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You are free to believe in two Gods.
But in John 1:1, one is the God and the other is the Word. That is what it clearly says.
ME: For God’s sake:
GENESIS 1:1 IT SAYSIN THE PLURAL:
THE HEAVENS…..
WHAT ARE THESE HEAVENS?
Hi Mike,
You: Genesis 1:1 also says in the plural: GODS…..
WHO ARE THESE GODS?
OBVIOUS:
THE CREATED GODS!
LUCIFER WAS ONE OF THEM!
ON THE LAST DAY OF THE LORD,
GOD WOULD BE
ALL IN ALL
THERE’LL BE ONLY GODS LIKE GOD.
1John3:2 Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like to him:
because we shall see him as he is.
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Mike: You claim that the heaven and earth are excluded from the things God made in six days. God says that the heaven and earth are included in those things He made in six days.
WHICH OF YOU IS TELLING THE TRUTH?
Proclaimer: FIRST POSSIBILITY
The first is that the heavens and earth are created out of nothing or whatever. Then on the first day, the earth is terraformed by the Spirit of God hovering over the deep.This is the one that you, Gene, and Carmel have been promoting – and the one my question was designed to refute. Your “First Possibility” EXCLUDES the creation of the heaven and the earth from the six days of creation. God tells us in Ex 20:11 and 31:17 that the creation of the heaven and the earth are INCLUDED in the six days of creation.
And no, you cannot honestly change the meaning of the words, “In six days I made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them” to, “The heaven and earth were already there, and for six days I did stuff to them”.
Proclaimer, will you now acknowledge that your “First Possibility” isn’t a “possibility” at all? Or will you continue to call God a liar?
Proclaimer: SECOND POSSIBILITY
The second option assumes by the end of the first day, the universe is in existence. This includes a watery planet earth with God’s Spirit moving over the deep. Read it for yourself. Take the term ‘Day 1’ then look before that term to see what has been accomplished. Note points 1-5 are there before the evening of Day 1..1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep,
and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.3. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”
5. And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
We all agree that these things occurred on the first day of creation. And technically, since the word “universe” – first used in 1589 (long before “galaxies”, “dark matter” and other such nonsense) – means, “the whole body of things that exist”, your statement is accurate, because by the end of the first day, the whole body of things that existed at that time did indeed exist at that time. 😎
So what was this “universe” of “the whole body of things that existed” at the end of the first day of creation? Well, you listed them for us:
- A Watery Earth
- Darkness
- Light
- Separation of Light (called “day”) from Darkness (called “night”)
- One evening
- One morning
- One complete day
*Note, there was no heaven yet. That wasn’t created until the second day.
Proclaimer, do you agree with the Bible that the things which you and I have both listed above comprised the entire universe at that time – before God created the heaven?
Proclaimer: THIRD POSSIBILITY
The third option…is the universe is like a virtual world. Perhaps virtual to God and real to us.Proclaimer, can the creator of a virtual world also exist within that world? If so, what defines that world as “virtual” instead of “real”?
Proclaimer: In that case, 6 stages of building this cosmos and could be in an order that God chooses just as a human virtual world creator could create the stages in almost any order. Because the order doesn’t matter so much., what does matter is when the stages are complete, the world comes online.
Okay… let’s say that you were the creator of a virtual world. Over the course of 10 days, you created the people first, and then the land, and then the seas, and then the sun, moon, and stars, and then the animals, and then the plants. And let’s say you created this world to experience one day (sunrise to sunrise) every earth hour (so that your virtual people go through 24 days for every one of your earth days).
Proclaimer, after your virtual world has come online, would you, as the creator of that world, have any valid reason to LIE to your virtual people about the order in which you created them and their world? And would you tell them that you did it in “10 days”, knowing that they would understand that to mean 10 of their days – when it really took you 24 times longer to do it?
Proclaimer: This view too follows observation from both astronomical and quantum observation…
I think these three potentials above blow away the 6000 year old pizza model. That model appears to be more like a fairy tale for grownups who deny satellites and science…
Such are waiting for the return of a Jesus who has a samurai sword coming from his mouth and the Day of the Lord and Day of Judgement take place in a single 24 hour period. For me, this method is bad. It makes things silly and sound immature…
A day to the LORD is a long period of time compared to our day…
Proclaimer, there is no “astronomical and quantum observation” that contradicts the Bible. Nor do these things have any relevance to a discussion of what the Bible actually teaches in Genesis 1.
Nobody here denies satellites or science. Nor do these things have any relevance to a discussion of what the Bible actually teaches in Genesis 1.
Nobody here denies that the Bible contains some metaphorical language. Your personal interpretation of how long the Day of the Lord will be, or whether or not Jesus will return with a literal sword coming out of his mouth have no relevance to a discussion of what the Bible actually teaches in Genesis 1.
And despite the fact that you repeatedly use only one part of 2 Peter 3:8 (which says that a day to the Lord could be either a long time for us, or a SHORT time for us) – it has no relevance to a discussion of what the Bible actually teaches in Genesis 1.
Since you can’t seem to understand these things, I’ll give you a comparison…
LU: I think John 1:1 teaches a Binary Godhead.
Proclaimer: God experiences time different than us, and there are satellites and quarks, and the Bible has metaphors, so Jesus isn’t coming back with a sword sticking out of his mouth… I win!
Gene: I don’t think the Word in John 1:1 is Jesus.
Proclaimer: God experiences time different than us, and there are satellites and quarks, and the Bible has metaphors, so Jesus isn’t coming back with a sword sticking out of his mouth… I win!
Carmel: I think John 1:1 teaches a Trinity Godhead.
Proclaimer: God experiences time different than us, and there are satellites and quarks, and the Bible has metaphors, so Jesus isn’t coming back with a sword sticking out of his mouth… I win!
Mike: I think John 1:1 teaches that Jesus was a god who was with the God in the beginning.
Proclaimer: God experiences time different than us, and there are satellites and quarks, and the Bible has metaphors, so Jesus isn’t coming back with a sword sticking out of his mouth… I win!
Do you see how ridiculous it is when you include your own biases about things that have zero relevance to the topic? For example, you believe God took you to heaven once in a dream. I personally think that is as believable as when Carmel says unscriptural things and then claims that the Holy Spirit showed him those things. But I’m not a petulant child, and therefore I don’t try to “defeat” any arguments you make about the scriptures by saying, “Ha ha! You believe you went to heaven… therefore I win!”
Do you understand the point I’m trying to make here? A couple of posts ago, I highlighted the fact that we BOTH listed the things that God made and did on the first day. You saying a pizza earth is silly does NOT change that scriptural list. You talking about galaxies and quarks does NOT change that scriptural list. You pointing out that the Bible contains metaphors does NOT change that scriptural list. You erroneously claiming that God’s days are always LONGER than ours does NOT change that scriptural list.
Proclaimer, are you able to understand what I’ve just showed you? Will you try in the future to stay on point?
Mike: How long was each day in Genesis 1 AFTER the sun was made (or allowed to shine through)?
Proclaimer: The sun was already created as it is part of the universe. What happens on Day 4, is that they appear in the vault. The part about God creating the Sun, Moon, and Stars is him reminding us that he is the author. And that these objects now appear in the vault.
This is unscriptural nonsense, but on to your actual answer to my question…
Proclaimer: So how long was the day? A day to the LORD is a long period of time compared to our day.
This is also unscriptural. The scriptural teaching is that a day to the Lord can be either a long OR A SHORT period of time compared to our day.
Proclaimer: But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
This one keeps escaping you Mike it seems.
Actually, it is the latter part that keeps escaping you, Proclaimer. The teaching is that a day to the Lord is like a thousand years to us… AND a thousand years to the Lord are like a day to us. So although the way in which God experiences time compared to us is irrelevant to what is taught in Gen 1, I would point out that when you use this verse to insist that the days in Genesis were very LONG periods of time, I could just as easily use the same verse to insist that they were very SHORT periods of time. So while you say Day One could be 10 billion years, I could say that Day One lasted only 1 ten trillionth of a second.
But the bottom line is that a virtual creator would be twisting the truth if he told his virtual people that he did something in six days – knowing that they would understand it as six of their days – when in fact he did that thing in 14 billion of their years. That creator would be flat out LYING if he then went out of his way to EQUATE those six days with six of their days by telling them to work for six days and rest on the seventh BECAUSE he worked for six days and rested on the seventh.
Proclaimer, would you tell your virtual people that you did something in six days and rested on the seventh – and even undeniably EQUATE those days with six of their days – when it really took you many billions of their years to do that thing?
Proclaimer: There is nothing in scripture that states that God is dictated to by days of a certain length. He is God. Days respect him, not the other way round.
Ah… but my question isn’t about the relationship between God and days. It is about the relationship between the earth, the sun, and one day that includes a single evening and a single morning.
So while God may not be constrained to a 24-hour day, the earth in relation to the sun IS constrained to a 24-hour day, right?
Proclaimer, does an earth day in relation to the sun last 24 hours? Is there any scriptural reason to think that once the sun was created/shone through to govern the days on earth, and to specifically serve as a sign to mark earth days, that those days would be anything other than 24 hour days?
Proclaimer, the previous five posts contain a total of eleven direct questions that require a direct and honest answer from you… and zero unrelated pontification about pizzas and metaphors and satellites that are irrelevant to those questions.
Only one of the eleven questions requires more than a Yes or a No – but feel free to answer them all in any manner you wish. I only point this out to make it clear that, although it is a large number of questions, the time required to answer them is minimal.
Also, I have made all of the questions larger than the normal text, so you will have no problem finding and answering them. I will continue to do this for forthcoming questions as well, since it will make it harder for you to ignore them, and easier for me to find them and repost them after you do. 😉
And Proclaimer, in the likely chance that you say eleven questions is too many as an excuse to not answer any of them, I will repost the two most important right here:
1. PROCLAIMER, IF YOU CREATED A VIRTUAL WORLD, WOULD YOU TELL YOUR VIRTUAL PEOPLE THAT YOU DID SOMETHING IN SIX DAYS AND RESTED ON THE SEVENTH – AND EVEN UNDENIABLY EQUATE THOSE DAYS WITH SIX OF THEIR DAYS BY TELLING THEM TO ALSO WORK SIX DAYS AND REST ON THE SEVENTH – WHEN IN REALITY IT TOOK YOU MANY BILLIONS OF THEIR YEARS TO DO THAT THING YOU SAID YOU DID IN SIX DAYS?
2. PROCLAIMER, SINCE A CURRENT EARTH DAY IN RELATION TO THE SUN LASTS 24 HOURS, IS THERE ANY SCRIPTURAL REASON TO THINK THAT ONCE THE SUN WAS CREATED (OR ALLOWED TO SHINE THROUGH) – IN ORDER TO GOVERN THE DAYS ON EARTH, AND TO SPECIFICALLY SERVE AS A SIGN TO MARK EARTH DAYS – THAT ANY OF THE DAYS FOLLOWING THE APPEARANCE OF THE SUN WOULD BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE SAME 24 HOUR DAYS THAT WE EXPERIENCE NOW?
LU: How about this, the “light” was the glory of God on day one as it entered the dimension of creation. The sun did not appear until day four when it was created.
That’s a lot closer than Proclaimer has gotten so far, but how about this: God created light on the first day, and then created the sun on day four?
That is, after all, what God clearly told us He did, right?
Proclaimer: Before the closing of Day 1, God created the heavens and the earth.
Heaven was created on day two, not day one.
Proclaimer: Day 4 has the sun, moon, and stars in the vault. Not in the universe.
The universe is “everything that exists at any given time”.
Proclaimer: Is the vault the universe? No.
Correct. The vault is the firmament of heaven. It is where God placed the sun, moon, and stars on day four when He created those things. It is not the universe, because the firmament is not “everything that exists at any given time”.
Proclaimer: Mike thinks the vault is a glass dome.
Job 37:18… Have you, with Him, spread out the heaven, which is strong like a polished looking glass?
Psalm 104:2… He stretches out the heavens like a tent.
Isaiah 40:22… He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth… He stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
So do the people who wrote the Bible. But are you able to even realize that this is one of those statements that have no relevance to what Kathi said to you? What does the Biblical comparison of the vault to a glass dome/tent have to do with what LU said? What does the fact that I believe those scriptures have to do with what LU said?
Btw, the translation “vault” is not referring to a bank vault or something. It is referring to a “vaulted dome“.
New Revised Standard Version
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters…JPS Tanakh 1917
And God said: ‘Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters…New International Version
And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters…New American Bible
Then God said: Let there be a dome in the middle of the waters…King James Bible
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters…Lexham Expanded Bible
And God said, “Let there be a vaulted dome in the midst of the waters…
They all refer to and mean the same thing, Proclaimer.
So your zeal to shame me for believing how the Bible actually describes the vaulted dome of the firmament has apparently caused you to be unaware of the fact that every time you call it a vault, you are agreeing with me and the Bible. 😂
And to make matters worse, you created a strawman in which LU compared the “vault” to the “universe” (when she mentioned neither of those things in her comment) – and the proceeded to SCOLD her about the “mistake” she never made in the first place! 😅🤣
And to make matters even worse than that, in “modern astronomy”, the vault IS the universe, ie: outer space where all the stars and galaxies are! So you are in effect arguing that the sun and stars WERE already “in the vault”, and then on day four, God placed them “in the vault”! 😁😅😂🤣
LU: Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Proclaimer: Read it carefully. It is not saying that the earth will have no sun or moon.Revelation 22:5… There will be no more night in the city, and they will have no need for the light of a lamp or of the sun. For the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
I think it’s pretty clear that it’s saying there will be neither sun nor moon in New Jerusalem. But this is God’s city – not the entire earth. And it’s likely that this city is what Isaiah was talking about too…
Isaiah 60:18-20… No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or destruction within your borders. But you will name your walls Salvation and your gates Praise. No longer will the sun be your light by day, nor the brightness of the moon shine on your night; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your splendor. Your sun will no longer set, and your moon will not wane; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and the days of your sorrow will cease.
Proclaimer: Regardless, the text simply says that there is no need for the shine of the sun and moon. It doesn’t say that there is no need for the heat the sun provides or the gravity that the sun and moon provide for example. Just the shine.
How is the sun able to produce the heat without shining – when in your mind the thing that causes the sun to produce heat on earth is the very thing that also makes it shine on the earth?
And what about Isaiah 60? What does it mean in your model that the sun and moon will not only cease to shine light, but also cease to set and wane? How will that effect the heat situation and the gravity situation?
Proclaimer: When reading scripture, we need to be more sophisticated and to look carefully at the detail. This matters.
Come on, man. You are talking to people who know as much about scriptures as you do… and in many cases even more than you do. You made a good observation that Revelation only mentions the shine of the sun… but you can certainly do that without adding in the arrogant condescending implication you are somehow more “sophisticated” (whatever that means) than Kathi.
Berean: Apparently God created the heavens…. (first)
Is this really the case when we consider verse 2 from the human point of view?
[2] And the earth was formless and empty; and darkness covered the face of the abyss. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The answer is no
BUT FROM GOD’S POINT OF VIEW WE CAN BELIEVE THAT IT IS, FOR GOD CALLS THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS IF THEY ARE….(Rom.4:17)
I only quoted part of it, but that was a very good post, Berean. The answer is indeed no – since God didn’t create the heaven until the second day. I don’t agree that God was calling something that didn’t exist as if it did, though. I believe begins with an prologue, and Gen 2:1-3 is the epilogue. Consider…
Gen 1:1… In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
He did this.
He did that.
Then He did this.
Then He did that.
Gen 2:1-3… Thus the heaven and the earth were completed in all their vast array. And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
So I believe 1:1 is saying, “In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth in the following manner…”, and Gen 2:1 is saying, “And that ends the overview portion of the manner in which God created the heaven and earth.” (Remember that the original OT wasn’t written in chapters. The overview that began in Gen 1:1 concluded in Gen 2:3.)
And then Gen 2:4 begins the man-centered order of events, shining more light on specific things that have to do with Adam and Eve – as opposed to the overview we just read in 1:1 through 2:3.
Berean: Apparently God created the heavens…. (first)
Is this really the case when we consider verse 2 from the human point of view?
The answer is no
BUT GOD CALLS THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS IF THEY ARE….(Rom.4:17)
Proclaimer, I’m curious to see what you think about Berean using Romans 4:17 to support the scriptural fact that the heaven wasn’t created until day two… in apparent contradiction to Gen 1:1. Is that a legit use of 4:17 in your opinion?
LU: In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; they will all wear out like a garment.
Proclaimer do you believe that the sun will not perish when the heavens perish? Do you think the sun remains and its years will never end?
Oh no she didn’t! 🙂
I too anxiously await enlightenment from the Great Sage on this matter.
Proclaimer: You are free to believe in two Gods.
But in John 1:1, one is the God and the other is the Word. That is what it clearly says.
The Bible clearly and undeniably teaches about the existence of many different gods. John 1:1 speaks about a god who was with the Most High God in the beginning, and has, as one of his many titles, the Word of God because he is God’s preeminent spokesman. That god is Jesus.
Proclaimer has been arguing in another thread (and for years) that claiming other gods might lead people away from Christianity. Because of this irrelevant belief that doesn’t change a single word in the Bible, he prefers to think John 1:1 says the Word was “divine” – despite it not saying that or even including the Greek word for “divine”.
In other words, it is better in his mind to insert his own words into the Biblical text than to just teach it like John himself taught it.
He realizes that the Greek language doesn’t use the indefinite articles “a” and “an” like we do in English. So when we read “the god” in Greek, it’s usually talking about the Most High God. And when we read “god” without the definite article “the”, we usually translate into English as “a god” – because that’s what it means. It is the same for “man”. Let me give an example…
Acts 12:22… They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”
Now the Greek says “of god voice and not of man”. Of course we don’t talk that way in English… but we know what the words mean. And so we add the indefinite article “a” into two places and rearrange the wording so that it makes sense to those of us who speak English.
But the point is that just because the Greek says “this is the voice of god” – it doesn’t mean it is talking about THE god, Yahweh. And when it says it’s “not the voice of man” – it doesn’t mean it’s talking about THE man, Adam.
Instead, we know that since both man and god are written without the definite article “the”, the writer is saying Herod was speaking with the voice of A god, and not the voice of A man. Another example…
Acts 28:5-6… But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god.
Again, the Greek is “he was god”. There’s no reason to believe that the islanders thought Paul was the Most High God, and so we understand it as – and translate it as – “they thought he was A god”… as in a supernatural being who is unaffected by the poison of the snake.
In 1:1, John clearly tells us that the Word was with THE God (definite article included), and that the Word was god (no definite article). Just like with Acts 28, since there is no reason to believe that John was an idiot who thought Jesus WAS the very God he was WITH in the beginning, we would correctly translate part c as “and the Word was a god”.
Many translators have rendered it the correct way for centuries. And the only reason the others don’t render it correctly is because they have a personal (albeit unscriptural and irrational) belief that Jesus can BE the very God he is the son, servant, messiah, lamb, spokesman, holy one, priest, and prophet OF – and so they purposely translate it erroneously as “and the Word was God”.
LU: I believe that post about John 1c is about two different persons who are both referred to as theos.
That is correct. Just like Job 1 and 2 are about the discourse between two different persons (Yahweh and Satan) who are both referred to all throughout scripture as gods.
Mike: Genesis 1:1 also says in the plural: GODS….. WHO ARE THESE GODS?
Carmel: OBVIOUS:
THE CREATED GODS!
LUCIFER WAS ONE OF THEM!
So Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning, the gods (including Lucifer) created the heaven and the earth? Are you sure?
Hi Mike,
You: So Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning, the gods (including Lucifer) created the heaven and the earth? Are you sure?
Me; I told you who are the gods!
Now, in the first place, I asked you, who are the heavens, instead, you asked another question and I answered.
NO MORE QUESTIONS OK?
You tell me NOW
WHO OR WHAT ARE THE HEAVENS IN GENESIS 1:1 PLEASE?
Peace and love in Jesus Christ
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