- This topic has 1,500 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 9 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi JA,
Later scripture reached it's complete fulfillment when he was first begotten of the dead.
I think the major confusion is rather begotten means created or split off from.
What God does share is new life in His own Spirit.“Today I have begotten you' [Ps2]seems to be directed to a person who already was before that begettal.
Hi JA,
I agree what I said is opinion but Jesus is to the the first of many sons.
We cannot go back to the beginning nor can we follow him as a son of Mary so this sonship is by the Spirit.Hi All,
My two cents:
Jesus was begotten or “caused to exist” by his Father in the beginning.
Jesus was begotten or “caused to exist” by his Father (through the Holy Spirit) and Mary.
Jesus was begotten or “caused to exist” by his Father when he was raised.
I've seen no evidence that he was “begotten” at the Jordan.
JA, you need to chill a little, IMO. All the posts I've seen on this thread have to do with the title. The truth is, IMO, that you're making much ado about nothing. Begotten is not the only word in the Bible that has different meanings based on context. When Onesimus was begotten by Paul, it is clear from context that Paul did not procreate Onesimus.
On the other hand, there is nothing in scripture that leads us to believe that when Jesus said “God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son”, he meant anything other than that he was “caused to exist” by his Father.
And as I've told Roo many many times in our debate, Heb 1 has the writer simply quoting scripture. Paul was trying to convince people that Jesus was in fact the true Son of God. He was not trying to indicate when this happened, but the word “today” just happened to be in the scripture he quoted to make his point.
32 We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:“You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
Look again at 32. What did God promise “our Fathers” that was fufilled by Jesus being raised? Was the promise that someday God would have a Son? No. The promise that was fufilled was that God had accomplished His purpose of sending a Messiah who would eliminate our sins so that we could once again have the hope of a one on one relationship with God.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
I love it. Oh, and I'm not attacking you – Just doing mah own thang!
Before time – “Today, I have become your father”
“I have BECOME your Father”
Anyone … does that sound like 'adoption' terminology?
Hi MB,
The Son of God was PROVEN in retrospect to be Jesus by the fulfillment of scripture in his raising from the dead.
Rom1.3
Acts 2.22-26Hi JA,
I agree,
But Peter had to spell it out in Acts 2 as some seemed to be hoping it would be David? because of Ez 34,37Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 05 2010,10:45) Hi JA, And John 3:16 makes it pretty clear he was begotten before he was raised.
Who was Jesus before he was begotten?
And if he was God's Son, how did he begin?
peace and love,
mike
Hi mike.I appreciate your posts and point of view and pretty much agree with most that you say, although I haven't read all your posts.
Jesus was the Word that was with God in the beginning.
The Word became flesh and we know that Jesus came in the flesh. It is the antichrist spirit that denies this.Jesus was the Word and now he has a name written on him:
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.So what form was the Word before the Word became flesh?
T8,
I can guarantee no answer for this (How did He begin – come to be)- Mike wouldn't be asking if he knew – These are elementary turn-a-rounds (When you don't know an answer – make it into a question and put it back to your opponent – The two trinis go even further and use Negatives – – and a negative can't be proven so anyone silly enough to get caught, cannot answer (or tries to lie their way out) and the Trinis then claim victory…old dogs – old tricks…)
Quote (t8 @ June 06 2010,11:30) I appreciate your posts and point of view and pretty much agree with most that you say, although I haven't read all your posts. Jesus was the Word that was with God in the beginning.
The Word became flesh and we know that Jesus came in the flesh. It is the antichrist spirit that denies this.Jesus was the Word and now he has a name written on him:
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.So what form was the Word before the Word became flesh?
Hi t8,Likewise I agree with your views and enjoy your posts.
You asked: So what form was the Word before the Word became flesh?
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of of a servant,
being made in human likeness.To me that says he was spirit, like God, then became flesh, like man.
peace and love,
mikeMike ………Question is it Possible for a word to (become) Flesh , i highly doubt it. Now if you say the word (who is GOD) came to be (IN) Jesus a flesh being , now that makes sense. Remember Jesus himself said the (words) he spoke were (NOT) His words , so a paradox seems to exist here. How could Jesus' Flesh it self be a word , and If those words were not HIS words but someone else's then how could Jesus himself be (THE WORD) . And if you say Jesus was indeed the Word himself then you are calling him a liar, because he denied he was the word (HIMSELF). Now scripture says the The WORD WAS WITH GOD AND (WAS) GOD. does that not add more confusion to your and T8 Ideologies. If GOD who was in (THE) beginning was the WORD HIMSELF then how is it you and T8 try to separate GOD FROM HIS WORD, is that possible> can you separate anyone from their words , i doubt it and neither can you separate GOD from HIS Words either. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Gene,
There is no paradox except for the one you create for yourself.You seem to have (…mistakenly…) taken a literal view of the term 'the Word' capitalised for our understanding.
“The Word” means the embodiment of that which was spoken, the activation of such, the truth of such.
“He was true to his Word”, “Just give me the Word”, “His Word was his Honour”, “Word up('That's True')”
God uttered “the Word” that initiated creation (The Big Bang, in Scientific terms).
'Jesus' was given the task of carrying out the instructions in that Word and did so with consumate perfection, and as such is rightly given the title of 'the Word'. Everything he did was exactly as God had said.
He was 'given God's Word'
He was 'True to God's Word'
He 'honoured God's Word''Word up', Gene, 'Jesus' the Spirit, was 'the Word', man.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 06 2010,11:58) T8, I can guarantee no answer for this (How did He begin – come to be)- Mike wouldn't be asking if he knew – These are elementary turn-a-rounds (When you don't know an answer – make it into a question and put it back to your opponent – The two trinis go even further and use Negatives – – and a negative can't be proven so anyone silly enough to get caught, cannot answer (or tries to lie their way out) and the Trinis then claim victory…old dogs – old tricks…)
Hi JA,Old dogs? Are you calling me old?
It is clear to me. The Father begat, or “caused to exist” Jesus in the beginning. You are the one hung up on “Today I have begotten you”. My question is legit, not a dodge.
If Jesus was not begotten by the Father as the beginning of his life, HOW THEN DID HE COME TO BE?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2010,15:13) Mike ………Question is it Possible for a word to (become) Flesh , i highly doubt it. Now if you say the word (who is GOD) came to be (IN) Jesus a flesh being , now that makes sense. Remember Jesus himself said the (words) he spoke were (NOT) His words , so a paradox seems to exist here. How could Jesus' Flesh it self be a word , and If those words were not HIS words but someone else's then how could Jesus himself be (THE WORD) . And if you say Jesus was indeed the Word himself then you are calling him a liar, because he denied he was the word (HIMSELF). Now scripture says the The WORD WAS WITH GOD AND (WAS) GOD. does that not add more confusion to your and T8 Ideologies. If GOD who was in (THE) beginning was the WORD HIMSELF then how is it you and T8 try to separate GOD FROM HIS WORD, is that possible> can you separate anyone from their words , i doubt it and neither can you separate GOD from HIS Words either. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene
Hi Gene,I'm having trouble following your post. Is there a specific question or point? Are you saying Jesus is NOT the Word? Rev makes clear that he is.
And, echoing JA's point, you are taking the word “word” too literally here.
When do you think God's Son began?
peace and love,
mikeMike,
It is clear that God brought 'Jesus' into being at some point before what we now call 'Time'.
Ha, ha… Love it, get in there, my brother…
Since you are the one claiming that Jesus was 'Begotten as the beginning of his life (eh? Let's read it as I think you meant to write it)', it is up to you to prove that by way of Scriptural evidence.
I love your question and answer about the 'Form' of Jesus…really cool answer!
Jesus was 'Spirit'… I got to admit, you took me completly by surprise. If that is the answer to the question, why all the hu-haa?
Was that it? Just that? Jesus was Spirit? Oh well…
What 'kind of Spirit': God, Holy Spirit, Seraphim, Cherubim, Ministering Angel, a unique Spirit? Satan(Call him Lucifer for name sake, Satan is a Title) was a Cherubim who stood 'in' the throne of God (Does anyone know what that means?)
'Lucifer' is mention by person in Scriptures, why was 'Jesus' not mentioned by person, or was he?
Hi JA,
You said:
Quote It is clear that God brought 'Jesus' into being at some point before what we now call 'Time'. Agreed.
You said:
Quote Since you are the one claiming that Jesus was 'Begotten as the beginning of his life (eh? Let's read it as I think you meant to write it)', it is up to you to prove that by way of Scriptural evidence. Yes, that is exactly how I meant it. My “proof” comes from the process of elimination. We agree that “Jesus” came from God at the beginning of his life. We know from John 3:16 that Jesus was already the “only begotten Son” of God before he came to earth. Therefore the question arises: Which makes more logical sense?
1. Jesus was caused to exist by God in the beginning, and then later (but still before he came to earth), God bestowed on him the title of “begotten Son” for a reason unknown to us.
OR
2. Jesus was caused to exist by being begotten by God in the beginning, therefore could say that God sent His only begotten Son into the world.
I mean, we know that Judah was a begotten son of Jacob, right? Do we have to read so much into it? Why couldn't Jesus be the begotten Son of God in the same way? God is the One who designed the begetting process that we understand. Why then, would He make it mean one thing for us, but another for Him and His Son?
When it says God grieved that He ever created man, should we take it to simply mean “grieved” as in the way we grieve? Or is there some special hidden meaning to it because He is God?
So let me turn it around on you. I'm taking the scriptures as they are written. YOU, on the other hand, are the one trying to read more into them and come up with alternate meanings. I think that the burden of proof lies with you, brother.
You said:
Quote I love your question and answer about the 'Form' of Jesus…really cool answer! Jesus was 'Spirit'… I got to admit, you took me completly by surprise. If that is the answer to the question, why all the hu-haa?
Was that it? Just that? Jesus was Spirit? Oh well…
You should know that most of the “hu-haa” surrounding scriptures is caused by sects like the trinitarians who want to either change the definitions of words, or take certain scriptures out of context to make more of them than what is written. It is the latter in this case. They like to say “in the form of God” somehow implies Jesus is God. But all it really says is that he was spirit, then became flesh. Btw, he's spirit again.
You said:
Quote What 'kind of Spirit': God, Holy Spirit, Seraphim, Cherubim, Ministering Angel, a unique Spirit? Satan(Call him Lucifer for name sake, Satan is a Title) was a Cherubim who stood 'in' the throne of God (Does anyone know what that means?) The Bible doesn't specify what kind of spirit. But as “co-creator” of all other spirit creatures, I would assume that even then, Jesus was higher than all others except his God.
Where is Satan called Lucifer in scripture, and where is it said he stood “in the throne of God”? That could really come in handy for me later.
peace and love,
mike
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
