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Ok, so where was I – Oh yes.
Please can someone help me through Hebrews 1:1-9:
Quote
Psalm 89:19 Then You spoke in a vision to Your holy one,
And said: “I have given help to one who is mighty;
I have exalted one chosen from the people. (Jesus is chosen from among his brethren, the Princes, Principle Sons of God)Psalm 89:20 I have found My servant David;
With My holy oil I have anointed him, (Jesus is anointed with the Holy spirit)Psalm 89:21 With whom My hand shall be established;
Also My arm shall strengthen him.22 The enemy shall not outwit him,
Nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 I will beat down his foes before his face,
And plague those who hate him.24 “But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him,
And in My name his horn shall be exalted.
25 Also I will set his hand over the sea, (The Mass crowd, the people, the nations)
And his right hand over the rivers. (The elect?)
Quote
Psalm 89:26 He shall cry to Me, ‘You are my Father, (“Abba – Father!”)
My God, and the rock of my salvation.’ (“Eli Eli….”)Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him My firstborn, (Jesus 'adopted/taken up/begotten' as FIRST SON by Rank order above all his brethren
“You are my Son, Today I have begotten you”
– who are these brethren, these other Sons of God?)
The highest of the kings of the earth. (King of kings…)Quote
Psalm 89:28 My mercy I will keep for him forever, (Jesus will be the judge)
And My covenant shall stand firm with him. (Establishing the Covenant Promise in Christ)Psalm 89:29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, (Apostles, Saints, believers)
And his throne as the days of heaven. (His reigning as King over the earth, etc)Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,09:13) Ok, so where was I – Oh yes. Please can someone help me through Hebrews 1:1-9:
Quote
Psalm 89:19 Then You spoke in a vision to Your holy one,
And said: “I have given help to one who is mighty;
I have exalted one chosen from the people. (Jesus is chosen from among his brethren, the Princes, Principle Sons of God)Psalm 89:20 I have found My servant David;
With My holy oil I have anointed him, (Jesus is anointed with the Holy spirit)Psalm 89:21 With whom My hand shall be established;
Also My arm shall strengthen him.22 The enemy shall not outwit him,
Nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 I will beat down his foes before his face,
And plague those who hate him.24 “But My faithfulness and My mercy shall be with him,
And in My name his horn shall be exalted.
25 Also I will set his hand over the sea, (The Mass crowd, the people, the nations)
And his right hand over the rivers. (The elect?)
Quote
Psalm 89:26 He shall cry to Me, ‘You are my Father, (“Abba – Father!”)
My God, and the rock of my salvation.’ (“Eli Eli….”)Psalm 89:27 Also I will make him My firstborn, (Jesus 'adopted/taken up/begotten' as FIRST SON by Rank order above all his brethren
“You are my Son, Today I have begotten you”
– who are these brethren, these other Sons of God?)
The highest of the kings of the earth. (King of kings…)Quote
Psalm 89:28 My mercy I will keep for him forever, (Jesus will be the judge)
And My covenant shall stand firm with him. (Establishing the Covenant Promise in Christ)Psalm 89:29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, (Apostles, Saints, believers)
And his throne as the days of heaven. (His reigning as King over the earth, etc)
The firstborn of a father is to carry on the Father's legacy/name. He's to follow in his father's footsteps and do his will.That's why in so many foreign traditions, the father only cares about the firstborn, and the rest of the children are usually neglected. It doesn't hold true for everyone, but it's a popular trend.
Jesus is exactly that, the firstborn of God…in a way no other man could ever be. He not only carried on his will, but he did so down to the T…perfectly.
Even his personality and the way he spoke was exactly like God.
But you're trying to relate apples and oranges even tho they are all fruit.
Comparing begotten to born, won't solve what you're looking for. Cause even if you gained the meaning, you're feeble human mind would still rationalize.
You're also trying to compare prophetic poems to prove the reality of Jesus.
Have you ever had a prophetic dream? The stuff that happens aren't real but they symbolize what will happen.
To take a literal translation of a poem to attribute it literally to reality would be an unwise jesture.
Right now, you're questioning if Jesus is God…but the way you are looking for the answer won't help you. Well i can't say that, because who am I to know where your prying will lead…so i'll just say, you can do things a much easier and efficient way to find out. (Go ahead and deny it, but that is the root to all your questions)
RM,
You really have NO IDEA about me.
Even as you try to rationise me you slip in assumations.
Try me on DREAMS… – no i'm no dreamer before you poke that one in.
Scriptures is Fractal – know what that means?
Questioning if Jesus is God? – wow – how/where did you pick that up – Never in my life have I thought Jesus is/was God.
Hey, I JUST ASKed the question – it's for the YOU's out there to answer – Didn't I say that unless someone came up with an acceptable answer I would make my own mind up. Actually, you sound a little like WJ. Hey, You are WJ, NEW WJ… hey you are HALFWAY there… keep coming the fence isn't that high.
Oh, just re-read your post.
Jesus is the firstborn God (Caps) – Since when can GOD (Caps) be created – God (Caps) is not a Created entity.
I'm not getting into debate about “GOD”, “God” and “god” – Mike has that covered at length.
The outcome it seems, unless there are any latecomers, despite all the Experts here – No One knows what Begotten means and are simplifying it down to the same as 'Man begotten – woman born” even when there is no woman involved (A nation begotten over another… Onesimus begotten of Saint Paul – while he was in Prison…? Who is Onesimus' mother? No, it meant Paul was his SPIRITUAL FATHER whom Paul 'Adopted' from his sinful position as a runaway Slave.
I know the reason for the stubbornness – I want to break it down:
let shame wain
Don't stay Truthless
Be ruthless
Wash your stain
it'll be your gainHebrews 1:2 is quite clear that Jesus “APPOINTED HEIR” of all things.
Why would he be “Appointed” if he were ALREADY “FIRSTBORN” over his brethren – WHO ARE HIS BRETHREN?
Why does God tell him that he is His SON? That doesn't make sense by itself? It Makes sense as a PROCLAMATION, a DECLARATION of ADOPTION:LET IT BE KNOWN
LET IT BE SHOWN
THAT FROM THIS DAY ON
YOU ARE MY SON
MY FIRSTBORN
SPIRITUALLY BEGOTTEN
ABOVE YOUR BROTHERS
ONLY ONE NO OTHERS
HOLY SPIRIT ANOINTED
GOD BLESSED APPOINTED
ETERNAL HEIR TO ALL
A KINGDOM TO NEVER FALLQuote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,10:11) Oh, just re-read your post. Jesus is the firstborn God (Caps) – Since when can GOD (Caps) be created – God (Caps) is not a Created entity.
I'm not getting into debate about “GOD”, “God” and “god” – Mike has that covered at length.
The outcome it seems, unless there are any latecomers, despite all the Experts here – No One knows what Begotten means and are simplifying it down to the same as 'Man begotten – woman born” even when there is no woman involved (A nation begotten over another… Onesimus begotten of Saint Paul – while he was in Prison…? Who is Onesimus' mother? No, it meant Paul was his SPIRITUAL FATHER whom Paul 'Adopted' from his sinful position as a runaway Slave.
I know the reason for the stubbornness – I want to break it down:
let shame wain
Don't stay Truthless
Be ruthless
Wash your stain
it'll be your gainHebrews 1:2 is quite clear that Jesus “APPOINTED HEIR” of all things.
Why would he be “Appointed” if he were ALREADY “FIRSTBORN” over his brethren – WHO ARE HIS BRETHREN?
Why does God tell him that he is His SON? That doesn't make sense by itself? It Makes sense as a PROCLAMATION, a DECLARATION of ADOPTION:LET IT BE KNOWN
LET IT BE SHOWN
THAT FROM THIS DAY ON
YOU ARE MY SON
MY FIRSTBORN
SPIRITUALLY BEGOTTEN
ABOVE YOUR BROTHERS
ONLY ONE NO OTHERS
HOLY SPIRIT ANOINTED
GOD BLESSED APPOINTED
ETERNAL HEIR TO ALL
A KINGDOM TO NEVER FALL
JA……..Good post , that is the way I see it also brother. We seem to be of Kindred Spirits.peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,10:11) Oh, just re-read your post. Jesus is the firstborn God (Caps) – Since when can GOD (Caps) be created – God (Caps) is not a Created entity.
I'm not getting into debate about “GOD”, “God” and “god” – Mike has that covered at length.
The outcome it seems, unless there are any latecomers, despite all the Experts here – No One knows what Begotten means and are simplifying it down to the same as 'Man begotten – woman born” even when there is no woman involved (A nation begotten over another… Onesimus begotten of Saint Paul – while he was in Prison…? Who is Onesimus' mother? No, it meant Paul was his SPIRITUAL FATHER whom Paul 'Adopted' from his sinful position as a runaway Slave.
I know the reason for the stubbornness – I want to break it down:
let shame wain
Don't stay Truthless
Be ruthless
Wash your stain
it'll be your gainHebrews 1:2 is quite clear that Jesus “APPOINTED HEIR” of all things.
Why would he be “Appointed” if he were ALREADY “FIRSTBORN” over his brethren – WHO ARE HIS BRETHREN?
Why does God tell him that he is His SON? That doesn't make sense by itself? It Makes sense as a PROCLAMATION, a DECLARATION of ADOPTION:LET IT BE KNOWN
LET IT BE SHOWN
THAT FROM THIS DAY ON
YOU ARE MY SON
MY FIRSTBORN
SPIRITUALLY BEGOTTEN
ABOVE YOUR BROTHERS
ONLY ONE NO OTHERS
HOLY SPIRIT ANOINTED
GOD BLESSED APPOINTED
ETERNAL HEIR TO ALL
A KINGDOM TO NEVER FALLAMEN!!
GREAT POST!!
Quote (JustAskin @ June 01 2010,10:11) Hebrews 1:2 is quite clear that Jesus “APPOINTED HEIR” of all things.
Why would he be “Appointed” if he were ALREADY “FIRSTBORN” over his brethren – WHO ARE HIS BRETHREN?
Why does God tell him that he is His SON? That doesn't make sense by itself? It Makes sense as a PROCLAMATION, a DECLARATION of ADOPTION:
JA,Who was Jesus when he said he was God's Son before he was raised?
How about when referring to himself, he said God sent His only begotten Son?
How about John saying we saw his glory – the glory of an only begotten son?
Who was Jesus when he praised Peter for understanding that he was in fact God's Son?
Who was Jesus when God said This is my Son, the beloved…?
How can you think he inherited “begotten son” as a title when he was raised? Who in the world was he before he was raised?
You blow off the writings of Eusebius and make a joke about a soccer player. But he was instrumental in the early church and was considered the “most learned theologian” of his day. He took it to mean Jesus was begotten by God, the firstborn of every creature BEFORE ALL THE AGES. He understood this from the scriptures. The ones that were written in his native language. He knew the scriptures like the back of his hand, but never came to the conclusion that begotten son was just a title.
Think about this: If Jesus came from God (as you believe), who was he before creation? Think about it. He was “caused to exist” by God. Therefore he was either the “begotten Word” or the “created Word”. Now we know from Rev the the Word is the exact same as Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Was he “the begotten brother” of God before he recieved the title of “begotten Son”? Was he the “begotten partner” of God? Who then?
You know I love you man
mikeHi MB,
Jesus was the FIRST begotten from the dead.
But his begettal from God was announced by God at the Jordan.
We seek rebirth from above that in following him we may be joined in his resurrection.[Rom6,1Peter1]Mikeboll said to JA:
Quote Therefore he was either the “begotten Word” or the “created Word”.
Seeing that the scripture no where says that Jesus was created; and that God cannot literally “beget” offspring like men beget offspring, then Jesus was “monogenes” in the sense that He was the only Son of God's kind. For “genes” simply means “kind.” Example: Homogenous means “humankind.”Kangaroo Jack
To all,
As well as the open question posed – can I have input on WHO Jesus' Brethren are who he was raised above.
Ok, “Your starter for 10”: We know they are called Angels – What else – Ah yes; “Sons of God” (Job 1 & 2) and some are called “Mighty Ones” and Princes (Psalm 82 – Which Prince fell?).Please expand on this for me.
Hi Ja, born or begotten.. iv been reading Sheppard of Hermas iv also read Enoch. So what iv been seeing lately is this…The son of God is the Holy Spirit who always existed with God and through the son of God (Holy Spirit) all things were made.
So Jesus was a perfect Man who at Baptism the Son of God (Holy Spirit) descended down on him, from then on Jesus was speaking by the Holy Spirit who was in Him. (His words were not his own)
Then when Jesus was crucified he went up to the Father and so then there was him Jesus as a second begotten son of God along with the original Son of God.
Iv just been reading this through other writtings though so dont know how much truth there is in it all. I need to read more.
I still cant understand if this were true, how the virgin birth comes into it I dont know.
To All,
How should truth be manifested?
Who should be the manifestor?
Who is as wise as God that He can use even his adversary to exalt Himself, like he raised up Pharoah in power over his own, to show His own His mighty power when He threw down that same Pharoah.
Answer me a cryptic question: In this wicked place a child shall lead a lion without an eye, perhaps!
How do I say, I am in agreement with Jack over 'Begotten', and have been since the beginning…
Even now, I can scarcely write it, but nonetheless, it has been hovering on the tip of my fingers and I have been holding off from posting hoping not to have to say it.How should I say, Should I say…
Shall I make a revelation this day?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 02 2010,05:40) Hi MB,
Jesus was the FIRST begotten from the dead.
But his begettal from God was announced by God at the Jordan.
We seek rebirth from above that in following him we may be joined in his resurrection.[Rom6,1Peter1]
Yes Nick,He was also the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of God, and the only begotten Son of God way before he died and was raised.
That's what the scriptures say, do they not?
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit creates[Ps104]The sonship that we can follow began at the Jordan
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 02 2010,05:47) Seeing that the scripture no where says that Jesus was created; and that God cannot literally “beget” offspring like men beget offspring, then Jesus was “monogenes” in the sense that He was the only Son of God's kind. For “genes” simply means “kind.” Example: Homogenous means “humankind.”
Hi Jack,There are actually two scriptures that say Jesus was created. A few more that say he was begotten. You and I cannot possibly pretend to limit God's abililties and say “God cannot literally beget offspring like men”, can we?
Here it is in a nutshell. You know that the Greek word “monogenes” means “only begotten”. The KJV knows it. The NIV knows it. But to get out of the fact that the words DO actually mean “only begotten”, you try to say that the word wasn't really used in that sense in NT times.
You come to this conclusion from studying LXX MSS from the 4th century, right? So I give you a quote from “the most learned theologian” of the 4th century who seems to think it DID still mean “only begotten”.
Who to believe? The “most learned theologian” of the 4th century and almost every translation of the Bible ever produced? Or you and your 21st century trinitarian scholars who don't like the fact that Jesus had a beginning so they try as hard as they can to rewrite the facts?
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Those who promote catholic theology offer the teachings of men from 100 ad onwards.
The apostasy came early so best stick to scripture.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2010,12:07) Hi MB,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit creates[Ps104]The sonship that we can follow began at the Jordan
Hi Nick,Should we not also learn from his teachings in Proverbs and Psalms?
The wonderful counselor has actually been counseling longer than 30 A.D., IMO.
Nick, how could the Father have SENT His only begotten Son into the world if he wasn't begotten until the Jordan?
Was he also not the Son of Man until the Jordan?
Only 2 questions, Nick. Answer them for real, please.
peace and love,
mike
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