Conception

[Ramblinrose]

Quote

Matt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived(1080) in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Reinterpretation:
But while he thought on these things, behold, an angel of YHWH appeared to him in a dream, saying Joseph, son of David(a) do not be afraid.(b) Take to you Mary your wife, for that begotten(1080) by yourself(d) is of the Holy Spirit. (e)

(a) ONCE AGAIN the angel makes the point of showing that Joseph is from the line of David.

(b) Whilst the phrase ‘do not be afraid’ can be left unchanged as in the original verse, a full-stop can be placed after it thereby changing the meaning of the verse to Joseph not being afraid of the situation at hand – thinking that Mary had had relations with another.

 For Joseph to take his wife unto himself infers that they must have been married. To live together was the final step of betrothal therefore the marriage must have already taken place.

(d) Need to check strongs here:

1080 gennaw gennao ghen-nah’-o
from a variation of 1085; TDNT-1:665,114; v
AV-begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1, be delivered 1, misc 3; 97
1) of men who fathered children
1a) to be born
1b) to be begotten
1b1) of women giving birth to children
2) metaph.
2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
2c) of God making Christ his son
2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work

02029 hrh harah haw-raw’
a primitive root; TWOT-515; v
AV-conceive 38, woman with child 2, with child 2, again 1, bare 1, progenitors 1; 43
1) to conceive, become pregnant, bear, be with child, be conceived, progenitor
1a) (Qal) to conceive, become pregnant
1b) (Pual) to be conceived
1c) (Poel) to conceive, contrive, devise

This is the only place in the whole of the NT where 1080 is translated as ‘conceived’. A woman conceives (02029), a man begets (1080). It is translated as born in cases where the child has physically been born or that we are born of God, but it is not being used in that context here. In the above passage the Angel is reassuring Joseph that the child is his as the child has been begotten by him.

(e) The child was conceived by the ‘power of YHWH’. God ensured Mary’s fertility when having relations with Joseph for ‘the time had come’.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Where did the “by yourself ” come from?
It still makes a liar out of Mary and a rogue out of Joseph.
No so amigo.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Looking at some of the other things you have said. A Man begets[1080].Yes all the male lines are written using “gennao”[1080]as with those who are begotten of God as sons.
But there are several referring to women too.
Lk 1.13
“..your wife Elizabeth will bear [1080] you a son..”
Lk 23.29
” Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore[1080] and the breasts that never nursed..”
Gal 4.24
“..these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mt Sinai bearing[1080]children who are to be slaves..”
And Lk 1.57, Jn 16.21 speak of women giving birth [1080]while Lk 1.35 uses the word to speak of the “Holy Offspring”[1080]

And what does “of the Holy Spirit” mean to you in Matt 1.20?
You also have never addressed the question I posed about in which way is Jesus the Son of God?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,11:56)

And what does “of the Holy Spirit”  mean to you in Matt 1.20? You also have never addressed the question I posed about in which way is Jesus the Son of God?

Your first question was answered in part (e) of the above and I have answered question two in the 'Are we born with SIN' topic on page 15.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,10:55)

Hi RR, Where did the “by yourself ” come from? It still makes a liar out of Mary and a rogue out of Joseph. No so amigo.

20But while he  thought on  these things, behold , the angel  of the Lord  appeared  unto him  in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife : for that which is conceived (5685) in her is (5748) of the Holy Ghost .

1722 en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
1)in, by, with etc.

846. autov autos ow-tos’; from the particle au au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind] (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-])self, [your-]selves, she, that, their(-s), them([-selves]), there[-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare

I don't see how having relations with your husband makes a liar out of Mary or a rogue out of Joseph.

[Scripture Seeker]

Friends,

Luk 1:34  Then said Mary unto the angel, HOW SHALL THIS BE, SEEING I KNOW NOT A MAN?
Luk 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, THE HOLY GHOST SHALL COME UPON THEE, AND THE POWER OF THE HIGHEST SHALL OVERSHADOW THEE: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 1:37  FOR WITH GOD NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.

Science shows that Mary carried around the egg (ova) from Her first breath of fresh air until the Holy Spirit came upon her and the Most High overshadowed Her.

Mary contained the seed [Gen 3:15] before she was even born.

The seed is known as the egg and the word is derived from the Latin word ovum (plural ova). All the ova are created before birth. Yes all women are born with all there eggs inside them! they are not created later but they are released later. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_reproductive_system_%28human%29

This shows that Mary had the ova that would allow the only Son to be begotten by Father and be concieved by the Holy Spirit before she was even born.
Also the ovum containing the 23 chromosomes contained Her very own DNA.

What does the Catholic Church mean when it says that Mary is the Mother of God?

Joh 1:14  And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.

Luk 1:42  And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43  And whence is this to me, that THE MOTHER OF MY LORD SHOULD COME TO ME?

Mary was truly the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, Jesus the word that was made flesh, the word that was with God and was God.  She was not the Mother of Jesus essence just as my Mother is not the Mother of my soul. But from that  moment that the word was made flesh Jesus become fully human! BUT his spirit was not created like it is with us when we are conceived, instead the Sons Godship/Godhead was begotten of the Father.  

Mary is known as the Mother of Elizabeth’s Lord Luke 1:43 and as the word is truth she is the Mother of our Lord also.

1Co 8:6  Yet to us there is but ONE GOD, THE FATHER, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, and we unto him: AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, and we by him.

(ASV)  Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:
(GNB)  Jesus replied, “The most important one is this: 'Listen, Israel! The Lord our God is the only Lord.
(KJVA)  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

So friends when you here Catholics or Orthodox calling Mary the Mother of God please we don’t think Mary created God the Father or God the Holy Spirit or essence of the word that was made flesh! NO not at all! She is the human Mother of our Lord Jesus who shares the Godship with his Father. Jesus is God the Son [Heb 1:8] as known by God the Father and as no one knows the Son except the Father [Mat 11:27] we should believe the Father.

Again just as you don’t think your Mother created your soul we don’t think Mary created the Sons essence, he is uncreated [By whom all things are]. Mary is the Mother of the word that became flesh, which from that point in time when Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit was made fully man. We can not divide Jesus human body from his essence. He is even resurrected in glory in his human body and is the Alpha and the Omega.

There are many interesting scriptures that also show that Mary is the Ark of Gods New Testament especially when paralleled with the old Ark of the old law.

For those that haven’t seen these parallels in the scriptures I am more than happy to show how Gods word bestows the honor once given to the old Ark to Mary the New Ark.

Jesus was begotten by the Father and was born from the handmaid of the lord and the Holy Spirit. There was no man involved in this miracle.

So Mary is the God bearer the Mother of God with us, she is known as the “Theotokos” who is indeed a virgin.

Mat 1:23  Behold a VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
What gives?
You have presented scripture to show that the Father is God and the Son of God is Lord.

You show us that Elizabeth says Mary is the mother of our Lord Jesus, and I agree,

then you say Mary is the mother of God?

How could you spit out the gnat and swallow a camel?

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
So we are all conceived of the Holy Spirit as to our natural life? You are off the planet there.

[Ramblinrose]

SS

Why have you left out Luke 1:36 when it is the verse being discussed for Luke 1.37.

Luke 1:34  Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:36  “Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
Luke 1:37  “For with God nothing will be impossible.”

Mary is not the 'mother of God' she is the mother of 'my Lord/master' the mother of 'the annointed one of God' the mother of 'the MESSIAH'.  She was truly blessed.

A woman carries an egg (ovum). If the child is not of Joseph the child cannot be the Messiah as the child must come 'from the seed of David'.

Deuteronomy 6:4  “Hear, O Israel: The YHWH our God, YHWH is one!

Amen

[Ramblinrose]

Deuteronomy 6:4  “Hear, O Israel:  YHWH our God, YHWH is one!

Amen

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
Your answer on page 15 of the “are we born with sin?” forum confirms what I had come to believe.
You deny the only begotten Son of God.
He is but a man to you and no more a son of God than any other Jewish man.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,22:23)

Hi RR, Your answer on page 15 of the “are we born with sin?” forum confirms what I had come to believe. You deny the only begotten Son of God. He is but a man to you and no more a son of God than any other Jewish man.

He is not ‘but a man’ to me – HE IS:

the prophet like unto Moses
the seed of Abraham
the rod
the branch
the Lion of the Tribe of Judah
the seed of David
the Son of David
the Root and the Offspring of David
the Holy One of God
the mediator between God and Man
the way, the truth and the life
the Son of God
the King of Israel
the one born ‘when the fullness of time had come'
the man anointed by God (the Messiah)
the man who was YHWH’s representative on earth and spoke on his behalf
the man who lived in completed obedience to God
the man that fulfilled the prophecies of Torah
the man who died for the sins of others
the man who God raised from the dead
the man who currently stands at the side of YHWH
the man who will return to rule as King

He is ‘the greatest MAN’ that ever lived – and is still living to this day.

Praise YAH

I don't believe that 'any other Jewish man' comes close to the above.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
He is the Son of God but God is not his Father?
In what way is he the Holy One of God?
Are men Holy?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,10:25)

Hi RR, He is the Son of God but God is not his Father? In what way is he the Holy One of God? Are men Holy?

Let us see.

Quote

Mark 1:24  Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One (40)  of God. Luke 4:34  Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One (40) of God.

40. agiov hagios hag’-ee-os;
from agov hagos (an awful thing) [compare 53, 2282]; sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated):—(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Quote

2 Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy (40) men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. Revelation 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy (40) prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Yes, men are HOLY.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,

So is THE HOLY ONE of GOD greater than these others?
What is the difference between a son of God and THE Son of God?
Do you believe Christ is no greater than Moses?
Was Christ God's representative or did God speak and work through him as a vessel?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,21:57)

Hi RR, So we are all conceived of the Holy Spirit as to our natural life? You are off the planet there.

Where did I say the above Nick?

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
If you say that Jesus was the result of a natural human union, as we all are, and yet say his conception was of the Holy Ghost, then so must all of ours be too surely?

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,11:01)

Hi RR, So is THE HOLY ONE of GOD greater than these others? What is the difference between a son of God and THE Son of God? Do you believe Christ is no greater than Moses? Was Christ God's representative or did God speak and work through him as a vessel?

Your questions have become foolish.

Anyone that has been reading this thread can see that I have already answered them.

[NickHassan]

Hi RR,
That is one approach.

[Ramblinrose]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2006,11:06)

Hi RR, If you say that Jesus was the result of a natural human union, as we all are, and yet say his conception was of the Holy Ghost, then so must all of ours be too surely?

The Holy Spirit (power of YHWH) came upon Mary to ensure her fertility ’for the fullness of time had come’.  

I don’t believe he comes upon all women to ensure they conceive.

Mary’s is not the only time he has done this as the following show:

Quote

Isaac Genesis 16:1  Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar….. Genesis 17:19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him….. Genesis 21:1-3  And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.  For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.  And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac. Jacob Genesis 25:21  And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived. Joseph Genesis 29:31  And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren…. Genesis 30:1  And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.  2  And Jacob’s anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God’s stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? Genesis 30:22  And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.  23  And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:  24  And she called his name Joseph; and said, The LORD shall add to me another son. Samson Judges 13:2  And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not. 3  And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son… 24  And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. John Luke 1:7  And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years… Luke 1: 13-17  But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.  And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.  For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.  And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.  And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord… Luke 1:24  And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months…

Nothing is impossible for YHWH.

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