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Hi Adam,
You said this to Gene:
Please take the example of Mike who calls Jesus another god among the multiple gods mentioned in the OT. Sister Kathi claims Jesus as another Yahweh along with Father Yahweh. Proclaimer and other preexisting believers claim that Jesus was created by God before all creation and came to Jerusalem after leaving his divine nature. Sister Jodi and yourself claim that Jesus was just a human like you and me but he was Jewish Messiah who died for our sins and became a savior of the mankind.
If you kept this list going but added what the book of John claims and the book of Hebrews claim and what the modern day Protestant church claims, how would you complete the sentence. For example:
The book of John claims that Jesus was _______…
The book of Hebrews claims that Jesus was _______…
The modern day Protestant church claims that Jesus was _______…
Blessings, LU
Hi Gadam
You certainly know this text :
What do You think about ?
1Cor.13
Hi Berean, thank you so much for your encouragement through the ‘Charity Chapter’ in the Bible.
If you kept this list going but added what the book of John claims and the book of Hebrews claim and what the modern day Protestant church claims, how would you complete the sentence. For example:
The book of John claims that Jesus was _______…
The book of Hebrews claims that Jesus was _______…
The modern day Protestant church claims that Jesus was _______…
Hi Sis Kathi, I know you will certainly reply my post because of your zeal for Jesus. Yes the list could have been included with the above fill in the blanks too. This is the reason why I always argue with Mike, Proclaimer and Gene on Jesus who was declared as Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT.
Hi Adam,
It is refreshing that you also see that the NT is declaring Jesus as a “Co-person with God in all activities starting from the first creation and ending with new creation mainly based on the NT”, as you say.
Would you say that the blanks could have also said that Jesus was a Co-Yahweh with God or something similar to that?
To all…….Jesus never acted in the capacity of a Creator God at all never did he ever mention a prexisting life he had, he only mentioned a preordained Glory, and other aspects of his life, which related to the prophecies regarding him, that is all I have ever got from our text.
What I believe is This, Jesus was a human active Servant of God the Father, and as such he had the full authority of the Father to speak on his behalf. Because the Father sent him to speak for him and do the things he did.
This example of a servant caring the complete authority of his master is spread out in many scriptures throuout our scriptures , Jesus even related to it, when he said the servant is not above his master , but that it was enough that the Servant be as his master.
I would like to take something out of the “Focus on the kingdom” , that I think explains Jesus’ position the best. It’s from a one of the top biblical scholars of the 20th centery, G.B. Caird.
“So completely is the ideal Davidic king identified with the purpose of God, that he can be dignified with the title of God himself [e.g., Ps 45:6 ]. This practice of treating the agent AS THOUGH he were the principle is of great importance for New Testement Christology”
The Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion defines the biblical principle of agency as, (Heb. Shaliach ) , The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, a person’s agent , is regarded as the person himself. Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle. In the bible we find many examples of this law of agency.
Human agents of other humans.
Gen. 43-44 , the steward of Joseph is treated by Joseph’s brothers as if he were Joseph himself.
Luke 7:6-10, the friends of the Centurion speaks as the Centurion and is addressed by Jesus as if they are the Centurion himself .
John 3:22 says Jesus was baptizing people, yet the next chapter says, ‘Jesus did NOT HIMSELF baptized , but his disciples were.
There are many more examples where the agent speaks as if he were the principle , Jesus was God the Father agent and carries the authority of the Father also. He is the exact representation of God the Father to us, sent from the Father himself. But none of that ever made Jesus , God himself.
Peace and love to you all and yours. ……..gene
Gene
There are many more examples where the agent speaks as if he were the principle , Jesus was God the Father agent and carries the authority of the Father also. He is the exact representation of God the Father to us, sent from the Father himself. But none of that ever made Jesus , God himself.
Me
Interesting Gene…
JESUS IS NAMMED BY JOHN” THE WORD ” OR “THE WORD OF GOD”
👉JOHN1:1 and Rev.19:13
BECAUSE HE IS ONE WITH GOD
FROM ALWAYS.
👉 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.(Heb.13:8)
AND “THE WORD” WAS WITH THE GOD AND “THE WORD” WAS GOD.
All things were made by HIM ; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made.(John 1:3)
Trinity, Binity, Zeroinity have this in common. Jesus Christ is not truly the son of Godto them. The bible applies a term to people who deny the Son. Can you guess what that might be.
But for Believers, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And it was God that made him Lord just to put this in context.
He is the son of God, the messiah, and lord of God’s creation. The first born of and over creation. The image of the invisible God.
Many are they who teach contrary things about Jesus.
Hi Proclaimer
Trinity, Binity, Zeroinity have this in common. Jesus Christ is not truly the son of Godto them. The bible applies a term to people who deny the Son. Can you guess what that might be.
The Son is the reflection of the glory of the Father, the very imprint of HIS PERSON.
WHICH MEANS AMONG OTHER THINGS THAT HE SHARES THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE
OMNISCIENCE
OMNIPRESENCE….WHO IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD?
THIS IS THE FATHER.
BUT I SAY THAT THE FATHER, BECAUSE OF WHAT HE IS (Holy, Wise, Love….) HE NEEDED THE SON TO CONDUCT HIS ETERNAL GLOBAL PURPOSES.Many can see that The only begotten Son of God is equivalent to The only begotten God who was with God in the beginning and they together act as one within the unity of Yahweh God. Missing that leads to what we see here on HN. Embracing The divine Unity within Yahweh will help everybody move alone in their spiritual life, imo.
To All……Being an agent of someone is not being that person yourself , that’s the Error of the “MANY” , that the trinitarians teach. It’s one thing to say an “agent” is a direct representative the “principle”, but quite another to say the agent “IS” the priniciple.
Remember what Jesus said, “many would come in my name, “SAYING”, “I am” , and deceive many”. You see by saying, Jesus (the agent) IS THE (PRINCIPLE), IS, (the) LIE, 2 Ths 2 , is talking about, remember, “because they received not the love of the truth , God would send unto them a deluding Spirit , in order for them to believe ( the LIE )” that lie is, making the (agent) “Jesus ” the (principle) GOD.
So, the big deception or LIE, is those who try to make Jesus (the agent) into God, (the principle), that Jesus the (agent) serves.
Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
Gene
So, the big deception or LIE, is those who try to make Jesus (the agent) into God, (the principle), that Jesus the (agent) serves.
Jésus IS THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD FROM HEAVEN. (John3:16/6:38)
He IS “THE WORD OF GOD”(John 1:1)
He IS “the brightness of the glory OF God and the express image of his person” (Hebrews1:3)
He said in John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of HIM that sent me.
And in John 10:30 :
I and my Father are one.
Gene,
You don’t know what the trinitarians teach. They don’t teach that the Son is the “principal” within the Godhead. They teach that the Father is the head within the unity. Similarily, Jesus is the “head” within the unity of the body, the church.
HN would be a more intelligent place to discuss things regarding faith if this concept was not continually mis-understood by Proclaimer, Mike, and you, Gene and some others.
Trinity, Binity, Zeroinity have this in common. Jesus Christ is not truly the son of Godto them. The bible applies a term to people who deny the Son. Can you guess what that might be.
But for Believers, there is one God the Father and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And it was God that made him Lord just to put this in context.
He is the son of God, the messiah, and lord of God’s creation. The first born of and over creation. The image of the invisible God.
Many are they who teach contrary things about Jesus.
Hi Proclaimer, it’s on lighter spirits the way you quoted the God series “Trinity, Binity, Zeronity”. The question often raised by me here on the so called the defence tactics played by the NT writers on denying Jesus the son along with God in every thing right from creation of God to end of the ages.
I always ask here where from this so called formula of “One God the Father and One Lord Jesus” obtained by these writers especially Paul the Hellenistic Jew.
You say that many are teaching contrary things about Jesus but I ask here why they had written so many contrary things on this first century Jew and made him another god, co-person with God, co-creator, Savior of mankind, non-human Messiah without any basis so on and so forth.
These confusing things created so much havoc and disharmony in the history of Christianity.
These confusing things created so much havoc and disharmony in the history of Christianity.
Hi Gadam
It is Satan who causes men to sin in many ways and thus to twist what is right, to defile what is pure and holy.
Revelation 12:13
When the dragon saw that he had been cast down to earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.Rev.12:14 And the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly away into the wilderness, to her place, where she is fed for a time, times, and half a time , away from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And from his mouth the serpent sent forth water like a river after the woman, to drag her down by the river.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon had cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went forth to make war against the remnant of his seed, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
Hi Gadam,
You:I ask here why they had written so many contrary things on this first century Jew and made him another god, co-person with God, co-creator, Savior of mankind, non-human Messiah without any basis so on and so forth.
Me, what GOD’S OWN WORD in this scripture hereunder tells you?
Genesis 2:18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let US make him a help like unto himself.
ISN’T IT AS CLEAR AS CRYSTAL THAT GOD ALSO DECLARED THAT
HE WAS NEVER ALONE,
THE FACT THAT HE CREATED MAN IN THE IMAGE OF GOD AND LIKENESS!
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
To all……Seeing Jesus as an (agent) of God, is quite different then seeing him as God. A (agent) is a representative or servant of someone, or thing. They are never the (principle) themselves. Therein lies the problem we deal with here.
Trinitarians make Jesus out to be one of the (principles), instead of an (agent) representing the principal. Moses defines Jesus as a (prophet) like him, he gave no description of Jesus coming from a preexisting life whatsoever. In fact he said the God would raise up from among them a man like him. Who would be a (prophet ) like he was.
Scripture tells that in times past (God spoke) to us , through the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us through a Son. It is always God that is the one Speaking (through the prophets) yes God the Father, first person, speaking through all the true prophets.
No one can say that (only) Jesus, is the word of God, because many of the prophets spoke the words of God to us. Haven’t anyone here ever noticed that when Jesus spoke to the churches he always said “to him that has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit is saying” Jesus was not the one saying those things it was the Spirit Speaking through him, it was not Jesus saying it. Jesus was acting as the (agent), representing the (principle), GOD THE FATHER. Just that simple. IMO
Peace and love to you all and yours……….gene
Gene
Jesus is certainly more than you express, because the bible tells us that in the beginning HE WAS WITH GOD AND THAT HE WAS GOD.
IT’S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.
AND THE WORD (OR CHRIST) WAS MADE “FLESH” AND LIVED AMONG US FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.LU……Whose “word” came to be the flesh man Jesus? GOD THE FATHER’S (prophetic), WORD, Came into being, it was the “Flesh Man”, named Jesus Christ. This scripture is not susjesting that Jesus was somekind of (preexisting) word of God, before he ever came into his existence, as you people suppose.
God the Father did create Everything, Through the word, His own words, Not someone else’s words. AS I SAID YOU PEOPLE ARE GETTING THE (AGENT) mixed up with the (PRINCIPLE ).
Jesus sure understood the difference, and even told us the words he was telling us , were (not) his words, you see the question to me is, why don’t you believe him? , are you people saying Jesus is a liar, because he sure dosen’t agree with what you are saying about him. IMO
You make him a co-equal God , but Jesus said , “he could do “nothing of himself”. So if he is a God, who Jesus said, “could do “all” thing, then says he could do , nothing “of himself”. You certainly have a Hugh problem, on you hands. Why not try to explain that problem first? Just ignoring it solves nothing right?
If we boil the fat off, the simple truth is the (agent) is not the (principle ) it’s enough that he represent him. IMO
Peace and love to you and yours LU…………gene
Gene
In HIS divinity, Jésus IS co equal WITH God
👇
Who(Jesus), being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7]But
made himself of no reputation,
and
👇
took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The Son is the reflection of the glory of the Father, the very imprint of HIS PERSON.
WHICH MEANS AMONG OTHER THINGS THAT HE SHARES THE ATTRIBUTES OF HIS FATHER: OMNIPOTENCE OMNISCIENCE OMNIPRESENCE….He is the image of the invisible God. We are also images of God. Simple. except he is the full expression of God whereas we reflect God in part. Another difference is that he is the first born of all creation while we are also born of God if we are sons, but not the first. I think some of what you say in your post is speculation.
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