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Mike,
Im sensing da ja vue…….
My spidy sense are tinglying
Im sensing a forever cycle,
im halluciating im seeing a mirror in a mirror in a mirror!!Quote I agree with the scriptures he quoted….I didn't even look at the link. I think people who worship Jesus worship an image…..something God was clear to point out that we shouldn't do. He said we never saw Him have a form, so don't worship ANYTHING with a form. Jesus had a form. I also agree that people who worship Jesus worship the creation, not the Creator.
Im not sure what your talking about. God said we shouldnt worship any graven image, or any other God but himself….
Is that what you refer too?
I think not, we all have to bow our knees one day.
John died when he was in front of the Son of Man.
(something like that in revelation ch1.)Quote It doesn't say witness OF anything. He gives himself 3 titles here, the Amen, the Faithful and True witness, and the beginning of the creation of God. Jesus himself says he is the beginning of the creation by God, which matches perfectly with “firstborn of all creation” and “brought forth as the first of [God's] works” and “his origins are from ancient times”.
If you were going to say namesRevelation 3:14 Greek Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
Καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Λαοδικείᾳ ἐκκλησίας γράψον· Τάδε λέγει ὁ ἀμήν, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστὸς καὶ ὁ ἀληθινός, ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ
KJV with Strong's
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write These things saith the Amen the faithful and true. witness the beginning of the creation of God——————————————————————————–
Greek Transliteration Strong's Morphology English
Καὶ kai 2532 CONJ and
τῷ tō 3588 T-DSM to
ἀγγέλῳ angelō 32 N-DSM angel
τῆς tēs 3588 T-GSF of
ἐν en 1722 PREP in
Λαοδικείᾳ laodikeia 2993 N-DSF Laodicea
ἐκκλησίας ekklēsias 1577 N-GSF church
γράψον grapson 1125 V-AAM-2S write
Τάδε tade 3592 D-APN this
λέγει legei 3004 V-PAI-3S says
ὁ o 3588 T-NSM
ἀμήν amēn 281 HEB Amen
ὁ o 3588 T-NSM
μάρτυς martus 3144 N-NSM witness
ὁ o 3588 T-NSM
πιστὸς pistos 4103 A-NSM faithful
καὶ kai 2532 CONJ and
ὁ o 3588 T-NSM the
ἀληθινός alēthinos 228 A-NSM true.
ἡ ē 3588 T-NSF of
ἀρχὴ archē 746 N-NSF beginning
τῆς tēs 3588 T-GSF of
κτίσεως ktiseōs 2937 N-GSF creation
τοῦ tou 3588 T-GSM the
θεοῦ theou 2316 N-GSM Godhttp://biblos.com/revelation/3-14.htm
Tell me if your Greek says other wise.
But This is where IT says taht he is “Faithful Witness” and “true” OF something.
Im not sure what does your greek say?
I put strong concordance there as well check it out.like i said, from ancient times? which verse are you refering to again? remember i told you that its refers to the hebrew “olam”?
Quote I have proven it through scripture. “Firstborn of every creature”, “beginning of the creation of God”, “origins from ancient times”, “brought forth as the first of God's works”. If you don't want to believe, then that's up to you. If you want to change the meanings of what is very plainly stated to fit your own imagination, then I feel sorry for you.
Hey dont get me confused for your own talent, your the best at it.
Quote Jesus holds first place in many groups.”Created things” is just one of the groups he is a member of and holds first place in
Actually in all groups in reference with 1:18, which is the conclusion or the point of why he stated all of that.Quote Preeminence mean the highest of the high, so even if Jesus IS God, he is NOT the Father, right? Therefore only one of your Gods can be preeminent over all creation. So if your “Jesus God” is preeminent, then your Father God is not……it's that simple. Preeminent doesn't mean “one of the highest” or “equally high with another”…..it means that one – and only one – is the highest.
I Think you still dont get it. I mean you spend so much time in making several different Gods that you just dont get i believe in One God.
Scripture says that Jesus is preeminent over everything, what else is there left to say? I never cliamed equality i never said any of that other stuff. im not going to argue with Paul, he said that Jesus is preeminent on 1:18, what else is there to say?Quote But you admit it IS written, right? So either God and Paul were wrong or trying to confuse us…….OR….”firstborn of all creation” DOESN'T mean “preeminent over all creation”. Hmmmmm…….which one makes more logical sense Dennison?
its ok to be Confused thats why God can clear up all the confusion dont worry. 1:18 makes it clear that was Pauls intention the whole time. so DUH it means preeminent or the FIRST in all things. what was 1:18 last point, that he is the beginning, (he is ALPHA) he is the head of the body, he is the firstborn of the dead, 1:15, firstborn of every creature, so that he maybe PREEMINENT!Quote But how do you reconcile that with God saying
He ALONE created the heavens and the earth and everything in them? This was Jehovah who said this……will you now follow Kathi's lead and assert that Jesus is “Jehovah the Son” to make this scripture align with your doctrine?
naaaa,
I believe what Jehovah said, because The Word was always part of Jehovah, and so is his son.
So what else do you want to assert?
are you stating that JEsus never created anything?
i mean how did he create anyways?
did he get his hands dirty and just created out of nothign?
or did God wisper into his ear, and told him what to do?
or How did it happen?
I mean no where in the old testament does it say that the Son created, yet those crazy guys in the NT says that he did…. weird no?Quote If you think any of your scriptures deny Jesus having a beginning, list them one by one with your explanation of how that particular scripture denies it.
I dont have to, im the Neg. i gave interpretation so that they cant be used to support the doctrine that Christ was created.Quote Every time the NT writers say something like, “Grace and peace to you from the Father AND GOD of Jesus Christ” there is an implication that God is first and Jesus is second. But I will look for a scripture that actually says it later. How can you think that Jesus isn't second to the One he says is “our God AND his God….the One he still calls “my God” and is a servant to? What part of any of this shouts “Equality”?
Yet the Last thing John wrote in the bible was to the Lord Jesus…. what happen to Father and the Holy spirit in this revelation?
Does Jack say that in hebrews my God tells Jesus his God or seomthing like that?Quote Although your post was huge, I thought I hit everything. You know what I believe by now (I'm the one who believes scripture, remember?) 
, so if you think there's a good point you made in your post – or any post for that matter – that I overlooked, hit me with it again.
I thought my point about 1:18 and the context of Collossians one was overlooked a bit.
you did touch it, but i think we shoudl focus more on that one since its important. I give a brief interpration on it.Much love mike, thanks for the time
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50) Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.
I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.mike
agreed.
sorry about that.
Why would you be sorry? We all learn here. Unfortunately, most of us seem to stubborn to admit we were most likely mistaken and change our views.
Hi Mike and SF,I don't mean to butt in here but, if we are all here to learn (as you suggest),
why would Psalm 89:19-29 be any different than Psalm 22:1-31?Psalm 22:1-31 most would agree that Psalm 22:1-31 is
speaking of David directly and at the same time of Jesus Prophetically?Again why would Psalm 89:19-29 be any different?
If that were the case would that not end your dispute?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,09:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50) Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.
I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.mike
agreed.
sorry about that.
Why would you be sorry? We all learn here. Unfortunately, most of us seem to stubborn to admit we were most likely mistaken and change our views.
I have no problem with correction,
Actually i just had a bad experience with this group of people,
Gosh for breifly speaking my mind i got shot down…
Didnt expect it.It made me cherish heaven.net a bit more,
even though we bicker and swing at eachother here and there, there is that love i feel that lol when it all comes down to it, i know you love me.
even though if i could beat you with a bat i would. (just kidding)
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 14 2010,09:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,15:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50) Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.
I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.mike
agreed.
sorry about that.
Why would you be sorry? We all learn here. Unfortunately, most of us seem to stubborn to admit we were most likely mistaken and change our views.
Hi Mike and SF,I don't mean to butt in here but, if we are all here to learn (as you suggest),
why would Psalm 89:19-29 be any different than Psalm 22:1-31?Psalm 22:1-31 most would agree that Psalm 22:1-31 is
speaking of David directly and at the same time of Jesus Prophetically?Again why would Psalm 89:19-29 be any different?
If that were the case would that not end your dispute?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Its an open thread,
you can post whatever you want,Even Nonsense
Psalms is debatable,
I also think it meant David more than Jesus.Everything refers back to Christ in some sense or form.
Even the tabernacle (i think) gives that same story here and there.But still in context i believe it still refers back to David more than anything.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 13 2010,23:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,09:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50) Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.
I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.mike
agreed.
sorry about that.
Why would you be sorry? We all learn here. Unfortunately, most of us seem to stubborn to admit we were most likely mistaken and change our views.
I have no problem with correction,
Actually i just had a bad experience with this group of people,
Gosh for breifly speaking my mind i got shot down…
Didnt expect it.It made me cherish heaven.net a bit more,
even though we bicker and swing at eachother here and there, there is that love i feel that lol when it all comes down to it, i know you love me.
even though if i could beat you with a bat i would. (just kidding)
Dennison,
I like your style…good job!Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,09:59) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 13 2010,23:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,09:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Sep. 14 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,07:50) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,11:50) Psalms 89:27 is about David, who is a type of Christ and there are some similarities but nothing exact.
I also don't think 89:27 is about Christ, for he is not a King OF the earth. He didn't come FROM the earth and he is King over all heaven and earth, so I think this is about David only.mike
agreed.
sorry about that.
Why would you be sorry? We all learn here. Unfortunately, most of us seem to stubborn to admit we were most likely mistaken and change our views.
I have no problem with correction,
Actually i just had a bad experience with this group of people,
Gosh for breifly speaking my mind i got shot down…
Didnt expect it.It made me cherish heaven.net a bit more,
even though we bicker and swing at eachother here and there, there is that love i feel that lol when it all comes down to it, i know you love me.
even though if i could beat you with a bat i would. (just kidding)
Dennison,
I like your style…good job!
Thank you Lu,
and for you patience to finally understand what you mean.
The other debate we had long ago,
I know why i didnt understand
because i mentally blocked myself from understanding.Than recently i finally understood that we agreed the whole time and that i should look more into what you stated before.
I called Rokkamen and told him “DUDE Lu and and I agree the whole time, im such an idioit.” And he was like “DUH your idioit, i knew that already,” and i was like “DUDE thats awesome!” and he was like “DUDE i know!”
well it didnt actually happen that way… but something like that lol.
but hey, You know Paul and Peter had that Love but i want to kill ya kindof thing.
You know Paul wanted to kill peter at first, and than they became best friends, and had a little arguement about the whole gentile and uncircumsized, than Paul was calling peter a Hypocrite, and than few punches were brought out here and there, but in the end they loved eachother!
Sometimes we just have to sharpen iron with iron.
But in the end its because we love! and thats what Counts!
Thanks for your note Dennison (you idiot-just kidding).
We all come to the realization that we have been idiots about something and most likely many things
If we were perfect we wouldn't NEED Him!I wish I could have heard that conversation with RokkaMan, LOL!
I'm glad that you know you are loved here…i love you!
Iron sharpens iron and often what we get to sharpen is our patience here
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,15:59) Dennison,
I like your style…good job!
I'll bet she especially likes the part where you would beat me with a baseball bat if you got the chance!Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2010,16:36) Thanks for your note Dennison (you idiot-just kidding).
We all come to the realization that we have been idiots about something and most likely many things
If we were perfect we wouldn't NEED Him!I wish I could have heard that conversation with RokkaMan, LOL!
I'm glad that you know you are loved here…i love you!
Iron sharpens iron and often what we get to sharpen is our patience here
KathyIron sharpens iron and often what we get to sharpen is our patience here
PATIENCE IS WHAT WE ALL SHOULD HAVE AND IN QUANTITY TO WAITH FOR CHRIST RETURN.
so in the mean time iron again iron ,will do
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 14 2010,19:09) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 14 2010,15:59) Dennison,
I like your style…good job!
I'll bet she especially likes the part where you would beat me with a baseball bat if you got the chance!
I love you too , Mike!SF:
Quote Im not sure what your talking about. God said we shouldnt worship any graven image, or any other God but himself…. Deut 4:15-19 NIV
15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.A. We have never seen God take on ANY form whatsoever, so to worship ANYTHING that has a form of ANY kind is forbidden.
B. That includes images of men. How many people have “Jesus shrines” with paintings and statues and the like depicting Jesus being crucified that they bow down to and worship? Jesus has a form that we have seen……..we are not to worship ANYTHING or ANYONE that has a form we have seen.
C. Jesus was “apportioned” by his God and our God to all the nations. We are not to worship anything our God has apportioned to all the nations.
SF:
Quote I think not, we all have to bow our knees one day.
And the man in 2 Sam 1:2 bowed down before King David. Was he worshipping David as if David was God? No, and neither will the bowing down to show reverrence to our Lord Jesus be the same as the worship we are to give ONLY to our God.SF:
Quote KJV with Strong's
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write These things saith the Amen the faithful and true. witness the beginning of the creation of God
I'm not sure where you found that. Both BibleGateway and NETBible show the KJV this way:Revelation 3:14 (King James Version)
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
And your translation of the Greek words was mistaken. The word you list as “of” before “beginning” is the word “ho”. It means “the” or “this” or “that”, etc. Where are Ed and Gene when I need them? They will tell you that the Koine Greek doesn't have a separate word that means “of”. They show their “of” by using the genetive form of certain words. So look again at your post where you broke down the Greek into English. Look at the words that have the Strong #3588. They all mean “the”, but some of them are genetive, so in English, we add the word “of” in front of it so it really says “of the”. Here, I'll show you from the last part you posted:
πιστὸς pistos 4103 A-NSM faithful…………..FAITHFUL
καὶ kai 2532 CONJ and…………………………AND
ὁ o 3588 T-NSM the……………………………..THE
ἀληθινός alēthinos 228 A-NSM true………..TRUE
ἡ ē 3588 T-NSF of………………………………..THE
ἀρχὴ archē 746 N-NSF beginning …………..BEGINNING
τῆς tēs 3588 T-GSF of………………………….OF THE (NOTICE THE BOLDED AND UNDERLINED “G”)
κτίσεως ktiseōs 2937 N-GSF creation…….OF CREATION
τοῦ tou 3588 T-GSM the………………………OF THE
θεοῦ theou 2316 N-GSM God………………..OF GODDo you see the “GSF” AND “GSM” behind the Strong #'s? That “G” shows that the word is genetive and we add the “of” in English. So the Greek word is actually “the”, but because it's in the genetive form, we add the “of” in front of it, making it “of the”. You'll notice the “the” before the word “beginning” is NOT in the genetive form, so we do NOT add an “of” in front of it. That one just means “the”. So it basically says, “…..witness faithful and true. THE beginning OF THE creation……”
peace and love,
mikeSF:
Quote like i said, from ancient times? which verse are you refering to again? remember i told you that its refers to the hebrew “olam”?
The verse is Micah 5:2….just like it says where I posted it on page one of this thread sonny. And one of the words IS “owlam”. Here's what NETBible says:Micah 5:2 NET
As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.There is a footnote after “distant past”, which says:
“distant past”…….Heb “from the past, from the days of antiquity.” Elsewhere both phrases refer to the early periods in the history of the world or of the nation of Israel. For מִקֶּדֶם (miqqedem, “from the past”) see Neh 12:46; Pss 74:12; 77:11; Isa 45:21; 46:10. For מִימֵי עוֹלָם (mimey ’olam, “from the days of antiquity”) see Isa 63:9, 11; Amos 9:11; Mic 7:14; Mal 3:4.
I don't see what point you are arguing. Matthew says this prophecy IS about Jesus, and this prophecy says Jesus had a beginning. It says his “origins” (which the LXX authors translate as “arche”, which means “beginning”) are “from the past, from days of antiquity”. This verse says that Jesus DID have a beginning, and it took place in “ancient times”.
Do you understand this passage, or do we need to discuss it some more?
peace and love,
mikeLook Dennison,
If you want a serious discussion, then let's do it. But if you are not even going to try to refute my rebuttals, then what's the point? Please don't waste my time by claiming some things, and then ignoring my scriptural rebuttals of those claims.
You said that those of us who believe Jesus was created are the ones who have to prove it. I responded:
Quote I have proven it through scripture. “Firstborn of every creature”, “beginning of the creation of God”, “origins from ancient times”, “brought forth as the first of God's works”. If you don't want to believe, then that's up to you. If you want to change the meanings of what is very plainly stated to fit your own imagination, then I feel sorry for you.
You didn't address any of those scriptures, but instead made a flippant, although humorous comment:Quote Hey dont get me confused for your own talent, your the best at it.
You didn't address all the work I did to show you that “firstborn” means “the one who was born first” UNLESS something else is said or implied. You didn't tell me who the REAL firstborn of all creation was that Jesus “inherited” that title from. You've ignored the fact that “preeminence” isn't something that can be shared equally by both Father and Son, so if one is preeminent, the other is not. You ignored the fact that the Greek words don't even say “preeminent”, so it is a moot point anyway. But then you say today:Quote im not going to argue with Paul, he said that Jesus is preeminent on 1:18, what else is there to say?
But Paul DIDN'T say “preeminent” at all. That is your main point in all of this apparently – that Jesus is “preeminent” – yet the Bible NEVER says that.I DO want to continue this discussion and get through both yours and my points, but not by spending 3 hours doing a 1000 word post just to have most of it ignored by you.
I made two posts prior to this one today…..one about Rev 3:14 and one about Micah 5:2. I'll wait for your responses to them before moving on.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2010,10:36) Thanks for your note Dennison (you idiot-just kidding).
We all come to the realization that we have been idiots about something and most likely many things
If we were perfect we wouldn't NEED Him!I wish I could have heard that conversation with RokkaMan, LOL!
I'm glad that you know you are loved here…i love you!
Iron sharpens iron and often what we get to sharpen is our patience here
Please,
LU, you are getting desperate, Your tactics……
Why am I your no 1 enemy here? PM me if you want, it's been going on too long LU and it's not christian at all.
And LU, pray about it first, many things are said in anger, the Lord holds us accountable for every word we say, I wish to make peace, as it should be.
Shimmer,
What are you talking about? You aren't my enemy. I don't have a clue where you got that…really! What did I say in anger?Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 15 2010,14:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 15 2010,10:36) Thanks for your note Dennison (you idiot-just kidding).
We all come to the realization that we have been idiots about something and most likely many things
If we were perfect we wouldn't NEED Him!I wish I could have heard that conversation with RokkaMan, LOL!
I'm glad that you know you are loved here…i love you!
Iron sharpens iron and often what we get to sharpen is our patience here
Please,
LU, you are getting desperate, Your tactics……
Why am I your no 1 enemy here? PM me if you want, it's been going on too long LU and it's not christian at all.
Mike, i will respond tonight.Shimmer: what are you talking about?
Sorry, I took this over from another thread and clicked on quote, only because it was the last thing I read, LU, I will pm you later, this needs to be worked out, for real this time,
Hi LightenUp,
I would prefer that we move on in peace, so I will say God bless you, and I hope we have calmed the storm so to speak
We all have storms to calm and Jesus has the power to do so, as He did….take care,My apologies SimplyForgiven,
Shimmer ……….You are right Jesus was (NOT) created He was BORN by Mary on earth, and He is the (FIRST)(BORN) of all the creation to become a son of GOD. He is also the (ONLY) One (so far) to be raised from the dead and given eternal life from the Human race. Jesus (only existed) in the Plan and Will of GOD from the Foundations of the Earth , Jesus did not create anything , GOD alone and BY HIMSELF created all thing that exist. He gives (HIS) GLORY to (NO) MAN and that Includes JESUS. Jesus' position and glory was (foreordained) by GOD, and Jesus full well knew his position in the creation of Man and that he was destined to become the first BORN person to enter the Kingdom of GOD and Given eternal LIFE from among the HUMAN RACE> He is our (EXACT) Example in (EVER) way.
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
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