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Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 07 2012,23:47) Hi T8,
But wakeup said that God wanted man to have the knowledge of good and evil, but would make them die if they got it from the only available source.My question was why. God either wanted them to have that knowledge, or he did not. You didn't answer that.
TIm
According to scripture God did not want us to at that time.
He warned them that it would lead to death.We can speculate that God might have wanted us to have it when we were more developed spiritually, so that we would be more like him. As it stands, this knowledge is killing us because we are too spiritually immature to handle such knowledge correctly. We always make a hash of things and end up destroying stuff that is beneficial.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 08 2012,18:18) God gave them curiosity then punished the first humans for expressing that “god-given gift”. That god is a sadist.
Stuart
Look at it another way.They were in a state of bliss and lacked nothing.
They loved God.
But genuine love demands free will, otherwise it is just part of a program and because there is no choice to not love, then is it real or just a reaction to being happy.The Tree of Life represented the choice of eternal life, while the other represented the knowledge of good and evil which would make us like God in that we would form our own destiny, but it would ultimately lead to the opposite of life due to not being connected to the life giver.
If God did not allow us to go our own way, then you could rightly be cynical about everything because there was no choice and thus we would be no better than a race of bots.
Those that choose God in this life will partake of the tree of life. That is one of the rewards. And those who don't choose God will not partake of life. This is free will in action. And that will is determined clearly by what we say in combination with how we live our lives.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 10 2012,01:10) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 09 2012,17:45) Hi Princess I can't find your post which I meant to reply to, I think that you asked if the real god could please stand up? “How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?” (Jesus speaking)
“And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
“Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Of course people will try to confuse the matter from it's original simplicity into something of the opposite, but there is no need for this!
You used to be a believer?
“I will seek those who were lost, and bring again those who were driven away, and will bind up those who were broken, and will strengthen those who were sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.”
2Beesee.I like that.
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup I think that those verses do go together.
Good one.Quote God does not ask for blood but men did , T, You cannot accept jesus christ as your lord and savior without accepting the blood sacrifice. Truth.
Quote humans always like to look not guilty and blame all there screw ups on God ,sins the beginning ,so untill you can see the truth and deal with it ,you will never come to change youself for the better, So who is to blame for the death of Jesus?
I gues I have to do it all again,but a little slower this time.
1. lucifer was created a cherub so perfect and full of wisdom by God.
That he became puffed up IN HIS HEART.He wanted to be as God,he wanted to sit upon the mout of the congregation,and be above the stars of God.(stars=angels).He wanted to be as the most high.(isiah 14. ez.28.).2. He was having this great ideas in his heart,and he started to gossip amongst the angels in heaven.1/3 were listening to him.This is evil in heaven ,but can not manifest itself.
3. But despite all the talk,there is nothing lucifer could do in heaven,for they are all spirit creatures. They can not be dominated or forced.lucifer is impotent amongst the angels.
But that evil is building up IN HIS HEART.4. God can not let that go on forever; so God has a plan to let that evil come OUT and manifest it self.
So he created creatures in the material form;flesh,and gave them a simple straight forward law.Dont touch that one tree.5. Now; lucifer can operate, and do what is in his heart,and he did; he appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent,because there were only two humans in the garden and Adam and Eve knew this.
6. lucifer contradicted Gods law,and Eve was taken by it,and she touched the fruit and ate it,and gave it to adam also.They have broken that simple law.
7. Now satan sinned first, and then Adam and Eve sinned against God. and now lucifer became the rebeller(satan).the father of sin.
8. Humankind has been under the influence of satan since then.
And lived in sin against God all the way,and became worse and worse, so that even the angels went down and defile them selves with the flesh and went into the women; and created the giants.(modifying the human race,and also the animals.(gen6).9. God had to destroy his creation because of all the corruption,and God caused a flood upon the earth,only 8 uncontaminated souls were saved in the ark.
10. After the flood,men started to multiply on the earth,but they knew not God,so God introduced himself, starting with Abraham,and from his son jacob, 12 sons were born. And God started a nation for himself;the 12 tribes of israel;and he introduced himself through Moses with great miracles and wonders.
11. And God taught them through Moses how to live under Gods laws and traditions and sacrifices; and satan was allways there to tempt,and to corrupt.
12. Then came more prophets send by God, to instruct them.
To keep them straight,but they killed them.Back to satan: he is given by God to let all his ideas come true ,but for a short time only,this would be his last great empire controling the planet, and he as God sit in the temple of God,saying that he is God and all to worship him.
13.God has allowed him to have 7 empires(7heads of the beast).
The last great empire would be the 8th,but is a modified 7th.
This 8th will be the N.W.O.coming, and this is satans last empire and will be here at the coming,to be destroyed.God has shown humankind the way to come back to him,for they have gone astray from God. Its now up to the individual to make that choice.
Many still would not know the lord because of circumstances,but God also has given every person a conscience.And they will be judged according to their works.
In the second resurrection.wakeup.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 10 2012,15:59) Quote (princess @ Nov. 10 2012,02:43) My seeking god is what brought me where I am today. I will not deny anything of the spiritual this is just right down foolish, however I can and will deny the blood. The teaching never set right with me from the beginning. Too many others came and passed with the same demand for blood.
Princess fair enough……. Jesus did say though that those who followed Him may have to die too, and many have……..Quote So you have made the choice to worship one god and venerate his son? Correct me if I am wrong. I actually have difficulty understanding the word 'worship'.
I 'listen to, pray to, and try to obey' both the Lord and the Father.
I believe that God is love.
I believe that true belief is different, I guess you could say.
I see God Almighty as the only power and the only truth and I see Jesus as I would visualize a man, though He has power as the Son of God and He is with us with the Father in Spirit.Quote I was lost when practicing Christianity. You could say I was more of a Hebrew then a Gentile. To this day I keep Sabbath and the dietary guidelines, never have or will take part in communion and still read proverbs, like the book. That's good that you have faith still.
What made you feel lost, apart from the blood side?
2besee,I was not addressing martyrdom, it was gods. But you do bring up a good point, Jesus like his father before him, expected others to be sacrificed also.
My conclusion was correct then, you also have a touch of trinity belief by what I can see.
I would not call taking Sabbath and the dietary laws faith, you don't practice something for so long without walking away without some form of knowledge. One day off without any work spending monies ect…is healthly for the human body and family.
I praciced the dietary laws for so long I felt no reason to change them.My favorite and what I try to live by is be innocent as a dove, but wiser then a serpent.
I quess lost could be compared to confused, and that would be due to Paul. To this day I would rather seen his head on a platter then John's but I did not write the story.
Quote (2besee @ Nov. 10 2012,16:09) I will also add that I believe that God's power can heal us, and the power descends onto the heart.
Difference between you and I. You call upon spirits to enter into you for whatever the notion is at the moment.Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 10 2012,17:56) Princess years ago like 45 ago,i always have been the out side worker and the wife took care of the inside house ,and i made good money,but the wife ask me one day if she can have this and that or this and that ,and I told her you are my other half and so all of what i make his yours to do has you wich ,she never ask me those questions again we just would happily go to the stores,wen needed, we now just about 49 years married, I love her more to day than yesterday we both wait for God ,and his son
T,I never thought you to be anything other then a good man. Your story does not surprise me in the least.
Most assured your wife is just as great as you.I also understand the underlying meaning of the story. Which makes you such the great man you are.
Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2012,18:30) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 10 2012,16:09) I will also add that I believe that God's power can heal us, and the power descends onto the heart.
Is that also how this god killed Uzzah? By descending power onto his heart?Stuart
Stuart,As I think about it more, you must be a great helper to someone, supporter of sort and feel that Uzzah may or could be you. A great supporter doing the act only out of love only in the end to be struck down for your good works.
Just a hunch.Uzzah story would most likely be the teaching don't rely on yourself to make it work rely on God, he has a plan for your life and when you try to do it yourself it will only cause death. Most assured if you were the author of this story the outcome would have been different.
Or the teaching would be humanity cannot help god, god can only help humanity.
It is the best I have for you.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 10 2012,23:13) I gues I have to do it all again,but a little slower this time. 1. lucifer was created a cherub so perfect and full of wisdom by God.
That he became puffed up IN HIS HEART.He wanted to be as God,he wanted to sit upon the mout of the congregation,and be above the stars of God.(stars=angels).He wanted to be as the most high.(isiah 14. ez.28.).2. He was having this great ideas in his heart,and he started to gossip amongst the angels in heaven.1/3 were listening to him.This is evil in heaven ,but can not manifest itself.
3. But despite all the talk,there is nothing lucifer could do in heaven,for they are all spirit creatures. They can not be dominated or forced.lucifer is impotent amongst the angels.
But that evil is building up IN HIS HEART.4. God can not let that go on forever; so God has a plan to let that evil come OUT and manifest it self.
So he created creatures in the material form;flesh,and gave them a simple straight forward law.Dont touch that one tree.5. Now; lucifer can operate, and do what is in his heart,and he did; he appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent,because there were only two humans in the garden and Adam and Eve knew this.
6. lucifer contradicted Gods law,and Eve was taken by it,and she touched the fruit and ate it,and gave it to adam also.They have broken that simple law.
7. Now satan sinned first, and then Adam and Eve sinned against God. and now lucifer became the rebeller(satan).the father of sin.
8. Humankind has been under the influence of satan since then.
And lived in sin against God all the way,and became worse and worse, so that even the angels went down and defile them selves with the flesh and went into the women; and created the giants.(modifying the human race,and also the animals.(gen6).9. God had to destroy his creation because of all the corruption,and God caused a flood upon the earth,only 8 uncontaminated souls were saved in the ark.
10. After the flood,men started to multiply on the earth,but they knew not God,so God introduced himself, starting with Abraham,and from his son jacob, 12 sons were born. And God started a nation for himself;the 12 tribes of israel;and he introduced himself through Moses with great miracles and wonders.
11. And God taught them through Moses how to live under Gods laws and traditions and sacrifices; and satan was allways there to tempt,and to corrupt.
12. Then came more prophets send by God, to instruct them.
To keep them straight,but they killed them.Back to satan: he is given by God to let all his ideas come true ,but for a short time only,this would be his last great empire controling the planet, and he as God sit in the temple of God,saying that he is God and all to worship him.
13.God has allowed him to have 7 empires(7heads of the beast).
The last great empire would be the 8th,but is a modified 7th.
This 8th will be the N.W.O.coming, and this is satans last empire and will be here at the coming,to be destroyed.God has shown humankind the way to come back to him,for they have gone astray from God. Its now up to the individual to make that choice.
Many still would not know the lord because of circumstances,but God also has given every person a conscience.And they will be judged according to their works.
In the second resurrection.wakeup.
You have concocted quite a story there wakeup.Quote 1. lucifer was created a cherub so perfect and full of wisdom by God.
That he became puffed up IN HIS HEART.He wanted to be as God,he wanted to sit upon the mout of the congregation,and be above the stars of God.(stars=angels).He wanted to be as the most high.(isiah 14. ez.28.).And God didn't know all of this was going to happen. I guess he messed up when he created Lucifer.
Quote But despite all the talk,there is nothing lucifer could do in heaven,for they are all spirit creatures. They can not be dominated or forced.lucifer is impotent amongst the angels.
But that evil is building up IN HIS HEART.God can not let that go on forever; so God has a plan to let that evil come OUT and manifest it self.
So he created creatures in the material form;flesh,and gave them a simple straight forward law.Dont touch that one tree.So God created humans just so he could let the evil of Lucifer come out. How very nice of God. And this was all part of God's grand plan.
Wait until I quit laughing and catch my breath and I will read the rest of your fairy tale.
Tim
Quote Now; lucifer can operate, and do what is in his heart,and he did; he appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent,because there were only two humans in the garden and Adam and Eve knew this. Since this is all fact according to wakeup, maybe you can show me one verse in the bible that says that the serpent was Satan. Since you can't this is all extra biblical junk that you have heard from others.
Tim
Continuing saga,
Quote Humankind has been under the influence of satan since then.
And lived in sin against God all the way,and became worse and worse, so that even the angels went down and defile them selves with the flesh and went into the women; and created the giants.(modifying the human race,and also the animals.(gen6).Were these the same 33% of the angels that were cast down with Satan, or some of the good angels that stayed with God?
Quote God had to destroy his creation because of all the corruption,and God caused a flood upon the earth,only 8 uncontaminated souls were saved in the ark. Whew! God messed up when he created Lucifer and he messed up when he created human kind, can't seem to get it right can he?
Every time God messes up he throws out, or destroys his creation. You would think that he could just make it right.Tim
Quote (princess @ Nov. 10 2012,23:55) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 10 2012,18:30) Quote (2besee @ Nov. 10 2012,16:09) I will also add that I believe that God's power can heal us, and the power descends onto the heart.
Is that also how this god killed Uzzah? By descending power onto his heart?Stuart
Stuart,As I think about it more, you must be a great helper to someone, supporter of sort and feel that Uzzah may or could be you. A great supporter doing the act only out of love only in the end to be struck down for your good works.
Just a hunch.Uzzah story would most likely be the teaching don't rely on yourself to make it work rely on God, he has a plan for your life and when you try to do it yourself it will only cause death. Most assured if you were the author of this story the outcome would have been different.
Or the teaching would be humanity cannot help god, god can only help humanity.
It is the best I have for you.
Thank you for your kind attempts.I have a plan for my life, as we all do, and although it doesn't revolve around fantasy stories of Imaginary Beings, were this all to be true then part of my purpose would be to bring this monstrous sadist god to justice.
Of course I would insist on a fair trial for it, something it never afforded Uzzah or any of the other 24,000,000 fellow humans that people claim it has slaughtered.
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 10 2012,21:51) Quote (Stu @ Nov. 08 2012,18:18) God gave them curiosity then punished the first humans for expressing that “god-given gift”. That god is a sadist.
Stuart
Look at it another way.They were in a state of bliss and lacked nothing.
They loved God.
But genuine love demands free will, otherwise it is just part of a program and because there is no choice to not love, then is it real or just a reaction to being happy.
I'm not clear here. Are you claiming that compulsory love on pain of eternal fire / judgment is a free choice? Isn't it free in the same way that people were free to oppose Stalin? You would call a totalitarian state free?Quote The Tree of Life represented the choice of eternal life, while the other represented the knowledge of good and evil which would make us like God in that we would form our own destiny, but it would ultimately lead to the opposite of life due to not being connected to the life giver. If God did not allow us to go our own way, then you could rightly be cynical about everything because there was no choice and thus we would be no better than a race of bots.
Those that choose God in this life will partake of the tree of life. That is one of the rewards. And those who don't choose God will not partake of life. This is free will in action. And that will is determined clearly by what we say in combination with how we live our lives.
All those fantasy, imagined rewards dreamed up by ancient Jews are fine if you want to believe such rot, but you have never addressed the question of compulsory love on pain of eternal punishment, as described in Matthew 13:41-42, Mark 9:43-48, Revelation 14:10-11, and Revelation 20:10.Note that it is only after the arrival of Jesus that we get the invention of eternal punishment.
Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 11 2012,00:14) Quote Now; lucifer can operate, and do what is in his heart,and he did; he appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent,because there were only two humans in the garden and Adam and Eve knew this. Since this is all fact according to wakeup, maybe you can show me one verse in the bible that says that the serpent was Satan. Since you can't this is all extra biblical junk that you have heard from others.
Tim
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
wakeup.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 11 2012,00:16) Continuing saga, Quote Humankind has been under the influence of satan since then.
And lived in sin against God all the way,and became worse and worse, so that even the angels went down and defile them selves with the flesh and went into the women; and created the giants.(modifying the human race,and also the animals.(gen6).Were these the same 33% of the angels that were cast down with Satan, or some of the good angels that stayed with God?
Quote God had to destroy his creation because of all the corruption,and God caused a flood upon the earth,only 8 uncontaminated souls were saved in the ark. Whew! God messed up when he created Lucifer and he messed up when he created human kind, can't seem to get it right can he?
Every time God messes up he throws out, or destroys his creation. You would think that he could just make it right.Tim
Timothy .The war in heaven happened just after the resurrection,and those angels were cast down into the earth.(rev12:7-9).
The angels that left their estate and went down and defiled themselves with womenbefore the flood are 200 chief angels; and they are still locked up today.(rev 9:2. 14).
No,God did not messed up,all has to happen, for evil must exceed to the maximum,for all of us to learn.
This happened with sodom and gomorah also,and they had to be destroyed. The same thing is happening today,and the genetic modifying also.
Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Ecclesiastes 1:11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 11 2012,01:55) Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 11 2012,00:14) Quote Now; lucifer can operate, and do what is in his heart,and he did; he appeared to Eve in the form of a serpent,because there were only two humans in the garden and Adam and Eve knew this. Since this is all fact according to wakeup, maybe you can show me one verse in the bible that says that the serpent was Satan. Since you can't this is all extra biblical junk that you have heard from others.
Tim
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
wakeup.
Nowhere in Gen. did the bible say that the serpent was satan and nowhere in Isaiah did the bible say that Lucifer was a serpent. See, like I said, this is all extra biblical junk that you are just making up as you go.Tim
Quote (Wakeup @ Nov. 11 2012,02:36) Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 11 2012,00:16) Continuing saga, Quote Humankind has been under the influence of satan since then.
And lived in sin against God all the way,and became worse and worse, so that even the angels went down and defile them selves with the flesh and went into the women; and created the giants.(modifying the human race,and also the animals.(gen6).Were these the same 33% of the angels that were cast down with Satan, or some of the good angels that stayed with God?
Quote God had to destroy his creation because of all the corruption,and God caused a flood upon the earth,only 8 uncontaminated souls were saved in the ark. Whew! God messed up when he created Lucifer and he messed up when he created human kind, can't seem to get it right can he?
Every time God messes up he throws out, or destroys his creation. You would think that he could just make it right.Tim
Timothy .The war in heaven happened just after the resurrection,and those angels were cast down into the earth.(rev12:7-9).
The angels that left their estate and went down and defiled themselves with womenbefore the flood are 200 chief angels; and they are still locked up today.(rev 9:2. 14).
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
If Satan, the serpent , was cast down after the resurrection,
then how was he there in Eden?This must be another one of those contradictions that are not a contradiction?
Or were you wrong about the serpent being Satan?
TimQuote Nowhere in Gen. did the bible say that the serpent was satan and nowhere in Isaiah did the bible say that Lucifer was a serpent. See, like I said, this is all extra biblical junk that you are just making up as you go.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, THAT OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
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