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Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2007,08:04) Quote For a “God” to have a “human” son – that just doesn't jive. –Mandy.
Is not adam called the son of God?
Quote Now…..who is willing to say that Jesus was truly conceived? –Mandy
Mandy, I'm really not sure where you're going with this word “conception.”
Those who translated the Bible from the original language use that word “conceive.”
You go and give a scientific definition of what that English word means. Maybe we should go look at the actual word that was translated as “conceive.”Still, I am not sure what you are saying here. You list all this stuff and then ask: who is willing to say Jesus was truly conceived? Are you saying the Bible translation of that word “conceive” is wrong? What are you saying?
Earlier, I had been talking with you about how I believe Jesus is fully 100% human, how he was, as the Bible says “made flesh” and how you believe it's impossible for Jehovah to make a pre-existent Jesus into a true human.
How would you say this is connected to your idea about conception?
David, are you agreeing with me that Jesus had a human biological father? If so, was he Joseph?Stuart
Quote David, are you agreeing with me No I am not. I am just trying to figure out what mandy believes.
Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2007,09:05) Quote David, are you agreeing with me No I am not. I am just trying to figure out what mandy believes.
What do you believe?Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 12 2007,20:34) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 12 2007,11:37) Its a huge stretch to say that your son existed in your husband before he was born.
Is it a stretch? I don't think that it is, look what I found: Levi was in the body of his ancestor before he was born.Hebrews 7:9
One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.I appreciate your input WJ. Thoughts on this, please – anyone?
not3LOL! Just seen this.
There you go with another stretch.
We are children of Abraham by promise, but were we in his loins, physically in his loins?
Gal 3:19
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.The reality is levi would come out of his loins through Jacob but not that he already existed in his loins physically.
Your anology says that your son was your husband because he was in your husband. And again you didnt answer my question what if you and your husband would have never met?
Its not the same thing anyway.
John 1:1 says what it says that the “Word was God”.
I dont see where Heb 7:9 says “Levi was Abraham”.
Nor were we Abraham.
Why not accept the “Word” as it reads? If it was to be translated another way then they would have done it.
If you believe that the translators were biased then what do you have as a bible? Do you read Greek or Hebrew?
Besides make up your mind sis. You are trying to say that Jesus was the Father and yet you say Jesus was concieved as a divine man. So if the Father is God and Jesus was the Father then Jesus would be part God (The Father) and part man (Mary), “Godman”. Just like your son is part you and part your husband. “Human”, Right?
So Jesus is part divine and part man. So he is not at all like us? Now I have a question for you.
If Jesus as you say “Was God” because he was in the Fathers loins (like your son was in your husbands loins) then what about him being the seed of David? did he exist in Davids loins also and was he also David?
In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with David and Jesus was David?
So much confusion could be cleared up by just accepting the Scriptures as they say.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 14 2007,07:52) You are not only christian, but funadamentalist – you believe things to be literally true that other christians consider to be historical fable, for example the existence of Adam and Eve, which is not supported by fossil evidence and is therefore rejected by many devout christians. So the rule of thumb seems to be, accept science when it matches the bible, substitute magic when there is a contradiction. Is this unfair?
Hi Stu,Well, I guess you can add “funadamentalist” to the growing list of boxes that folks like to put me in. For instance, I grow organic veggies and fruit and am somewhat of a health nut, so folks (affectionately) refer to me as a “neo-Hippy.” I love to study the Bible and so I'm a “Bible-thumper” to some of my friends. I keep bees and so my neighbor's call me a “Bug-lover.” Sure, I'll add “funadamentalist” to the list! Why not? I am fun!
I guess you could call me a: Neo-hippy, Bible thump'en, Bug-lov'en – Funadamentalist! When you say it real fast, it almost sounds like your swearing! Ha!But seriously, Stu, insert “faith” where you see “magic” and you would be correct.
Quote Is not adam called the son of God?
Tell me David, will Adam need to be adopted into the Kingdom of God, or does he already belong? Adam is covered by Jesus, is he not? The direct and pity answer to your question is yes – Adam is a son of God. But Jesus is THE Son of God – the only (See John 3:16, 18). In John, Jesus is called the “only” Son, but we know that God had many sons. What do you think the difference is between the sonship of Jesus and the sonship of other sons?Quote Still, I am not sure what you are saying here. You list all this stuff and then ask: who is willing to say Jesus was truly conceived? Are you saying the Bible translation of that word “conceive” is wrong? What are you saying?
The translator's use the word “conceive” – does it have another meaning other than the scientific one? If so, I am unaware of this definition. Perhaps you could bring that definition to the board for review.Quote Earlier, I had been talking with you about how I believe Jesus is fully 100% human, how he was, as the Bible says “made flesh” and how you believe it's impossible for Jehovah to make a pre-existent Jesus into a true human. How would you say this is connected to your idea about conception?
This is such a well thought-out question that it almost sounds like it belongs on a college exam.The angel encouraged Mary by telling her that Elizabeth had conceived and was pregnant as well.
Luke 1:35,36
….the one to be born will be called the Son of God.Even elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age……
We are led to believe that because the angel is drawing this comparison for Mary that she is to be comforted to know, God has done a marvelous thing for her relative as well. Zechariah is the father of JTB, to be sure; and the conception of JTB happened in the natural order of things. Therefore we can draw the conclusion that Mary had conceived and was with child just as Elizabeth was (except the miracle was that God's holy spirit provided what was needed to make this happen).
The reason a true conception is so important is because it allows Jesus to be the only Son of God in the literal sense. It allows Jesus to be his own person – a unique person – a new person – never before alive person – to be born. This has to be, of course, because when true conception took place, Mary's DNA was combined with what God provided and was FUSED.
Your idea of a preexistent angel being supernaturally transported into Mary does not allow for a true conception to take place. If this angel (Michael) was conceived inside of Mary along with her DNA —– poor Michael would have gotten a total body make-over and came out of the womb a completely different person.
David, I know you won't agree with me and that is OK. I have to run and fix dinner now, I wish I had a few more moments to add more, but I hope this makes sense to you.
Conception takes half the chromosomes from one parent, and half from the other parent……..they fuse together………and out YOU come! Out JTB came, and out Jesus came! Incarnation does not allow for true conception, it just doesn't no matter how you change definitions. Thanks.
Stu,
Most of the folks on here are not Fundies. WJ probably comes the closest (no insult to WJ!). Most of us would be branded as heretics by the average Fundie. Fundamentalists are typically identified with the Protestant movement and most of us fall outside of that realm. What we are, though, are people who tend to believe in scripture as being true. I can't speak for the rest of us, but while I believe scripture to be true, I don't believe what we have today is 100% accurate. These may seem like contradictory ideals, but they are not really. Its hard to explain. I think the best way to describe it is that I believe that what was originally written was 100% accurate and that over time we have a corrupted version of scripture due to human error and bias.
The Christians you are describing — the ones who believe some parts of the Bible is fable and myth — are called liberals. But there are many who are not liberals who would not fit in the fundamentalist category.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,09:34) Besides make up your mind sis. You are trying to say that Jesus was the Father and yet you say Jesus was concieved as a divine man. So if the Father is God and Jesus was the Father then Jesus would be part God (The Father) and part man (Mary), “Godman”. Just like your son is part you and part your husband. “Human”, Right? So Jesus is part divine and part man. So he is not at all like us? Now I have a question for you.
If Jesus as you say “Was God” because he was in the Fathers loins (like your son was in your husbands loins) then what about him being the seed of David? did he exist in Davids loins also and was he also David?
Correct. I am saying that Jesus is the literal Son of God and Mary.This is percisely how Jesus is able to be the Root and the Offspring of David.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,14:31) Stu, Most of the folks on here are not Fundies. WJ probably comes the closest (no insult to WJ!). Most of us would be branded as heretics by the average Fundie. Fundamentalists are typically identified with the Protestant movement and most of us fall outside of that realm. What we are, though, are people who tend to believe in scripture as being true. I can't speak for the rest of us, but while I believe scripture to be true, I don't believe what we have today is 100% accurate. These may seem like contradictory ideals, but they are not really. Its hard to explain. I think the best way to describe it is that I believe that what was originally written was 100% accurate and that over time we have a corrupted version of scripture due to human error and bias.
The Christians you are describing — the ones who believe some parts of the Bible is fable and myth — are called liberals. But there are many who are not liberals who would not fit in the fundamentalist category.
That's very interesting. you would forgive me I hope for wondering whether you live in the US – I think it is generally accepted by those of us who don't that what we call fundamentalist is just about mainstream in America.I guess as you say there is a wide range of interpretation of scripture, and you might imagine that every one of those interpreters would say they have the right take on it.
Can they all be right? Who is to be trusted?
Stuart
Stuart Right now there is a wide range of confusion, but one Day when Jesus will return and will set up His Kingdom here on earth, we have the testimony of the Apostle that He will, the truth will cover the earth like the sand covers the sea. But until then there will always be divisions and confusion even among Christians. That is why We have to belief by Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. If you would have His Holy Spirit you would experience things in your Life, and you would know Him. You cannot explain Him in the realm of Human understanding like you are trying to do. All I can say to you try Him, you might like Him. Give Him a chance to make Him known to you. Right now you are far away from Him and therefore you do not know Him. Start praying I know some here have done that for you already. You see I just cant understand why you stick around, unless there is something in you that really wants to know. I would like to know what happened to you, what did your Parents teach you, you must come out of a Family , right? I don't want to become personal that is none of my business, but a person does not stop believing, if He has before unless something happened. So either start believing now or later it is your choice.
Peace and Love Mrs.:D
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2006,14:15) Hi Malcolm,
It comes back to why scripture says “conceive”. Scripture is exact and accurate.
I agree with Nick here.Can someone show me where the bible means conceive to mean something other than what we understand conception to mean?
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 15 2007,07:00) Stuart Right now there is a wide range of confusion, but one Day when Jesus will return and will set up His Kingdom here on earth, we have the testimony of the Apostle that He will, the truth will cover the earth like the sand covers the sea. But until then there will always be divisions and confusion even among Christians. That is why We have to belief by Faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. If you would have His Holy Spirit you would experience things in your Life, and you would know Him. You cannot explain Him in the realm of Human understanding like you are trying to do. All I can say to you try Him, you might like Him. Give Him a chance to make Him known to you. Right now you are far away from Him and therefore you do not know Him. Start praying I know some here have done that for you already. You see I just cant understand why you stick around, unless there is something in you that really wants to know. I would like to know what happened to you, what did your Parents teach you, you must come out of a Family , right? I don't want to become personal that is none of my business, but a person does not stop believing, if He has before unless something happened. So either start believing now or later it is your choice. Peace and Love Mrs.:D
You are very kind to reply. I am afraid that I have never believed in what you do, and I think I am not likely to. The experiences I have had are obviously very different from the ones you have had in your interesting life (interesting judging by what you have written in other threads). I'm afraid even if I were to start believing in the supernatual it would not be the god that you worship. As far as I can tell by reading the bible he is like a murderous spoilt child, smiting people angrily when he does not get what he wants. He barely kills anyone in the NT – no wonder there is confusion!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 14 2007,03:34) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,14:31) Stu, Most of the folks on here are not Fundies. WJ probably comes the closest (no insult to WJ!). Most of us would be branded as heretics by the average Fundie. Fundamentalists are typically identified with the Protestant movement and most of us fall outside of that realm. What we are, though, are people who tend to believe in scripture as being true. I can't speak for the rest of us, but while I believe scripture to be true, I don't believe what we have today is 100% accurate. These may seem like contradictory ideals, but they are not really. Its hard to explain. I think the best way to describe it is that I believe that what was originally written was 100% accurate and that over time we have a corrupted version of scripture due to human error and bias.
The Christians you are describing — the ones who believe some parts of the Bible is fable and myth — are called liberals. But there are many who are not liberals who would not fit in the fundamentalist category.
That's very interesting. you would forgive me I hope for wondering whether you live in the US – I think it is generally accepted by those of us who don't that what we call fundamentalist is just about mainstream in America.I guess as you say there is a wide range of interpretation of scripture, and you might imagine that every one of those interpreters would say they have the right take on it.
Can they all be right? Who is to be trusted?
Stuart
Who is right? In our view, only God
. Only the egotistical and deluded believe they have the true interpretation in all (or even most!) cases. I myself like to have an open mind (some would not say so), taking the whole of the Bible to balance my beliefs, not just a passage in isolation.Of course, that is where religious faith differs from hard facts. We all feel like we have the truth (or much of it). Muslims think so, Hindus think so, etc. And even Atheists think they are right
. In the end, faith is the most personal of “truthes” we have in our lives.But we could compare it to global warming. The “facts” are supposed to be out there, yet you have different factions that believe differently. Who is right?
Kejonn One Day We will find out ” The truth will cover the earth like the sand covers the sea.” To that Day I am looking forward to with all my heart. No more tears, no more sorrow, no more pain, Thank God it will be over soon. Kejonn we all are right here because We all believe in the same Jesus Christ at least. The rest will come along soon. I wish that We would encourage each other more, rather then tare each other down. In our Hearts We all want God, don't We? I wonder lately how God looks at that sometimes when He sees His Children at it like We have. I am just as guilty as anybody, and I wish We would consider to be more Christ like. With Love Mrs.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 14 2007,18:29) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 14 2007,09:34) Besides make up your mind sis. You are trying to say that Jesus was the Father and yet you say Jesus was concieved as a divine man. So if the Father is God and Jesus was the Father then Jesus would be part God (The Father) and part man (Mary), “Godman”. Just like your son is part you and part your husband. “Human”, Right? So Jesus is part divine and part man. So he is not at all like us? Now I have a question for you.
If Jesus as you say “Was God” because he was in the Fathers loins (like your son was in your husbands loins) then what about him being the seed of David? did he exist in Davids loins also and was he also David?
Correct. I am saying that Jesus is the literal Son of God and Mary.This is percisely how Jesus is able to be the Root and the Offspring of David.
MandyOk, so you say Jesus “Existed in David and in God”, but what about Mary did he exist in her too?
Its simple. Nothing “Exist” until it is created. God forknows everything but everything didnt exist until it was created.
Why try to create such a theory except to deny his pre-existence?
If I have a thought to make a wooden cabinet then have my friends come over and say hey guys I have a cabinet I want you to see this cabinet has been with me from the beginning.
And I show them a spot on the floor where its gonna be and say “See it” there it is. They would say it dosnt exist you havnt built it yet. The wooden cabinet Does not exist untill it is built.
Neither did Yeshua exist as just a thought of God.
“The Word was with God and the Word was God”. God was not and is not a thought or a plan.
SO then just as you and your husband came together and brought forth your son who is “Human”.
Then God and Mary came together and brought forth Jesus who is “God and Man”.
Would you say that your son is less human than his dad?
Then how can Jesus be less than God since he is the only monogenes “unique” Son that was born this way.
Mandy. Either Jesus is just a man or he is something other than.
You have been saying to GB that he is more than a man.
What is he “Half God” and “Half man”?
Jesus is the “Root” and the “Offspring” of David. So if the root was just a “Thought” then the offspring must be too.
The root has to “Exist” before it can have offspring.
David did not come from Jesus who was a thought.
Sorry but this makes no sence.
Good morning, WJ,
I've been thinking about what you said, “Make up your mind, sis.” Ha! That is honestly what I am doing HERE, brother. Working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Quote Its simple. Nothing “Exist” until it is created. God forknows everything but everything didnt exist until it was created.
And yet Jesus' origins are from ancient times. He was “with” God in the beginning. It is the “with” part that we debate, as you well know. There are several explainations that scripture lends itself to (not just yours or my explainations).Quote And I show them a spot on the floor where its gonna be and say “See it” there it is. They would say it dosnt exist you havnt built it yet. The wooden cabinet Does not exist untill it is built. Our ways are not his ways, WJ. The Bible never says that *Jesus* existed before the worlds began. Because *Jesus* didn't exist until he was conceived in Mary (other than to be with God as his potential son).
SO then just as you and your husband came together and brought forth your son who is “Human”.
Then God and Mary came together and brought forth Jesus who is “God and Man”.
Would you say that your son is less human than his dad?
This comparision has never made sense to me. When you compare something, it should be “apples to apples” not “apples to oranges.” Human to human – yes there is a comparision. Human to divine – well, you have to really stretch to compare those two.Quote Then how can Jesus be less than God since he is the only monogenes “unique” Son that was born this way.
Because Jesus is also Mary's son.Quote Jesus is the “Root” and the “Offspring” of David. So if the root was just a “Thought” then the offspring must be too.
The Root is God Almighty, for he is the source of everything (including Jesus). Jesus was with God in the beginning and he was God. So, Jesus was/is also the Root by nature.Quote David did not come from Jesus who was a thought.
Prophetically, David called Jesus his “Lord” even before Jesus was born. Why? Because Jesus was/is also the Root of him, and the offspring of him.Thanks for the chat, WJ. Thanks for helping me narrow down what I believe. Have a great day – it's raining here in the Pacific Northwest (go figure).
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 16 2007,05:07) Good morning, WJ, I've been thinking about what you said, “Make up your mind, sis.” Ha! That is honestly what I am doing HERE, brother. Working out my salvation with fear and trembling.
Quote Its simple. Nothing “Exist” until it is created. God forknows everything but everything didnt exist until it was created.
And yet Jesus' origins are from ancient times. He was “with” God in the beginning. It is the “with” part that we debate, as you well know. There are several explainations that scripture lends itself to (not just yours or my explainations).Quote And I show them a spot on the floor where its gonna be and say “See it” there it is. They would say it dosnt exist you havnt built it yet. The wooden cabinet Does not exist untill it is built.
Our ways are not his ways, WJ. The Bible never says that *Jesus* existed before the worlds began. Because *Jesus* didn't exist until he was conceived in Mary (other than to be with God as his potential son).Quote SO then just as you and your husband came together and brought forth your son who is “Human”. Then God and Mary came together and brought forth Jesus who is “God and Man”.
Would you say that your son is less human than his dad?
This comparision has never made sense to me. When you compare something, it should be “apples to apples” not “apples to oranges.” Human to human – yes there is a comparision. Human to divine – well, you have to really stretch to compare those two.Quote Then how can Jesus be less than God since he is the only monogenes “unique” Son that was born this way.
Because Jesus is also Mary's son.Quote Jesus is the “Root” and the “Offspring” of David. So if the root was just a “Thought” then the offspring must be too.
The Root is God Almighty, for he is the source of everything (including Jesus). Jesus was with God in the beginning and he was God. So, Jesus was/is also the Root by nature.Quote David did not come from Jesus who was a thought.
Prophetically, David called Jesus his “Lord” even before Jesus was born. Why? Because Jesus was/is also the Root of him, and the offspring of him.Thanks for the chat, WJ. Thanks for helping me narrow down what I believe. Have a great day – it's raining here in the Pacific Northwest (go figure).
MandyYou say…
Quote
The Root is God Almighty, for he is the source of everything (including Jesus). Jesus was with God in the beginning and he was God. So, Jesus was/is also the Root by nature.Do you really believe this?
If the root was God Almighty and Jesus was with God and was God then what is the problem?
But of course you say Jesus is no longer God, and he is not just a man but something greater than man.
From this are we to believe that God changed and Jesus who was God is no longer God?
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