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Quote (JustAskin @ June 04 2010,11:11) How do I say, I am in agreement with Jack over 'Begotten', and have been since the beginning…
Even now, I can scarcely write it, but nonetheless, it has been hovering on the tip of my fingers and I have been holding off from posting hoping not to have to say it.
Hi JA,That's old news to me, brother!
But if Jesus wasn't begotten by God, how did he come to be?
ps it's okay to agree with Jack. He interprets scripture correctly once in a rare while. This just isn't one of those times.
I still love ya,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2010,13:07) Hi MB,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit creates[Ps104]The sonship that we can follow began at the Jordan
Hi Nick.So what if your baptised at a younger age (say 14) then become lost and sin (not badly just things like anger worldliness), then return to God, age 30 say, what is your opinion, do you think the person should be rebaptised?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2010,12:11) Hi MB,
Those who promote catholic theology offer the teachings of men from 100 ad onwards.
The apostasy came early so best stick to scripture.
Hi Nick,Why can't I seem to make anyone understand? I don't care what Eusebius' views were. He batted for the trinitarians, albeit reluctantly.
Can you not understand that I use his quote ONLY to prove Roo's understanding that “monogenes” didn't really mean “only begotten” in NT times false?
From the wording of the quote, it most certainly still meant “only begotten”. That is all. I said 5 times that I'm not asking anyone to agree with his views, just to acknowledge his usage of the words “monogenes”, “genao”, and “prototokos pasa ktisis”.
I agree with you. I think it was mentioned in scripture that apostates were already in among the elect, right? So I, like you, prefer to stick to scripture.
But how do you argue from scripture when the very scripture you are using is taken away from you by someone saying, “Although the Greek word means black, in this context it really means white”?
All I've used Eusebius for is to get my scripture back, man!
mike
Romans 13-4, states:
Jesus, '…declared to be the Son of God (Begotten) with power accordingto the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead'Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,10:28) Romans 13-4, states:
Jesus, '…declared to be the Son of God (Begotten) with power accordingto the Spirit of Holiness by resurrection from the dead'
Hi JA,And John 3:16 makes it pretty clear he was begotten before he was raised.
Who was Jesus before he was begotten?
And if he was God's Son, how did he begin?
peace and love,
mikeTo All! There are enough Scriptures that tell us that Jesus had a beginning like
Col 1:15 Rev. 3:14 tells me that He is the firstborn of all creation.
Then in
John 6:38 He tell us that” For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of my Father.
John 8:58
John 3:17
Firstborn means that He came forth and He came forth from His Father. Proverbs 8
He received the Holy Spirit on the Jordan and was born from above. Firstborn and born from above is not the same. But I think that begotten and born is..or brought fourth. Today I have begotten you. IMO Our Heavenly Father is a Creator and He did create His Son. How??? I do not think that there is a Scripture that tells us that, except the ones I gave…Unless someone knows…..I find all of this really simple if we use our heads. Knowing that there is NO TRINITY makes it easy for me….
There are also other Scriptures that tell me that He existed before the world was. John 17:5 by Jesus own words.
John 1:1 is of course the Scripture that makes so many fall all over it. The Word was made flesh should clear it up that it was Jesus before He became a man. God in the flesh….Also in Rev, 13:19 it shows us what He is coming as. verse 16 KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. The Word of God. I AM SO READY FOR OUR KING TO COME, ARE YOU?
Peace and Love IreneTo All,
All this stressing…
At no time do I deny Jesus' preexistence. And I don't think any other poster here is saying else. So there is no need for verses stating or claiming this.
In fact, to do so show lack of understanding of what is being discussed…
Who is so ignorant among us that they think the phrase 'Brain Power is lacking' is an insult to their friend 'Brian Powers', or that the warning notice stating that 'Bill Stickers will be prosecuted' is a 'stitch up', that 'Bill Stickers is innocent!'
The thread is concerning 'when Jesus was Begotten' not tnat he was born, created, extruded, extracted, brought forth…whatever…but when was he 'begotten'…and …what is the difference between being 'begotten' and 'being born…'?
So far, it is agreed the following:
BEGOTTEN 'can' mean 'being born' but is more of a metaphorical birth, a Spiritual birth, a rebirth, a repositioning of state, an adoption.
That this is also linked with 'Firstborn'…born…That one who is NOT first born – (born first, a very important state for a Hebrew Son who will inherit, automatically, their father's estate, or the lion's share, at least) can be 'brought up in state, in position' as the 'firstborn', the one to inherit, over that one that is actually the 'legitmate, legal in order, firstborn'.
Now, what does 'born' mean over begotten?
So far, there has been much straining over understanding this very simple, open concept. Nothing hidden, nothing stressy. No two words mean the same exact thing, so Born and Begotten do not mean the same thing and are interchangeable in use except by superficial usage by superficial conjecture.
Eve did not say, 'This day, I have begotten a child'
Seth, in my opinion, was not only 'born' of Adam but also became 'begotten' of Adam over Cain, yet Seth was not the 'legal firstborn'…ha!…why use 'born' here..is anyone ever said to be 'firstbegotten'?
All credible responses welcomed.
Hi JA,
In human terms:
A man can beget a child, while a woman can give birth.But in spiritual terms we can be begotten from above or reborn of the Spirit.
Nick,
This is not the point. To give birth is not an issue but a distraction in this context.
This has been entered by those who are bent on 'being right about being wrong'.
Do you then say that a Son 'born' into the house of a man is only refering to the woman 'giving birth' to that Son?
Or that it should be said that the Son was 'Begotten into the household'.
Is this how Scriptures shows it?
Please post some verse showing this, please.
Open question to all:
In what context is the word 'born' used and also the context that 'begotten' is used?Quote (JustAskin @ June 05 2010,19:39) To All, All this stressing…
At no time do I deny Jesus' preexistence. And I don't think any other poster here is saying else. So there is no need for verses stating or claiming this.
In fact, to do so show lack of understanding of what is being discussed…
Who is so ignorant among us that they think the phrase 'Brain Power is lacking' is an insult to their friend 'Brian Powers', or that the warning notice stating that 'Bill Stickers will be prosecuted' is a 'stitch up', that 'Bill Stickers is innocent!'
The thread is concerning 'when Jesus was Begotten' not tnat he was born, created, extruded, extracted, brought forth…whatever…but when was he 'begotten'…and …what is the difference between being 'begotten' and 'being born…'?
So far, it is agreed the following:
BEGOTTEN 'can' mean 'being born' but is more of a metaphorical birth, a Spiritual birth, a rebirth, a repositioning of state, an adoption.
That this is also linked with 'Firstborn'…born…That one who is NOT first born – (born first, a very important state for a Hebrew Son who will inherit, automatically, their father's estate, or the lion's share, at least) can be 'brought up in state, in position' as the 'firstborn', the one to inherit, over that one that is actually the 'legitmate, legal in order, firstborn'.
Now, what does 'born' mean over begotten?
So far, there has been much straining over understanding this very simple, open concept. Nothing hidden, nothing stressy. No two words mean the same exact thing, so Born and Begotten do not mean the same thing and are interchangeable in use except by superficial usage by superficial conjecture.
Eve did not say, 'This day, I have begotten a child'
Seth, in my opinion, was not only 'born' of Adam but also became 'begotten' of Adam over Cain, yet Seth was not the 'legal firstborn'…ha!…why use 'born' here..is anyone ever said to be 'firstbegotten'?
All credible responses welcomed.
Question what is wrong with comparing of what Born means and begotten means and born again means. You seam to want to ignore others post of what they believe to explain things the way they see it. So don't be so quick to judge others. Read all of your posts you do that a lot…selfrighteous comes to mind…. That to me is not Christian…. Rather be kind and patient. We are all here to learn from each other, at least I thought we are. When I said something about the preexisting of Jesus that is how God brought forward His Son in the beginning John 1:1. To ignore such understanding is wrong….Mike in His post asked how did He (Jesus)begin. You see not all do understand that Jesus was a Spirit Being before He became a man…. so who is ignoring….. look in the mirror….You did the same thing to my Husband and He gave up posting because of it, I will not. Why should I. We have been on this site longer then you have and you my friend have to learn to respect others…. I did not just post for your eyes to see only.
Born again means that we receive God's Holy Spirit, Born from above is a better way to put it… Born again means that you will be resurrected as a Spirit Being. I think that both mean something else… Some say that you are born again when you are Baptized and receive God's Holy Spirit. But Jesus talking to Nicodemus explains it, that you have to be born again in order to see Gods Kingdom….That is what we are going to be hopefully… some of course will be Human Beings who inherit the earth….Begotten means that you are Born. That is the way I see it. Can I be wrong of course we all can, unless we are Superman…. And no one is yet a Spirit Being…. Peace and Love IreneIrene………Produce (ONE) Scripture that says “Jesus was a Spirit (BEING) before he was born here on earth”. I have never seen that anywhere in scriptures.
peace and love to you and Georg……………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 06 2010,02:34) Irene………Produce (ONE) Scripture that says “Jesus was a Spirit (BEING) before he was born here on earth”. I have never seen that anywhere in scriptures. peace and love to you and Georg……………….gene
Gene Look in the appropriate tread. There are posts that explains it…. I cannot go of topic here… IreneArnold,
We are trying to reach the the higher levels of truth here. The discusser on this site vary in ability and i do take that into account when I post or respond to a post.Those with higher ability, I come down harder on because they should know better.
Part of the problem is those that CLAIM to know better but don't – when I come down hard on them they go off crying – why – because they are 'hurt', 'bruised' – Well, DON'T TRY TO BE HARDER (Knowledgeable) THAN YOU REALLY ARE?
I am not always ASKING when I post an JUST ASKIN' question? The point is to raise (or lower) the point to the LEVEL of a question.
This way, the responder shows their true nature – or a nature that they wish to expose.
If you agree that “Begotten” means “Born from above” then great – you are God-Blessed in that, at least.
If you don't – what is it that you are not understanding – If you are not understanding , then there are issues that you need to reconcile with your later renderings.So, if you (The royal 'YOU', ONE) believes that Begotten simply means “Born” please explain why the TWO words?
and
All the other questions I asked. I will JUST TELL you this – it will mean INVENTING AN ANSWER.Scriptures clearly shows that Jesus was “Begotten” by God after his resurrection – This is then confused with Jesus being “Begotten” prior to being sent to earth – Why would he be “Begotten” – Why would God say to him (with noone else around – Just Jesus and God – before creation – before the angels were created) “You are my Son, ???Today???(before there were any Days) – I have begotten you! And also, Let all the Angels of heaven worship (do obeisance to) him – there were No angels at that time.
And Again, “Thy throne…”, so God was anointing and enthroning Jesus even as he was …born…At the end of the day… it cannot be proved in any way whether Jesus was Born or Begotten by God before the ages – I am 'testing' Hebrews 1 against what we know from Scriptures. That Hebrews 1 is about the resurrection of Christ.
I still have not heard anyone say anything about who Jesus' BRETHREN are – Why? I know the reason, I'm Just Askin'!
Quote (JustAskin @ June 06 2010,04:42) Arnold,
We are trying to reach the the higher levels of truth here. The discusser on this site vary in ability and i do take that into account when I post or respond to a post.Those with higher ability, I come down harder on because they should know better.
Part of the problem is those that CLAIM to know better but don't – when I come down hard on them they go off crying – why – because they are 'hurt', 'bruised' – Well, DON'T TRY TO BE HARDER (Knowledgeable) THAN YOU REALLY ARE?
I am not always ASKING when I post an JUST ASKIN' question? The point is to raise (or lower) the point to the LEVEL of a question.
This way, the responder shows their true nature – or a nature that they wish to expose.
If you agree that “Begotten” means “Born from above” then great – you are God-Blessed in that, at least.
If you don't – what is it that you are not understanding – If you are not understanding , then there are issues that you need to reconcile with your later renderings.So, if you (The royal 'YOU', ONE) believes that Begotten simply means “Born” please explain why the TWO words?
and
All the other questions I asked. I will JUST TELL you this – it will mean INVENTING AN ANSWER.Scriptures clearly shows that Jesus was “Begotten” by God after his resurrection – This is then confused with Jesus being “Begotten” prior to being sent to earth – Why would he be “Begotten” – Why would God say to him (with noone else around – Just Jesus and God – before creation – before the angels were created) “You are my Son, ???Today???(before there were any Days) – I have begotten you! And also, Let all the Angels of heaven worship (do obeisance to) him – there were No angels at that time.
And Again, “Thy throne…”, so God was anointing and enthroning Jesus even as he was …born…At the end of the day… it cannot be proved in any way whether Jesus was Born or Begotten by God before the ages – I am 'testing' Hebrews 1 against what we know from Scriptures. That Hebrews 1 is about the resurrection of Christ.
I still have not heard anyone say anything about who Jesus' BRETHREN are – Why? I know the reason, I'm Just Askin'!
that is what I did when I read your post, you think far to much of yourself, come down……As you can see Gene too does not know that Jesus preexisted His Birth on earth…..know it all…. give us a break……as you can see I directed Gene to the right tread and brought it up. Are you happy now??? And my Name is Irene not Arnold…..If you look around that name at one time was my users name…. O well…….and I was not crying either, are you for real and they are hurt??? I guess you did not read my post did you? Born from above of God's Holy Spirit…Born again when we will see Jesus I hope…. if I am worthy…. IMO I really think that the Saints in the first three centuries are far more worthy then any of us….IMO
thank you for the laugh….IreneNick,
Jb25: “Born of a woman” – Sorry fellow, what is it good for – absolutely nothing (Hey I know that song and the dance to go with it!)
Jer 16.3 “Sons and daughters Born [were given birth to (No reference to Mother/Father)] in this place” – “Mothers who BORE [Carried/gave birth to] them and their fathers who begot[ok, this means procreated] them in this land”
Is 45.10 “Woe to him that said to his father, What beget you? or to the woman, What have you brought forth?[ok,again]
Is 49.21 “Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?”
Here “Zion” is said have “Begotten” children [procreated from another], even during it's bereavement.Acts 13:32-34 puts is quit succinctly;
Quote 32 We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:“You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
34 The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words:
“I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.
I have over-versed (32 and 34) to put a kind of Parenthesis around the pertinent verses so I cannot be accused of 'selected versing'.
Also: Hebrews 5:5 “So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you …”
This too, is clearly referring to Jesus after he was raised from the dead – and APPOINTED the Priesthood by Him who Also said to Him…YKW.
The other question of exactly HOW Jesus came into existence is just that – Another Question for another discussion.
My point is that Jesus was, according to the written, not conjectured, word “Begotten” of God the Father after his resurrection from the dead.
This is a Spiritual Birth, Spiritual RE-Birth in line with the Fractal scriptures:
– Isaac being spiritually Begotten as Firstborn of Abraham over Ishmael
– David being Spiritually Begotten of God over Saul
– Onesimus being Spiritually Begotten of Paul (Philemon 1)
– Others…Also: John 5:18, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not”
Here is a clear distinction between “Born” and “Begotten” used in full and proper context.
Born is “given birth to” – plus here the Holy Spirit is added to (So the one is 'born' “Son of God”: as 'Lucifer' was, as 'Jesus' was – as Adam was)
Begotten is “Spiritually Lifted up [out of reach of the wicked one]”I think a little bit of GodHonest focussed thinking (and a little 'googling') would have cleared this up yonks ago!
Irene,
there re point where we wholeheartedly agree.
I have many times, and you will see in my post, that WE should not refer to ourselves in the same manner as we read in the Scriptures.
The “WE” and “Our” in the Scriptures is for those who attained the greatest gifts and are now or will be, in heaven. I denote similar things as “we” and “our” and add “in the hope of salvation”
– I have been tested on this – and came out smiling because I could point back to where I had already written it – No, I do not say “I am saved ” but that “I have the Hope of it”, I do not say “We are going to heaven” but “'We' (the saint, Apostles, elders) are going to heaven” according to the Scriptures.I do agree “Born from above” – but you are speaking of Man – that was never my intention – that is another issue that, in fact, only adds weight to my argument because the Scripture says that “We” (Them) Will be “Begotten of God” – “We” will be Spiritually reborn – and he will be a father to “Us” and “We” will be to him a Son”
And finally, I wasn't asking you IF you agreed – because I already saw that you did – I deliberately 'opened it up' for others.
You may not know it – or it should be apparent by now – that I write in layers – There is [nearly] always more to what I write than what is superficially read.
It is like Jesus using Parables. To some it is just an amusing everyday story – but lift up the top layer and there is a whole different deeper story – a reality – lying underneath – for those who JUST ASK!
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