man sleeps in the earth till awoken to eternal life or the second and different death.Amen
Like I say separation, at present when in our sinful state we were separate from God and all things pertaining to Him, the Kingdom.
Rebirth lifted this death from us and now in the inner man, we are alive to God through Christ Jesus our Lord, no more separate.
Yet death in the flesh does separate us from the body of flesh.
And one glorious day, even our flesh will be quickened, changed from this mortal state to an immortal state, no more separation.
And by the same token, those who even now are dead, separate from God in sin, are separated from the body (1st death – outer man, body) and will face a judgement to come and possible separation permanent – (2nd death – inner man, soul)
The soul that sins shall die.
For now the body dies, because the body is in sin through transgression in the garden…Hi Malcolm,
In the Garden Adam chose obedience to the Serpent Satan over Obedience to God.
Thus Satan was made our father and the god of this world.
Thus we are all controlled by “the prince of the power of the air”,by “the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience”[Eph 2.2].Perhaps when Christ told the Pharisees their father was the devil he was speaking to all who are not in him?
Hi,
Here is a thread on death.
There is a first and a second death. We may avoid both if the Lord returns soon. Some will experience both, but we should at least hope to avoid the second , prepared for the devil and his angels..Quote Perhaps when Christ told the Pharisees their father was the devil he was speaking to all who are not in him? They are not OF Him is what it says. How could it be IN Him? The disciples would have been included at that point then – as they were yet to be converted and did not receive the Holy Spirit till after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.
We are brought IN to Him by the life of the Holy Spirit, by one Spirit baptized into one body.
That is how I understand it.Good point,
The Word speaks to all generations, those who are not of him and those who are not in him included.But we are baptised INTO Christ by water too.
“Baptism saves you..”1Peter 3
Gal 3.27
“For all of you who were baptised into Christ have clothed youself with Christ”
Rom 6.4f
“Therefore we have been buried with himthrough baptism into death;
in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father,
so too we might walk in newness of life..
..so consider youselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus”You cannot pin the entire work of salvation upon the act of baptism, any more than you can say that hearing the word saves.
It is evident that hearing the word involves more than just a physical audio stimulation, it requiress understanding of the words.
It is equally obvious that the act of getting wet, doesn't do much for you either unless you have first repented.
For by grace we are save through faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works – lest any man should boast.
Baptism is a work that is done in recognition and obedience of faith in what God did for us.
Without the work of baptism – the claim of that work of redemption is futile, as it is only the obedient who are shown to be children.
However baptism alone doesn't prove anything.Hi Malcolm,
I do not disagree.The essential work of baptism is not a work of the baptised, but of the servant baptiser, following repentance and faith in God by the baptised.Hi,
Death is death of the body only as it is weak and vulnerable. Resurrection, as with Lazarus, reverses the process and reestablishes body function. Lazarus had been sleeping we are told by Jesus so we should believe the soul does not die at death.Hi,
Romans 6.7
“for he who has died is freed from sin”
The Jehovahs witnesses believe because of this verse all men are forgiven when they die!
Does anyone else agree with this interpretation?“The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23)
The payment for sin is…..death.
And the dead, “as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages.” (Eccl. 9:5)
Through death, they have paid for their sinful state. The wages sin pays is death.
I believe Romans 6:7, literally says:
'He who has died has been “justifed” from his sin.'
[Lit., “has been justified.” Gr., de·di·kai´o·tai.]So what does this mean?
“The wages sin pays is death.”
If someone owes you a certain wage for a job which is stated as $100, and you get that $100, do you imagine there is more owing?Quote (david @ June 22 2006,07:27) “The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23) The payment for sin is…..death.
And the dead, “as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages.” (Eccl. 9:5)
Through death, they have paid for their sinful state. The wages sin pays is death.
I believe Romans 6:7, literally says:
'He who has died has been “justifed” from his sin.'
[Lit., “has been justified.” Gr., de·di·kai´o·tai.]So what does this mean?
“The wages sin pays is death.”
If someone owes you a certain wage for a job which is stated as $100, and you get that $100, do you imagine there is more owing?
Hi david,
Wow.
So nothing has changed from Adam in the garden.“The wages of sin is death”
That's all folks.
So, according to david, there was no need for Jesus to come and give his life.
There was the OT Law to find and follow if we wanted to avoid sin.
There is no judgement.
There is no condemnation for all men.
Death is the end for sinners so eat drink and be merry because all you will face is the common fate of all men and animals and plants-death.
So what if scripture says all have sinned-death is the only consequence for david.For him heaven awaits Jehovahs witnesses[the little flock]and some others enjoy a possible eternal life on earth. But these are bonuses for good behaviour.
No wonder you have struggled with the idea of the second death, the lake of fire, into which are cast angels and men and death itself, the first death, that is your only wages.
Read your bible again david and fear him who has the power to destroy the body and soul in the eternal lake of fire.
Hi david,
Is there two resurrections?
If there is a second resurrection will all raised face judgement and possible condemnation?
Or is Matthew 25 just a fable or an allegory?Hi david,
Jn 3.16
” For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life..”
Jn 3.36
'He who believe sin the Son has eternal life ; but he who does not obey the Son does not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him”There seems to be two choices here-eternal life in the Son or perishing under the wrath of God.
Do you see this as just ordinary death with no further consequences for the disobedient?Nick, I often get the feeling that you purposely say things that are wrong in an attempt to paint me in a bad light, when you know that what you are saying isn't true.
Do you really think that there was no need for Jesus to come and give his life as a ransom sacrifice?
I don't see how you could. Yet, you say this. “Wow” back at you.
I say one thing. You jump to several wrong conclusions that you must know are wrong and state that this is what I believe.Why?
Why do you do that?
For what good noble purpose do you do that?
Quote (david @ June 29 2006,08:34) Nick, I often get the feeling that you purposely say things that are wrong in an attempt to paint me in a bad light, when you know that what you are saying isn't true.
Do you really think that there was no need for Jesus to come and give his life as a ransom sacrifice?
I don't see how you could. Yet, you say this. “Wow” back at you.
I say one thing. You jump to several wrong conclusions that you must know are wrong and state that this is what I believe.Why?
Why do you do that?
For what good noble purpose do you do that?
Hi david,
It is your false JW reasoning that leads me to propose that conclusion;
Because you say
all are saved at death and
thus there is no condemnation for any man
so then surely there was no need for Jesus to come and die for us?[which proves the folly of the doctrine you teach]After men die, david, they all are eventually due to face the judgement seat of Jesus described in Matt 25[though in Jesus men can avoid it]
You have yet to reply to the question about judgement.
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