Born and begotten

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,03:23)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,11:12) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,02:37) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,10:33) WJ……….Are you word with you and are the of you, that answer is obviously yes unless you are quoting someone else's words as Jesus was doing. He plainly said the words he was speaking was (NOT) His words. peace and love……………………..gene Gene To you it is obvious. But to me the Text says “the Word was God”. WJ WJ……..Right just like your words are YOU. No difference. Can you at least understand that brother. Your word express your intellects and GOD'S words express (HIS) Intellects. In the beginning GOD (SAID) He Spoke WORDS the Words He spoke were (HIS WORDS) not someone else's WORDS. God and His word are one and the same thing, just as you and your word are one and the same thing. They are the expression of your Being, and GOD'S words are the expression of His being. No difference WJ peace and love……………………..gene Gene My words could be your words so would that mean I am you? My words do not think, speak, hear, taste, feel, in other words my word is not a sentient being Gene. Foolishness. Satan spoke words of God, were those word “Satan”? WJ

WJ…………I case if you missed what i said , i said (UNLESS) you are quoting another Person as Jesus was then the words would not be YOURS. But if you are speaking from (YOURSELF) those word and You ARE the same thing. Common sens should tell you that WJ. Jesus said that which comes out of a mans mouth is what defiles Him, if his words were not Him how could they defile him then? YOUR WORDS AND YOU (ARE) ONE AND THE SAME THING WJ. GODS WORDS AND HE (ARE) ALSO THE SAME THING.

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 14 2010,22:27)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2010,18:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,14:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,14:39) Oh yeah, and don't forget that Satan is one of the everything that came into existence through God's only begotten Son.  How does that fact fit into your theory? And so was days, so how does that fit into your theology? WJ Keith, Did the day come before the light or did the light come before the day?  The light was there first, the light and darkness separated, then evening and morning declared and declared to be one day.  Light came first. Hi Kathi, Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and “darkness” was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Gen 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.   Which came first, darkness (v2) or light (v3)? What is the order of a “day”?  Evening and morning. The Professor

Hi David,
I'm not sure what your point is? Is darkness a 'thing' like light is a 'thing?' Or is darkness merely the absence of a 'thing.' Anyway, during eternity past, God existed and He is light and it would be day always, never a night. Isn't that the way it is going to be in our eternity. We will have no need for the sun for the lamb is our light? It will be just day forever and ever. In heaven it is just day.

[davidbfun]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 15 2010,07:46)

Mike, From page 72: When did any of your “Let's take things point by point” ever end up “point by Point”? This forum is littered with this “begotten” (Who started this?) theme. If all you are saying is that Jesus had a beginning when God created him and you call this being “Begotten” then let it be. This, however, is a human concept. A Spirit does not “Give Birth” to anything. This is a human concept because Human being are limited in their ability and dimensions. A Spirit (read: “God” here) and only God can CREATE another Spirit because ALL Spirit is IN and FROM him. It is the 'intelligence' in Creation. Even the Angels could only create a physical body as man – they then had to occupy them with their own Spirit – Not a separate Spirit. The children they produced had LIFE because God designed the “seed” of man to acquire Spirit – had he stopped it then that would have been reneging – and God does not renege (Regret – yes, but renege – Not at all) Mike, how long will your “…Beat go on” (McFadden and Whitehead) … seems like it's gonna be an “All Night Party” (…?) with all of us “Dancing on the ceiling” (Lionel Ritchie)

Hello JA.

If God is Spirit as you say and doesn't give birth to anything, then who gave birth to the firstborn of all creation that is in the image of God?

And if God had a child (son of God) wouldn't the child come about by God begetting him?  We don't see God saying, “Let there be My son, and son was.”  We don't see that God formed His son out of dust, either. For some stupid reason it says that His son is the FIRSTBORN of all creation and that His son is His only BEGOTTEN son.

But, according to YOU God (Spirit) doesn't give birth to anything.  Again, Islam creeping in….God didn't beget a son.

If we are created in God's image and consist of body and spirit and we give birth why is this a “human” concept. (We are created in God's likeness and image) Obviously the act on Earth is a human act, but we are “mere copies” of what went on in Heaven.

Also, God commanded us to pro-create.  So according to you Adam and Eve thought up the concept of copulating and populating the Earth? Or was it God who blessed the Man and said 1-Be fruitful 2- Multiply 3- Fill the Earth  AND oh my goodness SEX is a blessing! Commanded and ordained by God, who never gave birth to anything.

The Professor

[davidbfun]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2010,22:57)

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 14 2010,22:27) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2010,18:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,14:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,14:39) Oh yeah, and don't forget that Satan is one of the everything that came into existence through God's only begotten Son.  How does that fact fit into your theory? And so was days, so how does that fit into your theology? WJ Keith, Did the day come before the light or did the light come before the day?  The light was there first, the light and darkness separated, then evening and morning declared and declared to be one day.  Light came first. Hi Kathi, Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and “darkness” was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. Gen 1:5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.   Which came first, darkness (v2) or light (v3)? What is the order of a “day”?  Evening and morning. The Professor Hi David, I'm not sure what your point is?  Is darkness a 'thing' like light is a 'thing?'  Or is darkness merely the absence of a 'thing.'  Anyway, during eternity past, God existed and He is light and it would be day always, never a night.  Isn't that the way it is going to be in our eternity.  We will have no need for the sun for the lamb is our light?  It will be just day forever and ever.  In heaven it is just day.

Hi Kathi,

From the way your post read to me I saw that you were talking about “days” and creation.  That is why my references to the order of creation.  

Your response here does bring up an interesting thought.  

“God existed and He is light….and always day”

If that is true then what is the light that He created in Gen 1:3?

I hear you about Revelation…..

When will we sleep?  And enter into God's rest….

The Professor

[mikeboll64]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 15 2010,15:09)

Hello JA. If God is Spirit as you say and doesn't give birth to anything, then who gave birth to the firstborn of all creation that is in the image of God? And if God had a child (son of God) wouldn't the child come about by God begetting him? We don't see God saying, “Let there be My son, and son was.” We don't see that God formed His son out of dust, either. For some stupid reason it says that His son is the FIRSTBORN of all creation and that His son is His only BEGOTTEN son. But, according to YOU God (Spirit) doesn't give birth to anything. Again, Islam creeping in….God didn't beget a son. If we are created in God's image and consist of body and spirit and we give birth why is this a “human” concept. (We are created in God's likeness and image) Obviously the act on Earth is a human act, but we are “mere copies” of what went on in Heaven. Also, God commanded us to pro-create. So according to you Adam and Eve thought up the concept of copulating and populating the Earth? Or was it God who blessed the Man and said 1-Be fruitful 2- Multiply 3- Fill the Earth AND oh my goodness SEX is a blessing! Commanded and ordained by God, who never gave birth to anything. The Professor

Absolutely brilliant David!

mike

[Lightenup]

Hi David,
How about this question…what is the light that He had begotten in Gen 1:3.

Have you heard the expression, “Light of Light' before? The Father is the Light and the Son is the Light OF Light as in Light FROM Light. One was first (the Father) and then beget the other (the Son).

You asked “When will we sleep?” Why do you ask?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2010,23:41)

Hi David, How about this question…what is the light that He had begotten in Gen 1:3.   Have you heard the expression, “Light of Light' before?  The Father is the Light and the Son is the Light OF Light as in Light FROM Light.  One was first (the Father) and then beget the other (the Son). You asked “When will we sleep?”  Why do you ask?

Davidbfun,
Do you have any thoughts on this response?

[Ed J]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 15 2010,15:09)

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 15 2010,07:46) Mike, From page 72: When did any of your “Let's take things point by point” ever end up “point by Point”? This forum is littered with this “begotten” (Who started this?) theme. If all you are saying is that Jesus had a beginning when God created him and you call this being “Begotten” then let it be. This, however, is a human concept. A Spirit does not “Give Birth” to anything. This is a human concept because Human being are limited in their ability and dimensions. A Spirit (read: “God” here) and only God can CREATE another Spirit because ALL Spirit is IN and FROM him. It is the 'intelligence' in Creation. Even the Angels could only create a physical body as man – they then had to occupy them with their own Spirit – Not a separate Spirit. The children they produced had LIFE because God designed the “seed” of man to acquire Spirit – had he stopped it then that would have been reneging – and God does not renege (Regret – yes, but renege – Not at all) Mike, how long will your “…Beat go on” (McFadden and Whitehead) … seems like it's gonna be an “All Night Party” (…?) with all of us “Dancing on the ceiling” (Lionel Ritchie) Hello JA. If God is Spirit as you say and doesn't give birth to anything, then who gave birth to the firstborn of all creation that is in the image of God? And if God had a child (son of God) wouldn't the child come about by God begetting him?  We don't see God saying, “Let there be My son, and son was.”  We don't see that God formed His son out of dust, either. For some stupid reason it says that His son is the FIRSTBORN of all creation and that His son is His only BEGOTTEN son. But, according to YOU God (Spirit) doesn't give birth to anything.  Again, Islam creeping in….God didn't beget a son. If we are created in God's image and consist of body and spirit and we give birth why is this a “human” concept. (We are created in God's likeness and image) Obviously the act on Earth is a human act, but we are “mere copies” of what went on in Heaven. Also, God commanded us to pro-create.  So according to you Adam and Eve thought up the concept of copulating and populating the Earth? Or was it God who blessed the Man and said 1-Be fruitful 2- Multiply 3- Fill the Earth  AND oh my goodness SEX is a blessing! Commanded and ordained by God, who never gave birth to anything. The Professor

Hi David,

Good Job brother!

I wonder if JustAskin will find himself on the side of this “Bible Truth”?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[davidbfun]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2010,23:41)

Hi David, How about this question…what is the light that He had begotten in Gen 1:3.   Have you heard the expression, “Light of Light' before?  The Father is the Light and the Son is the Light OF Light as in Light FROM Light.  One was first (the Father) and then beget the other (the Son). You asked “When will we sleep?”  Why do you ask?

Hi Kathi,

Sorry, I didn't see any new posts.

No, I haven't heard the saying, “Light of Light”.

I used to live in Alaska and in the summer it never got darker than twilight and it was hard to sleep. If it is going to be light all of the time, won't we have a tough time sleeping?

Next time if I don't respond drop a PM to let me know where you posted, ok? I've been jumping around a lot lately and haven't been tracking everywhere I posted.

I like the “idea” that Jesus was born as light when he was the firstborn as well as Gen 1:3 referring to him being the first “thing” God created, light. Since I couldn't begin to “prove” it I would have to add an IMO at the end of the sentence, though.

I couldn't define “image” in Col 1:15 or in Gen 1:27 so anyone's guess could be as valid as another. I only know the end results: firstborn; male and female

The Professor

[Ed J]

Hi David,

               (1John 1:5 ↔ Eph.5:13)
         JEHOVAH GOD ↔ “is the Light”
       117=יהוה האלהים = “is the Light”=117

                             “YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[JustAskin]

Well, heres a pretty picture drawn by DBF.

A flesh based concept disputed against a spritual one.

Dbf starts off by saying, 'If God is a Spirit'.

I stopped reading right there.

And then the gainsayers come out of the woodwork: Mike, Edj, who else.

Ok, so I came back, curiosity.

Flesh man gives birth to a flesh son.
Therefore, says Dbf, and others, Spirit (God) gives birth to a Spirit son.

Have you not yet learnt the spiritual concept of 'Son'.

Let's check out the fleshly version.
A man has a two sons. One son does exactly what his father says and does, is loyal and obedient, an 'exact image' of his father.
The second is disloyal, disobedient, does not hold to the way of his father.

On a certain day, the father brings them together to give them their inheritence.

What does the father say to them?

To the obedient son he says, 'Well done thou loyal and obedient Son, thou art certainly my Son.'

To the other he says, 'Get away from me thou disloyal and disobedient one. Thou certainly are no Son of mine'

So, what is 'a Son' in Scriptural terms. Is it not one who faithfully follows in the way of his father.
Why was Ismael, in the end, not named amongst the sons of Abraham?

So, onto the Spiritual. What is a Siritual Son.

Let's start at the end…

All of mankind who 'overcome' and put on the Spirit body will become 'Sons of God'.
What? Man, fleshly man, to become 'Spirit Sons' of God. What an honour? How, how?
By following in the way of 'the Father', by following in the way of the exemplary spiritual son in the form of the human person, Jesus Christ.

So, fleshly mankind can become Spiritual Sons of God. So, God does not have to 'give birth' to one for that one to be a Son in the spirit.

So, yeah, so. What of Spirit sons of God. Does God, yes DBF, God is Spirit, and God does not 'procreate', for that is a human/flesh method. The spirit of the child comes from God but the body, flesh, is from man. A spirit does not have flesh and therefore the only creation required for a spirit is..the spirit..and that comes from God. Who said that Jesus created the other spirits…where, ever, is that said in Scriptures? Nowhere…

So, and so and so, if all spirit creatures are created by God, and preJesus was created by God, and the Spirit creatures are his Sons as preJesus is a Son, then ALL creations of God, all creations that have the Spirit of God in them, are, 'Sons of God'.

A 'Son' is one who follows in the way of his Father.

A spirit, God, does not 'procreate' to produce sons.

A human 'procreates' because a fleshly body is required.

Angels do not create 'living' entities. They can/could create flesh bodies, but cannot put spirits into them, only God can do that.

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,09:20)

And then the gainsayers come out of the woodwork: Mike, Edj, who else.

Hi JustAskin,

Mathew 7:1-5: Judge not, that ye be not judged. ]For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam
that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of
thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out
of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Eccl.9:12-16 / Isaiah27:4-5)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

JA,
You are so sure about what God can do and about who can procreate. You would think that you were the one that designed the whole process. Procreating for God could simply mean taking an incorruptible 'seed' within Him and producing a Son of the same nature so that He can love the Son and manifest Himself to man through the Son.

Many are sons of God by grace but there is only one “only begotten Son” so I wouldn't equate an only begotten son to all the sons by grace.

Col 1 tells us that all things visible and invisible in heaven and on earth were created by the Firstborn. The firstborn was begotten, not created. The things visible and invisible in heaven and on earth were created, not begotten. The one that was begotten will have the exact representation of the nature of God.

Col 1:16
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him.
NASU

Angels fit the category of things in heaven.

[JustAskin]

Believe what you like, lu.

Check you understanding of things.

But think in the spiritual. Then you will see.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,10:45)

Believe what you like, lu. Check you understanding of things. But think in the spiritual. Then you will see.

What kind of remark is that JA?

Kathi just quoted Col 1:16 for you, and instead of defending your “begotten is a title” and “Satan came first” beliefs, you just say “believe what you like”?

Wow.  Seems to me that she is believing scripture.  Do you?  Or is your “fractal” theory, the invention of the mind of a mere man, overriding the authority of what the scriptures say?

mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2010,18:36)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,14:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2010,14:39) Oh yeah, and don't forget that Satan is one of the everything that came into existence through God's only begotten Son.  How does that fact fit into your theory? And so was days, so how does that fit into your theology? WJ Keith, Did the day come before the light or did the light come before the day?  The light was there first, the light and darkness separated, then evening and morning declared and declared to be one day.  Light came first.

Kathi

But we have already been over this.

The earth that was without form and the deep and the waters are part of the “all things that came into being by Jesus.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 14 2010,22:41)

But if you are speaking from (YOURSELF) those word and You ARE the same thing.

Gene

Are there anywords that you did not recieve from someone else? Are there any words that “originated” by you?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 14 2010,22:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2010,10:39) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2010,23:22) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,01:43) t8 Nice try but the Bible doesn't say we have recieved more than “One Spirit” does it? And as far as us being “One in Spirit” is not the same as being “One Spirit” is it? WJ, yes it was a nice try and there is another one. If we are one in spirit with Jesus and with each other, then it means that we are one in God. Why? Because the Father is the father of spirits. “Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!” So if we are in Christ, then we have unity with God and hence are one with God. Simple. No need to get all confused and say that all who have a spirit or all that we can be one with in Spirit is God. No need for this type of thinking at all when your mind is free. t8 Is the Spirt of Christ and the Spirit of Jesus and God's Spirit the same Spirit? Simple yes or no answer. WJ WJ, A simple yes or no: Is WJ's spirit and the spirit of Christ and the spirit of God the same thing? The Professor

No! Because the Spirit is not a “thing”.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2010,23:41)

Hi David, How about this question…what is the light that He had begotten in Gen 1:3.   Have you heard the expression, “Light of Light' before?  The Father is the Light and the Son is the Light OF Light as in Light FROM Light.  One was first (the Father) and then beget the other (the Son). You asked “When will we sleep?”  Why do you ask?

Kathi

The scriptures do not say God “begat” light in Genesis.

The light is the part of creation not “procreation”.

WJ

[davidbfun]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 16 2010,17:20)

Well, heres a pretty picture drawn by DBF. A flesh based concept disputed against a spritual one. Dbf starts off by saying, 'If God is a Spirit'. I stopped reading right there. And then the gainsayers come out of the woodwork: Mike, Edj, who else. Ok, so I came back, curiosity. Flesh man gives birth to a flesh son. Therefore, says Dbf, and others, Spirit (God) gives birth to a Spirit son. Have you not yet learnt the spiritual concept of 'Son'. Let's check out the fleshly version. A man has a two sons. One son does exactly what his father says and does, is loyal and obedient, an 'exact image' of his father. The second is disloyal, disobedient, does not hold to the way of his father. On a certain day, the father brings them together to give them their inheritence. What does the father say to them? To the obedient son he says, 'Well done thou loyal and obedient Son, thou art certainly my Son.' To the other he says, 'Get away from me thou disloyal and disobedient one. Thou certainly are no Son of mine' So, what is 'a Son' in Scriptural terms. Is it not one who faithfully follows in the way of his father. Why was Ismael, in the end, not named amongst the sons of Abraham? So, onto the Spiritual. What is a Siritual Son. Let's start at the end… All of mankind who 'overcome' and put on the Spirit body will become 'Sons of God'. What? Man, fleshly man, to become 'Spirit Sons' of God. What an honour? How, how? By following in the way of 'the Father', by following in the way of the exemplary spiritual son in the form of the human person, Jesus Christ. So, fleshly mankind can become Spiritual Sons of God. So, God does not have to 'give birth' to one for that one to be a Son in the spirit. So, yeah, so. What of Spirit sons of God. Does God, yes DBF, God is Spirit, and God does not 'procreate', for that is a human/flesh method. The spirit of the child comes from God but the body, flesh, is from man. A spirit does not have flesh and therefore the only creation required for a spirit is..the spirit..and that comes from God. Who said that Jesus created the other spirits…where, ever, is that said in Scriptures? Nowhere… So, and so and so, if all spirit creatures are created by God, and preJesus was created by God, and the Spirit creatures are his Sons as preJesus is a Son, then ALL creations of God, all creations that have the Spirit of God in them, are, 'Sons of God'. A 'Son' is one who follows in the way of his Father. A spirit, God, does not 'procreate' to produce sons. A human 'procreates' because a fleshly body is required. Angels do not create 'living' entities. They can/could create flesh bodies, but cannot put spirits into them, only God can do that.

JA,

You are right, I should have said, “If God is ONLY spirit as you proposed.

However, I put a lot of other information that you chose to bypass which seems to be typical of the rebuttals here and it is getting old.

I notice that you are in the Mods group but you don't believe in the Bible….and seldom respond to the rebuttals that do.  

I thought that this was supposed to be a “Christian” site promoting the Bible not tearing it down as many of the posters are doing.

This response rambled on without any references to Scripture.  Just because you SAY SO doesn't make anything said, “true”.

This is getting sickening to hear the crap and lies that come out of here and nothing at all pertaining to the Bible.  And apparently no one to monitor what is being promoted.

I'd have to study all the other books of all the religions to learn the “bull” that is being spread here.  And by doing so deny the reading and studying of Scripture.  Which is apparently the point.

It appears that “Bod” is also one of you writing on this side of the fence, “believers”…. to promote Islam, JW and other non Biblical views, however without the normal line up of misguided Scriptures to deceive.

The Mark Twain and Woody Allen quotes about talking to a “fool” would be the best way to end this post.

Someone please post them, they were great.

The Professor

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