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Hi All,
In the “Emmanuel” thread, Charles put together quite an extensive list of comparitive scriptures that supposedly prove that Jesus is God Almighty.
I thought we could go through his list, ONE POINT AT A TIME, and see if these scripture really do prove that Jesus is God.
I cannot stress the ONE POINT AT A TIME enough. I alone will be the one to move on to the next point………….AFTER it becomes clear to me that we've exhaustively considered and discussed the previous point.
PLEASE do not jump ahead of the discussion. If you've said your piece on one point, and have nothing more to offer on that point, then just wait patiently until I post the next point in the order Charles originally listed them.
I want everybody to contribute here, but in an orderly, ONE POINT AT A TIME manner.
Here is Charles' post from the other thread:
If the scriptures testify of Jesus, then all hereunder is a proof that Jesus is God! No??
Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21
Who is omniscient (all knowing)? 1 John 3:20 Colossians 2:2-3
Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? Proverbs 15:3 2 Corinthians 2:14
Who is Lord of Sabbath? Genesis 2:3 Matthew 12:8
Who is the great “I am?” Exodus 3:14 John 8:58
Who is the only creator? Isaiah 44:24 John 1:3
Who is the only savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21 Acts 4:12
Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14 2 Corinthians 5:10 John 5:22
Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Ezekiel 34:17 Matthew 25:31-33
Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Matthew 23:34
Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 John 10:17-18
Who is “coming in glory?” Isaiah 40:5 Matthew 24:30
Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Isaiah 9:6
Who is the “first and last?” Isaiah 44:6 Revelation 1:17
Who is Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32 1 Corinthians 10:4
Who is Stone of stumbling? Isaiah 8:13-15 1 Peter 2:8
“One crying in the wilderness” came to prepare a way for whom? Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:3
Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 Micah 5:2
Who is the fountain of living waters? Jeremiah 17:13 John 4:10-14
Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 John 6:40
Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10 Matthew 16:27
Who has all authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Matthew 28:18
Who gives power and authority to man? Psalm 68:35 Luke 9:1
Who forgives sin? 2 Chronicles 7:14 Matthew 9:6
Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16 John 16:7
Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5 Philippians 2:9
Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Revelation 5:12-13
Who is the good Shepherd? Genesis 48:15 John 10:14
Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? Ezekiel 34:11 Matthew 15:24
Who is “Lord of Lords?” Deuteronomy 10:17 Revelation 17:14
To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23 Philippians 2:10
Who is the righteous branch of David? Jeremiah 23:5-6 Jeremiah 33:15
Who alone is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Acts 3:14
Whose blood cleanses us? Acts 20:28 1 John 1:7
The world was created for whom? Proverbs 16:4 Colossians 1:16
Who is above all? Nehemiah 9:6 Romans 9:5
Who is forever the same? Psalms 102:24-27 Hebrews 1:8-12
Who is our light? Psalm 27:1 John 8:12
Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 John 14:6
Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20 2 Thessalonians 1:7
Who gives us rest? Exodus 33:14 Matthew 11:28
Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 John 3:36
We are the bride of whom? Isaiah 54:5 2 Corinthians 11:2
Who tests the heart and mind? Jeremiah 17:10 Revelation 2:23Peace and love in Jesus Christ
Charles
I'll begin with his first point in my next post.
mike
Charles: Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21
1 Chronicles 29:11
Yours, O Jehovah, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Jehovah, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all.This scripture clearly claims that Jehovah, the Father of Jesus, is “head over all”. This scripture is matched in the NT by 1 Corinthians 11:3, which tells us that God is head, even over Christ.
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Well, this scripture truly says that Jesus is enabled to bring everything under his control by “the power”. First, we have to figure out whose power this really is.
Exodus 4:21
Jehovah said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.Here we see that Moses has power to perform wonders and miracles. But is it really Moses' power?
Micah 5:4
He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God.This scripture is definitely about Jesus, according to Matthew 2:4-6. And this scripture tells us by whose power Jesus will act. Like Moses, Jesus' power comes FROM his God.
But the bottom line is this: Yes, Jesus has been GIVEN much power and authority by the One he calls “my God”. Does the fact that God has GIVEN power TO Jesus mean that Jesus IS the God who gave him the power in the first place?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 09 2011,11:15) Charles: Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21 1 Chronicles 29:11
Yours, O Jehovah, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Jehovah, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all.This scripture clearly claims that Jehovah, the Father of Jesus, is “head over all”. This scripture is matched in the NT by 1 Corinthians 11:3, which tells us that God is head, even over Christ.
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.Well, this scripture truly says that Jesus is enabled to bring everything under his control by “the power”. First, we have to figure out whose power this really is.
Exodus 4:21
Jehovah said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.Here we see that Moses has power to perform wonders and miracles. But is it really Moses' power?
Micah 5:4
He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God.This scripture is definitely about Jesus, according to Matthew 2:4-6. And this scripture tells us by whose power Jesus will act. Like Moses, Jesus' power comes FROM his God.
But the bottom line is this: Yes, Jesus has been GIVEN much power and authority by the One he calls “my God”. Does the fact that God has GIVEN power TO Jesus mean that Jesus IS the God who gave him the power in the first place?
mike
Hi Mike,WE must be clear about vital things :
We must use only KJV OK??
I HAVE EVERY RESPECT IN ALL THE REST,BUT KJV one of the oldest and I prefer whenever there is LORD remain LORD and whenever ther’s GOD remains GOD not make use of JEHOVAH the way translators feel like to please their own passion.
Charles
Quote Hi Mike, WE must be clear about vital things :
We must use only KJV OK??
I HAVE EVERY RESPECT IN ALL THE REST,BUT KJV one of the oldest and I prefer whenever there is LORD remain LORD and whenever ther’s GOD remains GOD not make use of JEHOVAH the way translators feel like to please their own passion.
this I do not understand,so the LXX or Net bible or NIV 1984 are not be used ?
what about the Greek or the Hebrew versions ?
and one more thing Charles all your quoting s please could you put the question WHY in front and answer it for me,??
thank you
Pierre
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 13 2011,09:36) We must use only KJV OK?? I HAVE EVERY RESPECT IN ALL THE REST,BUT KJV one of the oldest and I prefer whenever there is LORD remain LORD and whenever ther’s GOD remains GOD not make use of JEHOVAH the way translators feel like to please their own passion.
Hi Charles,Many of the points I will be making depend upon interpretations of the scriptures other than the KJV's. If the Hebrew word is YHWH, then it refers to the PERSONAL Name that the God of Israel gave to Moses as a remembrance of Him for generation to generation. (Ex 3:15) I do not agree with the practice of most English translations of substituting God's PERSONAL Name with the GENERIC word “LORD” ……….for there are many gods and many lords, but only ONE YHWH.
Nor will I agree to bind myself to one ancient translation that had limited Hebrew and Greek mss from which to translate. Since the KJV was originally translated, we have discovered much older and less tainted mss. That's why you'll notice many changes between the original KJV and the NKJV. And even more differences between the KJV and more modern translations.
Besides, I rarely use the KJV because of the language used in it. I do not speak like a 17th century Englishman in my everyday life, and therefore don't use a translation that makes me think I'm reading Shakespeare.
You are free to use any translation you wish. But know that when you see “LORD” in all caps in the KJV, it is a generic word that they substituted for God's personal Name, YHWH.
More often than not, I don't rely on any particular English translation at all. I check the original Hebrew, the original Greek, and the LXX……….and then take into account many different English translations.
I'm after the truth of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures – not the truth of one particular English translation of those scriptures.
Charles, do you have a particular problem with “Jehovah”? Would you prefer I use “Yahweh” or “YHWH”? I will do that for you. I will even use “the LORD”, up until we get to a point where it becomes a detriment to the meaning conveyed by the original writers of the scriptures.
peace,
mikeQuote (carmel @ Sep. 14 2011,02:36) I HAVE EVERY RESPECT IN ALL THE REST,BUT KJV one of the oldest and I prefer whenever there is LORD remain LORD and whenever ther’s GOD remains GOD not make use of JEHOVAH the way translators feel like to please their own passion.
One of the oldest based on newer manuscripts.
The Dead Sea Scrolls are older and modern translations use them among others.Also, the KJV includes verses that are not scripture.
Is there a KJV thread anywhere that we could continue with if you want to address this?
I know Ed J has a KJV thread somewhere. But I don't mind this KJV discussion here as long as no one jumps to the next of Charles points before we're satisfied that the first one either does or doesn't claim that Jesus is God Almighty.
I started a KJV thread here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3969Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 16 2011,12:48) Charles? Will you stand and defend your “Proof Texts”?
Mike,Patience please,
Regarding the use of the Bible!
My intentions are that we should have a smooth thread.
There are quite a bit to discuss, and I felt that it would be more appropriate in this thread to choose one particular version in order to eliminate the hustle of checking which bible is being used.
If there is a particular point to define on another version, that particular piece of scripture should have and indication which version it is, and its purpose for using it.
You decide which version we use, but I feel that we use always the same one through the whole thread.
I would also suggest to keep a Jesus Christ brotherhood spirit, after all it is God’s glory we shouldn’t do this for our personal passion, and pride, which has nothing to do with God. All our posts must be for the love of Jesus Christ.As my first comment Mike, you are not in anyway contradicting me, for the simple reason that I agree that , 1 Chronicles 29:11 is a reference to God Almighty, this doesn’t mean that it is not also a reference to the Son. SINCE MY BELIEFE IS GOD THE FATHER IS ALSO GOD THE SON
THEY ARE ONE
John 14:10……..Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:
Therefore the Father dwells in the Son, and dwelled in the Son from Genesis 1:3, when our creation was commenced.
My purpose is to proof that the Father and the Son is the same one God, and wherever, there is a reference to God the Father is equivalently also to the Son.
John 17:22 ……………..that they may be one, even AS WE ARE ONE.
John 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The Pharisees were not stupid people like us regarding the Jewish God Almighty in those days. These people were immaculately aware with every detail in scriptures. Therefore the Son of God is God , in the same context as the Son of man is man.
Humans today are capable of being two persons in one. The image of God
Why is it that impossible to believe that God also could be two persons in one with the power of the Holy Spirit
I must leave now sorry
Charles
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
My intentions are that we should have a smooth thread.
Agreed. I like one question/point/scripture at a time.Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
I felt that it would be more appropriate in this thread to choose one particular version in order to eliminate the hustle of checking which bible is being used.
But that's part of the fun, Charles! For me, it is a blast to view the different ways translators have rendered the same scripture. I enjoy looking into what the original Greek and Hebrew words mean, studying the possible definitions of those words, and then deciding for myself what meaning was intended by the writer of the scripture.But let me give you an example of why we can't just use one Bible – John 1:3. Many translations say all things were created BY the Word. But the Greek word is “dia”, which has “through” as its first and most popular definition. And there is a BIG difference between all things being created BY Jesus and all things being created BY God THROUGH Jesus.
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
You decide which version we use
Okay……………how about the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT?Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
I would also suggest to keep a Jesus Christ brotherhood spirit, after all it is God’s glory we shouldn’t do this for our personal passion, and pride, which has nothing to do with God. All our posts must be for the love of Jesus Christ.
Agreed.Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
As my first comment Mike, you are not in anyway contradicting me, for the simple reason that I agree that , 1 Chronicles 29:11 is a reference to God Almighty, this doesn’t mean that it is not also a reference to the Son. SINCE MY BELIEFE IS GOD THE FATHER IS ALSO GOD THE SONTHEY ARE ONE
And that's what you are going to try to scripturally prove, right? All I'm saying is that the first set of scriptures on your list doesn't do it for you. Because all they say is that God has great power and Jesus has great power. That in no way proves that Jesus IS God, right? Especially when you figure in the scriptures that say God GAVE whatever power Jesus has TO him.Do you agree that just because two beings have great power, it doesn't prove those two beings are the same being? If you agree to this, we can move on to your second set of scriptures.
Or is there more you want to say about YOUR FIRST set of scriptures?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 18 2011,13:58) Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
My intentions are that we should have a smooth thread.
Agreed. I like one question/point/scripture at a time.Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
I felt that it would be more appropriate in this thread to choose one particular version in order to eliminate the hustle of checking which bible is being used.
But that's part of the fun, Charles! For me, it is a blast to view the different ways translators have rendered the same scripture. I enjoy looking into what the original Greek and Hebrew words mean, studying the possible definitions of those words, and then deciding for myself what meaning was intended by the writer of the scripture.But let me give you an example of why we can't just use one Bible – John 1:3. Many translations say all things were created BY the Word. But the Greek word is “dia”, which has “through” as its first and most popular definition. And there is a BIG difference between all things being created BY Jesus and all things being created BY God THROUGH Jesus.
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
You decide which version we use
Okay……………how about the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT?Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
I would also suggest to keep a Jesus Christ brotherhood spirit, after all it is God’s glory we shouldn’t do this for our personal passion, and pride, which has nothing to do with God. All our posts must be for the love of Jesus Christ.
Agreed.Quote (carmel @ Sep. 16 2011,00:31)
As my first comment Mike, you are not in anyway contradicting me, for the simple reason that I agree that , 1 Chronicles 29:11 is a reference to God Almighty, this doesn’t mean that it is not also a reference to the Son. SINCE MY BELIEFE IS GOD THE FATHER IS ALSO GOD THE SONTHEY ARE ONE
And that's what you are going to try to scripturally prove, right? All I'm saying is that the first set of scriptures on your list doesn't do it for you. Because all they say is that God has great power and Jesus has great power. That in no way proves that Jesus IS God, right? Especially when you figure in the scriptures that say God GAVE whatever power Jesus has TO him.Do you agree that just because two beings have great power, it doesn't prove those two beings are the same being? If you agree to this, we can move on to your second set of scriptures.
Or is there more you want to say about YOUR FIRST set of scriptures?
peace,
mike
Mike,Quote But that's part of the fun, Charles! For me, it is a blast to view the different ways translators have rendered the same scripture. I enjoy looking into what the original Greek and Hebrew words mean, studying the possible definitions of those words, and then deciding for myself what meaning was intended by the writer of the scripture. Okay……………how about the Jehovah's Witnesses' NWT?
Go ahead it's OK. I will use KJV otherwise I state which one is.
Quote But let me give you an example of why we can't just use one Bible – John 1:3. Many translations say all things were created BY the Word. But the Greek word is “dia”, which has “through” as its first and most popular definition. And there is a BIG difference between all things being created BY Jesus and all things being created BY God THROUGH Jesus. All I did now I used the interlinear for the WORD, and pasted all of it.
WORD 3056 LOGOS
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Original Word: λόγος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.3056 lógos (from 3004 /légō, “speaking to a conclusion”) – a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos (“word”) is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.
[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, “communication-speech”). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning “reasoning expressed by words.”]
Word Origin
from legó
Definition
a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
NASB Word Usage
account (7), account* (1), accounting (2), accounts (2), answer (1), appearance (1), complaint (1), exhortation* (1), have to do (1), instruction (1), length* (1), matter (4), matters (1), message (10), news (3), preaching (1), question (2), reason (2), reasonable (1), remark (1), report (1), said (1), say (1), saying (4), sayings (1), speaker (1), speech (10), statement (18), story (1), talk (1), teaching (2), thing (2), things (1), utterance (2), what he says (1), what* (1), word (179), words (61).NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.orga word, the Word
From lego; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) — account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon
, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.see GREEK lego
So according to the above definitions, the origin of ‘WORD’ IN THE CONTEXT OF JOHN is from Lego ,IT SAYS ALSO SEE GREEK ‘LEGO’
Now here is the Greek equivalent.
legó: to say
Original Word: λέγω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: legó
Phonetic Spelling: (leg'-o)
Short Definition: I say, speak
Definition: (denoting speech in progress), (a) I say, speak; I mean, mention, tell, (b) I call, name, especially in the pass., © I tell, command.3004 légō (originally, “lay down to sleep,” used later of “laying an argument to rest,” i.e. bringing a message to closure; see Curtius, Thayer) – properly, to say (speak), moving to a conclusion (bringing it to closure, “laying it to rest”).
Word Origin
a prim. verb
Definition
to say
NASB Word Usage
addressing (1), agree* (1), ask (1), asked (3), asking (4), bring charges (1), call (8), called (34), calling (1), calls (3), claimed (1), claiming (2), command (3), designated (1), follows (1), give (1), gives (1), greeted* (1), made (1), mean (2), means (3), meant (1), mention (1), named (3), ordered (2), quote (1), referred (1), remarking (1), said (1086), say (364), saying (440), says (102), shouting (1), so-called (3), speak (22), speaking (17), speaks (6), spoke (18), spoken (26), stated (1), stating (2), talking (5), tell (71), telling (18), thing spoken (1), things spoken (1), thought (1), told (35), using (1).NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.orgput forth, say, speak, utter.
A primary verb; properly, to “lay” forth, i.e. (figuratively) relate (in words (usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas epo and phemi generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while rheo is properly to break silence merely, and laleo means an extended or random harangue)); by implication, to mean — ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say(-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter
When we look at both definitions we realize that John used the Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine originated
from the Greek definition Part of Speech: Verb of the word “lego”I personally believe that John used this system, for the simple reason that from that very instant that God pronounces His words, THE EMBODIMENT OF HIS SON Jesus as the word of God He is both efficient as a noun, and also as a verb since He obeys the Father and accomplishes it all WITHOUT HESITATION.
I can't see your point of “DIA”
Now for me, it doesn’t make a difference if it is by the Father through the Son, or by the Son, since I consider that both the Father and the Son are one.
If we take what you stated, which I also believe it is created by the Father THROUGH the Son, it still God the Father created through the God Son because it still God, all it did it had defined How.
First the Father created ALL THE SPIRITUAL world through His Son within Him, as He was in His fullness, then He created our material world when the Father was within His Son. Genesis 1:3 John 1:2Now my comments:
Quote Because all they say is that God has great power and Jesus has great power. That in no way proves that Jesus IS God, right? Especially when you figure in the scriptures that say God GAVE whatever power Jesus has TO him. Please you must quote my scriptures.
Now read this:
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
So here it says that all what the Father has belong to Jesus, how come??
Therefore after all the Father is in His fullness through Jesus possessions as well not on His own.
Therefore TWO in one GOD!!! with the power of the Holy Spirit
John 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Now what is equal with the Father means ??
Doesn't mean that if the Father is God the Son also is God.
These words were stated by the Pharisees,and as I said these were meticulously involved in the scriptures.
John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
IS in the bosom of the Father.
Now bosom 2859 kólpos – properly, the upper part of the chest where a garment naturally folded to form a “pocket” – called the “bosom,” the position synonymous with intimacy (union).
Since Jesus was on earth as a human being, how John stated that Jesus is intimately united with the Father. If not as God in the Father
From 1 Chronicles 29:11 I will concentrate only in one particular world of exaltation which is Glory, since all are in the same context, and to me it is sufficient to proof my point that The Father and the Son is One God Almighty.
John 17 :1
………….Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee;
So in order for the Father to be glorified, the Father must glorify the Son.
Where is the difference between these two??? So the Glory belong EQUALLYto both!!
17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU ( not us) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Therefore God, and Jesus Christ. life eternal, Two in one, two to become one on the last day. The perfect harmony between the Father and the Son with the power of the Holy Spirit.
So knowing the Son is EQUAL as knowing the Father, therefore Jesus existed eternally with the Father, and the Father emanated His Son to become man, while creating our world in order to be like us, except in sin. Genesis 1:3, John 1:2
17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it;
So Jesus glorified the Father on earth. from Genesis 1:3 since all in Him, all through Him, and all for Him.
So the glory which it is mentioned in 1 Chronicles 29:11 belong to both God and Jesus.
If not, the only person who was glorifying the Father on earth was the Son, therefore Glorification belongs to Jesus since He HAS THE POWER TO GLORIFY THE FATHER through His work on earth, through obedience.
It is in the same context ,when the Father glorified the Son when He resurrected Him ,the Glory therefore belong to Both, or else it belongs to the Father since He had the power to glorify the Son.
So we could conclude that when one glorifies the other, it is either that they are both glorified, or the glory belong to either to the one who is glorifying the other, or to the one who receives the glory from the other.
SO DEFINITELY BOTH ALWAYS GLORIFY EACH OTHER , THEREFORE BOTH ARE EQUALLY GOD.
17:5 and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was.
along with thyself,
Therefore both, together are glorified not just one of them
So divinely they are inseparable. ONE GOD.
To conclude:
17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine;
John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew
it unto you.All what the Father has is mine, So the Father is God and the Son is God
All what is mine is yours, So when Jesus become spiritual flesh being on resurrection , also the Father become in spiritual flesh being through the power of the Holy Spirit, because the Father is always in heaven.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Hi Mike,
Remember Francis' posts?
Anything look familiar here?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgCharles
read this ;1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
1Co 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.then read this ;John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
now why you think they are Christ ?
Pierre
Quote (Ed J @ Sep. 18 2011,09:16) Hi Mike, Remember Francis' posts?
Anything look familiar here?God bless
Ed J
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 18 2011,08:26)
I can't see your point of “DIA”……..I also believe it is created by the Father THROUGH the Son……….
Hi Charles,“Dia” is the Greek word that's sometimes translated as “by”, and other times as “through”. I can see that won't be an issue between us, as it seems we can both live with “BY the Father, THROUGH the Son”.
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 18 2011,08:26)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Because all they say is that God has great power and Jesus has great power. That in no way proves that Jesus IS God, right? Especially when you figure in the scriptures that say God GAVE whatever power Jesus has TO him.
Please you must quote my scriptures.
We will get to every scripture in the Bible if you want to – but ONE AT A TIME, please. Your first point was:Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21
I have showed you that Phil 3 only mentions that Jesus has power. Having power does not make one God Almighty, right? So the first point you made using Phil 3 is pretty much shot down. But apparently you think there are other scriptures that say Jesus has ALL the power that God has, and we need to discuss them ONE AT A TIME.
You quoted: John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Charles, this is a good scripture from your point of view. Probably the best scripture there is for the “Jesus is God” people.
Okay, my question is this: Were the Father's things ALWAYS in the possession of Jesus? Or were they GIVEN TO JESUS from One who is greater than Jesus?
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 19 2011,12:58) Quote (carmel @ Sep. 18 2011,08:26)
I can't see your point of “DIA”……..I also believe it is created by the Father THROUGH the Son……….
Hi Charles,“Dia” is the Greek word that's sometimes translated as “by”, and other times as “through”. I can see that won't be an issue between us, as it seems we can both live with “BY the Father, THROUGH the Son”.
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 18 2011,08:26)
Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Because all they say is that God has great power and Jesus has great power. That in no way proves that Jesus IS God, right? Especially when you figure in the scriptures that say God GAVE whatever power Jesus has TO him.
Please you must quote my scriptures.
We will get to every scripture in the Bible if you want to – but ONE AT A TIME, please. Your first point was:Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21
I have showed you that Phil 3 only mentions that Jesus has power. Having power does not make one God Almighty, right? So the first point you made using Phil 3 is pretty much shot down. But apparently you think there are other scriptures that say Jesus has ALL the power that God has, and we need to discuss them ONE AT A TIME.
You quoted: John 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Charles, this is a good scripture from your point of view. Probably the best scripture there is for the “Jesus is God” people.
Okay, my question is this: Were the Father's things ALWAYS in the possession of Jesus? Or were they GIVEN TO JESUS from One who is greater than Jesus?
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.peace,
mike
Mike,Quote Okay, my question is this: Were the Father's things ALWAYS in the possession of Jesus? Or were they GIVEN TO JESUS from One who is greater than Jesus? I have showed you that Phil 3 only mentions that Jesus has power. Having power does not make one God Almighty, right?
Wrong.
First it isn’t within our intelligence as mortal beings, that we could say that the Father is greater then Jesus, as a spirit being.
When Jesus stated in John 14:28 “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” He wasn’t referring to divinity or power, but He was referring to His state as a human being, which is useless without the power of the Holy Spirit from the Father.
The kind of body that Jesus lived in while He was on earth couldn’t remain more then three years in that state. That’s why there are 18 years blank, because He wasn’t in full power. Such great power from the Holy Spirit, it was only to be given to Him accordingly to do His mission. Only through the vast accomplishment of those miracles made it possible for the body to remain in good health. He used to pray for whole nights sometimes, to receive the spiritual energy back, purposely prior to accomplishing great miracles.
Luke 6 :12 is a perfect proof. Notice what Jesus became after a whole night of praying, from 17 onwards, and it was vital for Him to use it otherwise it would harm His body.
This is the real proof that Jesus was an ordinary man in flesh and blood, but also God since He possessed a unique power.
Satan was convinced that it was never possible to happen that God becomes man.
Luke 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.17And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases; 18And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed. 19And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.
We have to realize that Jesus was going to die, and was explaining to His apostles that it is a must that He dies, in order to glorify and be in the glory of the Father, because as a human being in flesh and blood, He is not in His proper realm of His Father, as a spiritual being, but through His glorification, He would be one onto His Father as both Spirit and Flesh, two in one. Jesus made it clear that the world was not His kingdom, therefore even the flesh and blood body wasn’t His state of being, He came to the world in order to destroy the flesh and blood body and make it His as it should be.
FLESH AND BLOOD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD.I agree that the power which Jesus received from the Father in order to recreate our world definitely was not always in His possession, since He was not always in that kind of state as a spirit being, it’s common sense why should He require it??
It was given to Him not because He never had it before, or He never had His own power, but since the Son was one within the Father when the Father created all the spiritual worlds, and cosmos through His Son, the word, He wasn’t on His own as a spirit being yet.
But when the Father emanated Him for the first time ever, THE LIGHT, in order to recreate our world through Him, Genesis 1:3,The Father gave him all the power of God Almighty, which is the power of the Son, and the power of the Father but with the power of the Holy Spirit as one super power to FULFILL ALL AS God Almighty Himself, since the Father remained in Heaven.
When the Father created all through His Son this doesn’t put the Son in an inferior position for the simple reason that All creation, both heaven and earth is the embodiment of the Son’s spirit. That’s why He is in command because it’s through Him, in Him, and for Him. But it will be the Father’s on the last day in order to be all under Him. Again it doesn’t make His Son inferior since God’s manifestation is the Son’s
17:5 and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was.
OK ONE GLORY
Now reflect on these words from Jesus: and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself,
Got it!! “along with yourself”, So the Father glorified His Son together with Himself, this is a proof that they are ONE DIVINE SUBSTANCE.
To whom is the Glory in 1 Chronicles 29 . since the Son was all the time within creation and after the fall, battling to glorify the Father on e
arth ?? Definitely To Both.The last bit it says: “with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”.
So it wasn't yet in existence. Not like in Genesis 1:3 because that was a recreation of our world.
Regarding Philippians 3:20, it is quite clear that God Almighty, through His Son Jesus Christ is glorified in spiritual flesh body, and has the power of the Almighty God.
Not only that, but all humans will acquire His glorious body, and become sons and daughters of God, therefore Gods.
John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Quote
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
This is a reference to the souls, selected by the Father in order to become saints,not to power.It was important for Jesus to state so. This for the simple reason that in Jesus time, on earth there was both evil souls, and righteous souls, and Jesus stated that He came for the lost ones.
But notice also, that the Father send them to His Son, in order to be accepted by the Father, especially sinners.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ
Charles
Charles and Mike,
I hope you don't mind some input here.Charles you said:
Quote
Not only that, but all humans will acquire His glorious body, and become sons and daughters of God, therefore Gods.John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Charles, you treat this quote “I said, Ye are gods,” and “He called them gods,” as if it should be something that happened once with continuous results. The Greek has this shown in the aorist indicative tense which shows that it happened in the past at one point in time. If it happened once with continuous results, it would have been written in the Perfect tense in the Greek.
read this:
[/I]In short, the perfect tense is very expressive for it speaks of an action that took place in the past, which was completed in past time, and existence of its finished results. For instance one might say “I have closed the door” which speaks of a past completed action. But the implication is that as a result the door is still closed. Thus, the entire meaning is, “I have closed the door and it is closed at present.” You can see how a simple understanding of the perfect tense can often amplify the meaning which may not be readily apparent in the English translation, because the perfect tense has no exact equivalent in English.In Matthew 4:4, our Lord answers Satan, “It is written” and “written” is in the perfect tense. Here Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy which had been written by Moses 1500 years before, but is still on record. David said, “Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.” A good paraphrase would be “It stands written forever.” It is the eternal word of God and you can stake your life on it yesterday, today and tomorrow! (cf He 13:8, Mt 24:35, Ps 89:34, Is 40:8, 55:11, 1Pe 1:25)
In Ephesians 2:8-note we read, “For by grace you have been saved through faith” where “have been saved” (sozo-word study) is in the perfect tense. The picture therefore for every believer is that each we were given the gift of salvation at a specific time in the past when we believed, and as a result of that past completed work of Jesus Christ on the Cross and our past acceptance of the same, we at present are eternally “safe” (saved) and continue in that state forever in Christ. Amen. A believer's present possession of salvation therefore is based upon one thing only — what Jesus did on the Cross for us and our acceptance of His finished work which means that the works of an individual, past or present, good or bad, do not enter into our acceptance or retention of salvation (Titus 3:5-note; 2Ti 1:9-note). Salvation is the work of Christ alone and our reception of that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. The believer is the recipient which means that the believer is saved and saved forever, for the present results of the perfect tense are always present with the reader. [/I]
found here: http://www.preceptaustin.org/new_page_40.htm
Charles said:
Quote Not only that, but all humans will acquire His glorious body, and become sons and daughters of God, therefore Gods. There is no indication that the saints will be Gods, in the 'perfect' sense of the Greek, anywhere in scripture, that I am aware of.
Kathi
Quote (carmel @ Sep. 21 2011,10:15) Wrong. First it isn’t within our intelligence as mortal beings, that we could say that the Father is greater then Jesus, as a spirit being.
When Jesus stated in John 14:28 “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” He wasn’t referring to divinity or power, but He was referring to His state as a human being, which is useless without the power of the Holy Spirit from the Father.
Hi Charles,You'll have to make up your mind about something very important: Was Jesus GOD in the flesh on earth, or was he NOT? You can't have it both ways.
He either WAS God while he was on the earth. Or he WASN'T God while he was on the earth. I need to know which one you believe before moving forward.
peace,
mike
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