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Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2006,04:20) you've missed the point…..
The point that God didn't create all things through Christ. I think that is the point he is making Nick.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.So Is 1:18' (member not the scripture) says Christ is Yahweh and Yahweh creates all things through his son. So if Jesus is Yahweh, then Jesus has a son. OK, so who is the son of Jesus. Oh maybe I should go and read the DaVinci Code and find out.
Hey t8,
I asked you who Psa 102:25 referred to and you wrote Jehov@h. Which is true, it clearly is. According to the writer of Hebrews this verse was actually uttered TO the Son BY the Father (vs 6).Do you agree it was?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 17 2006,00:10) Hi,
What does “immaculate conception” mean?
It is another catholic vocab word that implies human conception is dirty and Jesus could have had no part in it being of pure and perfect nature, a new creation, God Himself, placed in the womb of Mary.
Does anyone agree this is all the truth?.
Nick,The “Immaculate Conception” is not in regard to Yahshua being immaculately conceived in Mary, it is that Mary was immaculately conceived. The following is quoted from the ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’.
Quote The Immaculation Conception Reference 490
To become the mother of the Savior, Mary “was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role.” The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as “full of grace.” In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God’s grace.Reference 491
Through the centuries the Church has become even more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
Reference 492
The “splendour of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son.” The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love.”Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 18 2006,05:52) Hey t8,
I asked you who Psa 102:25 referred to and you wrote Jehov@h. Which is true, it clearly is. According to the writer of Hebrews this verse was actually uttered TO the Son BY the Father (vs 6).Do you agree it was?
Yes that is how I read it at least.But many of us here are well aware that God used his son in creation and in redemption. God may be our saviour, but he sent his son to save us. God didn't die the son did.
All good is of Yahweh, but we also know that Yahweh works through his son, the angels, and man. But blurring God with those whom he works through doesn't sway me toward your doctrine.
I understand that God is Spirit and he is invisible. God didn't appear as a man and die. Rather God was IN Christ, just like God can be in us and just as God can mount the cherub and fly on the wings of the wind.
God is not the vessel that he indwells, just as he is not creation in which he will dwell.
Hi RR,
Mary is treated as another heavenly deity to be worshiped and prayed to, and is an example of worshiping the created and not the Creator spoken of in Romans 1. And the fruit of such activities is the sexual depravity the harlot has become infamous for as light has been shone into her dark corridors of power.Thanks you for not equivicating….I thought you would.
Okay then, since you affirm that Psa 102:25 was indeed written in exclusive reference to YHWH (i.e. the subject in the verse was YHWH), AND that this was an in fact an utterence spoken BY the Father TO the Son, then you cannot logically deny that Jesus is YHWH, at least not without hopelessly contradicting yourself and exposing the bias and inconsistency in your theology.
Going to bed….goodnight.
Hi is 1.18,
Psalm 102 is one of thse OT scriptures in which the Son is hidden and only revealed by the NT.
Any OT scholar would not believe surely that there was any part of this psalm that refers to the Son.
v 19
“For He looked down from His Holy height; from heaven the Lord gazed upon the earth”clearly is related to the Father and unless the writer had told us no one could have found that v 24-26 relate to the Son.
But that does not give us carte blanche to assume other parts of the OT, or even this psalm, do so too. That would be presumption.
I looked it up and 'O my God' is translated as 'el' not Yahweh. Just pointing that out, I am not saying that isn't talking about Yahweh though.
I would like to move this discussion to an already existing one that is appropriate for this subject.
Psalm 102
24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.I have reposted this in a discussion called “Who is yhwh”.
Quote At this stage, all I can say is that I do not know the answer and can only pray that God makes it abundantly clear to me even as he has so far led me. I pray the same for you and others who may be in a similar position. I am glad we could engage in the discussion.
Hi Cubes,
Yes, it has been enjoyable. I shall leave you to ponder the many questions this topic has raised.
Shalom
Nick
You continuously ask questions but fail to answer when you are asked one.
Both WhatIsTrue and I each asked you questions earlier in this topic that you have yet to answer.Quote From Me:
The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?From WhatIsTrue:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not?Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.
Your reply to WIT:
Quote Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,22:43)
Nick wrote:
Quote
Hi WIT,
Did any question his sonship to Joseph while he lived?Yes.
Now, can you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Here it is for the fifth or sixth time:
Quote
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all?Hi WIT,
I am not a source of answers but only a fellow student of truth.
Neither do I believe much value is to be gained by the ticking of the boxes or paint by numbers approach to scripture.
So I continue to search and hopefully together we may find eternal answers.You say ‘you are not a source of answers’ yet we have responded to the questions you have asked of us. Surely you could reciprocate.
I await your answers for the above questions.
Quote (t8 @ July 17 2006,06:41) I have read some posts here, mainly from Cubes in which RR is quoted. Can I just confirm that RR is saying that Joseph is the natural father of Christ, in the sense that Joesph knew his wife (or wife to be) and the result was Jesus. Then somehow Joseph forgot about the union. Did I read this correctly?
t8You have asked a question that has come about from a discussion of an article that you have not read.
But, to answer part of your question 'Do I believe Yahshua is the son of Joseph, from the Tribe of Judah of the House of David'?
Yes I do.
Is. Try this: Do you have your father in you? Yes! Are you greater than your father? Simple. I explained this once before “it's called honor your Father”
Hope this helps,
Kenrch
Quote (Ramblinrose @ July 17 2006,12:38) Nick
You continuously ask questions but fail to answer when you are asked one.
Both WhatIsTrue and I each asked you questions earlier in this topic that you have yet to answer.Quote From Me:
The OT prophesies repeatedly state that the Messiah will come from the 'seed of David'. How do you deal with this?From WhatIsTrue:
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Was Messiah supposed to be the literal son of David or not?Please reply to the above ensuring that you quote scripture so that we can see how you have arrived at the answer you give.
Your reply to WIT:
Quote Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 27 2006,22:43)
Nick wrote:
Quote
Hi WIT,
Did any question his sonship to Joseph while he lived?Yes.
Now, can you do me the courtesy of answering my question? Here it is for the fifth or sixth time:
Quote
Did the prophets get it right or wrong? Is Messiah the “fruit of David's body”, or is Messiah not related to David at all?Hi WIT,
I am not a source of answers but only a fellow student of truth.
Neither do I believe much value is to be gained by the ticking of the boxes or paint by numbers approach to scripture.
So I continue to search and hopefully together we may find eternal answers.You say ‘you are not a source of answers’ yet we have responded to the questions you have asked of us. Surely you could reciprocate.
I await your answers for the above questions.
Hi RR and WIT,
Just as soon as you will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God we can move on to how the God, who can make children of Abraham from “these stones”, brought His son through the line of David.Quote Hi RR and WIT,
Just as soon as you will acknowledge that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of God we can move on to how the God, who can make children of Abraham from “these stones”, brought His son through the line of David.Nick
The question you have asked has already been answered by myself and WIT previously in this topic in a discussion with you. I grow weary of your games and have tired of running around in circles.
How about just answering the questions put to you.
Hi RR,
Is Jesus the Son of God, only begotten of God in the beginning?
or
Is Jesus Christ the Physical son of God?or
Is Jesus Christ only a man and a son of God by title?
or
Is Jesus Christ only a man and a son of God by obedience?If you only accept either of the last two options then he is not truly a son of God and neither are we.
And any discussion about just a man and his human origins does not have much relevance here.
Everybody,
Good discussion. I think RR and WIT have made quality, surprisingly biblical arguments on a topic I assumed to be gnostic nonsense. I guess that shows you the ability of man-made doctrines to suck people in ala the Trinity way of thinking. There have been strong arguments on the opposing side as well. I still undecided.If possible I would like some clarification from RR and/or WIT. The Word became flesh correct? At what point did this occur. Mary + Joseph = 100% human – Mind, body, spirit. Did the Father send the Word down to fill the vessel created by Mary & Josesph? If so, at what point? I believe, contrary to the Trinity, that Jesus had His own will and spirit – the Word. How was all this “implanted” into the human body of Yashua.
Thanks for the great discussion. Keep it up…and remain calm
Quote (Ramblinrose @ July 18 2006,08:08) Quote (t8 @ July 17 2006,06:41) I have read some posts here, mainly from Cubes in which RR is quoted. Can I just confirm that RR is saying that Joseph is the natural father of Christ, in the sense that Joesph knew his wife (or wife to be) and the result was Jesus. Then somehow Joseph forgot about the union. Did I read this correctly?
t8You have asked a question that has come about from a discussion of an article that you have not read.
But, to answer part of your question 'Do I believe Yahshua is the son of Joseph, from the Tribe of Judah of the House of David'?
Yes I do.
Hi RR,Could I ask for clarification on this one particular point:
That you believe that Joseph is the physical father of Jesus in that Joseph knew his wife and the outcome was Jesus.If you don't know the answer then that is fine. No one here has all the answers. But if that is what you believe and possibly teach, then it would be useful for me to know that, when making replies in this discussion.
Thx
Hi,
Rom 1.1f
” Paul, a bond servant of Christ jesus, called as an apostle, set apart fro the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy scriptures concerning
HIS SON, WHO WAS BORN OF THE SEED OF DAVID ACCORDING TO THE FLESH,
who was
DECLARED WITH POWER TO BE THE SON OF GOD by the resurrection from the dead ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS,
Jesus Christ our Lord”Truly Son of God in two ways.
Quote (Cubes @ July 17 2006,02:19) Regarding the Luke 3 genealogy that ends with Heli/Eli being the supposed son of Joseph.Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli,
That came out backwards. I meant to say, Joseph, son of Heli
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