Christadelpians

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Christadelpians offer scripture study courses so we should understand where they are coming from.
As I understand it their doctrines are quite sound on most matters.

However they deny the existence of Satan.
They do not major on the need to be born again
They also seem to have no understanding of the living power of the Holy Spirit.

Who can add?

[david]

As far as I can tell Nick, they also don't believe that God endlessly cruelly torments the wicked for all time in fire because of the sins of a person while on earth.
Sadly, I believe Sammo won't be around for a couple months to defend his belief that God doesn't torture people.

I agree. Their beliefs “are quite sound on most matters.” And they know far more about the Bible than most who claim to be Christian.

For a long time while speaking with Sammo, I wanted to ask him why they don't believe in Satan, as a person. But I felt it would be taken as a way to divert the conversation we were having.
Anyway, I don't think Sammo will be here for a while to look at these issues.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
Are you still struggling with the lake of fire?

[david]

Are you still struggling with your one parable and fighting the rest of the Bible?

I am simply adding something else that they don't believe Nick. They don't believe that a God who “is love” tortures people for all time because of what they do or don't do while on earth for a few years.

You did list things they don't believe and then said: “Who can add,” didn't you? Well, they don't believe that torture equals love.

david.

[NickHassan]

Uh oh.
David it is not in anyone's interest to design a God according to our human sensitivities.
God is love. He is the definition of Love. He has warned us all -that is love.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The CARM biblical apologetics site gives a summary of the beliefs. Their disbelief in Satan is the most bizarre.

[david]

Quote

David it is not in anyone's interest to design a God according to our human sensitivities.

Are not we made in God's image? Is not God love? Any love we show is a mere reflection of His love.
If a human parent who loves a child wouldn't put her child in a fire when he sinned, would we expect so from God, and to do so for all time?

It is loving on God's part to remove wickedness and those who don't want to serve him. This shows love for those who do want to serve him. But keeping those people alive for all time while torturing them shows love neither for the those deserving of life or those deserving of death.

JOB 34:10-12
“Therefore, YOU men of heart, listen to me. Far be it from the [true] God to act wickedly, And the Almighty to act unjustly! For [according to] the way earthling man acts he will reward him, And according to the path of man he will cause it to come upon him. Yes, for a fact, God himself does not act wickedly, And the Almighty himself does not pervert judgment.”

Far be it for God to act unjustly. He is “a lover of Justice.” Eye for eye. Where is the justice in forever torment for a few years of sins?

I believe the Christadelphians have it right when they say that God is love.

[NickHassan]

Hi david,
It is a pity they are blind to the deceiver.
They have taken away from scripture.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
David has told us how much the Jehovahs witnesses have suffered persecution for their beliefs.
 
The situation is far from unique. Catholic history is replete with martyrs for their beliefs just as their opponents at times have also suffered evilly at their hands.

The Christadelpians too have a history book full of the stories of those who suffered and died.

Sadly none of these are proven to be the Way because of these facts.

[david]

You are absolutely right Nick. Persecution in itself does not prove that you belong to the true Way of Christianity.

But not being persecuted for your beliefs and actions would prove that you are not really living with godly devotion:

“Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”
2 Timothy 3:12 (New American Standard Bible)

And this makes sense, doesn’t it? Jesus wasn’t well liked. Those who truly are following Jesus wouldn’t be well liked.

Quote

The situation is far from unique. Catholic history is replete with martyrs for their beliefs

Interestingly, the Greek word for “witness” is martyr, from which comes the English word “martyr,” meaning “one who bears witness by his death.”
And there have been many martyrs as you say, beginning with Abel (Heb 11:4) who is one of the “great cloud of witnesses” (martýrōon, “martyrs”) that Heb 12:1 speaks of.

But this thread is about Christadelphians. May I ask why they have been persecuted, and in what way?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Perhaps Sammo can help but I understand many died in the USA 100 odd years ago?

[Sammo]

Hi everyone

Actually, yes, I do have a quick look at the board every couple of weeks, and naturally this topic caught my eye!

——————–

Yes, we do believe that Christians need to be born again in baptism, that's entirely Biblical.

——————–

Yes, we do believe that God works in our lives through the Holy Spirit – we believe that God does everything through his Spirit. But we do draw a distinction with having Holy Spirit gifts, like apostles in the book of Acts for instance. We don't go in for speaking in tongues, healing gifts etc.

——————–

No, we don't believe that people who aren't saved are tortured in hell. Immortality is a conditional gift, not universally inevitable – the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23), and dead means dead.

——————–

No, we don't believe that Satan is a fallen angel – we believe that it's a Hebrew word that means “adversary”, that is sometimes used literally and sometimes used figuratively. Is that bizarre? From my own experience talking to non-Christians, they say that makes a lot of sense!

There's no way I'm up for another debate on the devil – somewhere round here there's a thread on fallen angels, and we'd only be recovering exactly the same ground that was covered in that thread. If anyone is interested in researching what Christadelphians believe about Satan, the best place they could look is here: http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?showforum=18. I won't pretend it's all easy reading, but it's absolutely compelling.

God be with you

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
And the martyrs?

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

There were a lot of conscientious objectors that were imprisoned in World War 1 and 2, and some even lost their lives (not in New Zealand). At the moment it's not safe being a Christadelphian in some countries like Iran, but that's certainly not unique to us.

Martyrdom is more of a historic thing I guess – the books that you mentioned are online:

The Protesters
Brethren in Christ

They're about people that have shared our beliefs that have been persecuted in days gone by.

[Sammo]

(I haven't heard about the people in USA 100 years ago, but who knows, maybe you're right.)

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
I knew a Christadelpian lady 10 years or so ago and she lent me an old book to read about it.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2006,00:49)

Hi Sammo, I knew a Christadelpian lady 10 years or so ago and she lent me an old book to read about it.

Hi,
The book was called “The Protesters” and it was written by a Christadephian about preChristadelphian groups such as Brethren, who had died because they refused military service.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
So if Christadelphians teach against scripture that there is no Satan they show themselves to be opposed to the Spirit of God.

[Sammo]

Satan is not a name, it's a noun that means adversary. http://www.massey.ac.nz/~stalexan/Files/Satan_not_PN.pdf That means that there is no fallen angel called Satan. So far as I can see, that's the end of the story.

Besides, angels can't sin, and thus can't fall anyway. (If anyone disagree with that, there are unanswered posts of mine on the Satan thread.)

But it's slightly misleading to say that we believe that “there is no Satan”. More accurate would be to say that we believe that in the OT, satan simply means an/the adversary; in the NT it is also used in the sense of personifying sin (by no means unique or unusual in the NT).

[david]

I'm still confused. What of the wicked spirit forces in heavenly places?

EPHESIANS 6:11-12
“Put on the complete suit of armor from God that YOU may be able to stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the governments, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”

Here, it seems that the devil (sicknesses?) are associated with “world rulers of this darkness,” “wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.”

[Author]

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